CCA's and Dave against the world !!!

[shane5408]

Hello Dave,

 

Looks like your having heaps of fun taking on the financial institutions world! I am currently fighting monument, natwest and capital one for my charges back. I read your thread earlier on noticed a particular letter that monument sent to you in relation to the CCA agreement not being valid they said:

 

''Dear Mr firewalker

Thank you for your letter dated 2 April 2007.

We note that you consider the documentation sent to you in our letter of 27 March 2007 not to satisfy section 78(1 )(a) of the Consumer Credit Act (“the Act”).

 

True Copy

Section 78(1) of the Act states that, amongst other things, the creditor shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement. The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (“the Regulations”) provide that any copy of the agreement supplied to a debtor should be a ‘true’ copy. Regulation 3(2) provides that a copy may omit certain information, including the signature box, signature and date of signature. g

The copy provided by us to you is a ‘true’ copy even if the signature box and/or signatures are not included. ''

 

In particular the bold part is what interested me, as I'm sure you know all of Monuments CCA agreements are simply 'rapid reply type applications' that only contain the customers name address, signature and NO signature from monument, only a stamp which is dated!! I was hoping to challenge the validity of my CCA on these grounds. I was under the impression that the CCA had to have signatures from both parties. However, if what they said in the above letter is true and certain info can be omitted, well there goes my argument!! Some clarity would be most welcome!!!

 

kind regards,

shane

 

 

[davefirewalker]

Hi Shane

 

It's a bit confusing......you'll have to bear with me

 

A TRUE copy of the agreement must be that.......but they are allowed to leave out names, adresses and non relevant information.

 

However to supply you with a true copy or to enforce any debt they must have the original as a reference. (so why not supply that? )

 

S.61 of the CCA says

 

61 Signing of agreement

 

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

 

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

 

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

 

(2) In addition, where the agreement is one to which section 58(1) applies, it is not properly executed unless—

 

(a) the requirements of section 58(1) were complied with, and

 

(b) the unexecuted agreement was sent, for his signature, to the debtor or hirer by post not less than seven days after a copy of it was given to him under section 58(1), and

 

© during the consideration period, the creditor or owner refrained from approaching the debtor or hirer (whether in person, by telephone or letter, or in any other way) except in response to a specific request made by the debtor or hirer after the beginning of the consideration period, and

 

(d) no notice of withdrawal by the debtor or hirer was received by the creditor or owner before the sending of the unexecuted agreement.

 

 

(3) In subsection (2)©, “the consideration period” means the period beginning with the giving of the copy under section 58(1) and ending—

 

(a) at the expiry of seven days after the day on which the unexecuted agreement is sent, for his signature, to the debtor or hirer, or

 

(b) on its return by the debtor or hirer after signature by him,

 

whichever first occurs.

 

(4) Where the debtor or hirer is a partnership or an unincorporated body of persons, subsection (1)(a) shall apply with the substitution for “by the debtor or hirer” of “by or on behalf of the debtor or hirer”.

 

OK so it needs two signatures to be "properly" executed.

 

the consequence of IMPROPER execution is that they have to go to court to get it enforced.

 

This can also happen if certain things are missing from the agreement, ie rights of protection, default charges, etc

 

HOWEVER........there are certain things that MUST be on the document and these are

 

credit limit

amount of credit

rate of interest

repayments

 

without these if the agreement is before Apr 2007 then it is unenforceable FULL STOP.

 

hope this helps a little

 

Dav

[shane5408]

Wow, that some answer!! It'll take me a while to digest all of that I think! So what it all comes down to is that regardless of whether or not they are 'allowed' to send a CCA which omits certain info they must have the original which does have their signature in order to enforce it.

 

you mentioned that:

 

'the consequence of IMPROPER execution is that they have to go to court to get it enforced'

 

I'm guessing that there is going to be a fee for them to do this, do you know how much it will cost them? Just thinking along the lines that my balance with them isn't huge and if it costs them a fair bit to have to enforce it they may chose not to.

 

kind regards,

shane

[davefirewalker]

Hi Shane if yours was anything at all like mine...then they dont have a hope.

 

to enforce an improperly executed agreement they have to explain to the judge why they left the important stuff off.......judges take a very dim veiw of creditors not doing things right.

 

they may not even take you to court because of that....

 

anyways have a read and a think...its your call after all

 

rgds

dave

[davefirewalker]

OK guys......

 

More Interesting developments !

 

My monument account has been changed to a barclaycard account with a different number. They never informed me about the change it just happened.

 

Even though the debt is in dispute and subject to legal proceedings, they are still adding charges and interest

 

Just sent them a WTF do you think you are doing! and a "I do not acknowledge any debt to your company etc."

 

Monument (barclays) have just had a default judgement against them for my charges...........they wrote a very nice letter explaining that they could ask for a set aside........but.....in this case they will pay up as long as I agree to certain conditions......yeah right, thats going to happen

 

Just in the process of composing a get stuffed letter. give me my money......without any conditions or I will send the bailiffs in

 

Morgan stanley have gone VERY quiet, and MBNA are now getting a bit anxious........

 

I love this game

 

Dave

[shane5408]

Hey Dave,

 

thats great news about monument! did they not respond to your claim in the necessary time period and you entered judgement against them?

 

I'm also fighting monument, filed my claim a few weeks ago and they had until last fri 13th (of all days!!) to respond which they didn't S I've sent in a request for judgement to my court.

 

In relation to them changing your account to a barclays one i thought that they were taken over by raphaels bank? Seems a bit strange.

 

kind regards,

shane

[shane5408]

Hey Dave,

 

thats great news about monument! did they not respond to your claim in the necessary time period and you entered judgement against them?

 

I'm also fighting monument, filed my claim a few weeks ago and they had until last fri 13th (of all days!!) to respond which they didn't S I've sent in a request for judgement to my court.

 

In relation to them changing your account to a barclays one i thought that they were taken over by raphaels bank? Seems a bit strange.

 

kind regards,

shane

 

 

Ignore my last post Dave just spent the last few mins reading up on your thread and i can see You were only claiming PPI against monument. Out of interest though, did they owe you any charges as well?

 

regards,

shane

[davefirewalker]

Ignore my last post Dave just spent the last few mins reading up on your thread and i can see You were only claiming PPI against monument. Out of interest though, did they owe you any charges as well?

 

regards,

shane

 

You haven't read it properly then

 

The default judgement was for charges to the account, the PPI they are defending.....I dont get that, I would Have thought it would be the other way round. The dont stand an earthly with the PPI !!!

 

Mind you the charges were only about £200 not bad for ten years....

 

I have just wrote this and am wondering about whether or not to send it ...do you think it's a bit harsh ?

 

Dear Sir

 

With regard to my recent default judgement against Barclays, I will not agree to anything other than informing the court you have paid. However I may for an extra consideration comply with your request. If the tables were reversed would you allow me any options or would I have bailiffs knocking on my door?

 

I will accept a further 50% (approx) of your estimated costs and I will sign the order.

 

Any payments must be made by cheque to me at the address at the top of this letter, and any payments must be made before any agreement to set aside is signed. It is in your interest to act quickly.

 

You may, if you wish apply for the set aside, but I am sure that this route will involve you in more costs.

 

If this happens and I have to attend court I will apply for a wasted costs order as well.

 

I do not see any benefit in you pursuing this course of action. A set aside will cost you a further £65, a trip to court for one, maybe two solicitors would put another couple of hundred pounds on top of that. The chances of getting a judgement in your favour are slim at best. It just does not seem financially and economically sound.

 

I expect the cheque for £ 300 by return

 

What do you think?

 

with a county court judgement against them they cannot continue as a creditor or hold a consumer credit licence (I think)

 

they are obviously going to be motivated to clear this as quickly as possible

 

Dave

[shane5408]

you're right, i didn't read it properly!!

 

To harsh, not a chance!! I have to admit there are a few moments when i feel a bit sorry for the customer services agent whom i've just obliterated on the phone quoting this law and that literally not leaving him/her with a foot to stand on! A few seconds of feeling sorry then i remember it is the company you are dealing with not the individual and as a company of their size and standing it's utterly unacceptable for them to expect us to sit back and accept whatever charges or violations of the law they undertake. To harsh you say, NEVER!!

 

As you said with them holding a Consumer Credit license having a judgement of any kind against them probably wouldn't bode well for their future and i would think that for that reason alone they would want to settle ASAP!!

[minky93]

I think it sounds great Dave, I wish I had your way with words & knowledge also.

 

Oh how I wish I understood more,then I wouldn't be sat here day after day trawling through threads trying to glean a little bit more than I did yesterday!

 

minky xxx

[davefirewalker]

I think it sounds great Dave, I wish I had your way with words & knowledge also.

 

Oh how I wish I understood more,then I wouldn't be sat here day after day trawling through threads trying to glean a little bit more than I did yesterday!

 

minky xxx

 

We all have to start somewhere......When I first started here I didnt make a post for over a month.........terified of being shot down. But I found one subject that interested me and concentrated on that. I then got copies of the relevant legislations and read. Anything I didnt understand I asked about.

 

Dont worry it'll come

 

rgds

 

Dave

[ODC]

I think it sounds great Dave, I wish I had your way with words & knowledge also.

 

Oh how I wish I understood more,then I wouldn't be sat here day after day trawling through threads trying to glean a little bit more than I did yesterday!

 

minky xxx

 

We all have to start somewhere......When I first started here I didnt make a post for over a month.........terified of being shot down. But I found one subject that interested me and concentrated on that. I then got copies of the relevant legislations and read. Anything I didnt understand I asked about.

 

Dont worry it'll come

 

rgds

 

Dave

I agree with Dave. There is plenty of information available on here. If you are not sure of anything just ask. You will get the TRUTH on here. Certainly any 'advise' you get from a DCA will be far from unbiased.

[shane5408]

I agree with Dave. There is plenty of information available on here. If you are not sure of anything just ask. You will get the TRUTH on here. Certainly any 'advise' you get from a DCA will be far from unbiased.

 

DCA's, tusk, tusk. I remember when I would quake in my boots whenever a DCA called me! One even threatened to advertise my debt in the local papers unless i paid up!!

 

Not anymore though; with the help of CAG there's always a solution!

[ODC]

DCA's, tusk, tusk. I remember when I would quake in my boots whenever a DCA called me! One even threatened to advertise my debt in the local papers unless i paid up!!

 

Not anymore though; with the help of CAG there's always a solution!

Didnt we all. The threats and sleepless nights I endured because of their lies. Now they are the ones with the sleepless nights as their Bully bonuses are decreasing. What a horrible job:lol:

[shane5408]

Didnt we all. The threats and sleepless nights I endured because of their lies. Now they are the ones with the sleepless nights as their Bully bonuses are decreasing. What a horrible job:lol:

 

 

 

"Bully Bonuses!' Such a fitting term!!

[ODC]

"Bully Bonuses!' Such a fitting term!!

Well lets face it thats all they are. They supplement there meagre salaries by getting a percentage of what they can cheat, lie, bully and threaten people into paying. That explains their total disregard for the rules and so called standards they are supposed to comply with. Greed is a terrible thing. I cannot think of a more unethical job to be in.

[vinegarvera]

I think it sounds great Dave, I wish I had your way with words & knowledge also.

 

Oh how I wish I understood more,then I wouldn't be sat here day after day trawling through threads trying to glean a little bit more than I did yesterday!

 

minky xxx

 

 

My sentiments exactly!!

[ODC]

My sentiments exactly!!

Im sure Dave and all the other wont mind if you use or adapt his posts:)

[minky93]

I'm sure Dave and all the other wont mind if you use or adapt his posts:)

 

Thanks ODC I will do if you think that Dave & the originators won't mind.

I have that much info on my desktop, Consumer Credit Act PDF files, amendments to the acts, various standard letters and numerous word docs that I have cobbled together from bits and pieces that my desktop is beginning to look like Spaghetti Junction, I really must start and organise it all now. The problem is the more I read the less I seem to know if that makes sense and all the legal jargon is going over my head at the moment but I am trying! I am very trying actually or so my hubby says lol..

 

Thanks Guys

[davefirewalker]

Feel free with any of mine

 

BTW

 

I am in the process of toying with an idea........

 

I would like to put together a website.....NOT a forum, more a sort of reference site, with structured access.

 

I know how hard it is trying to find anything on here more than a few weeks old.

 

I envisage this to be a sort of CCA for dummies (no insults intended)

 

It wont replace CAG but would supplement it, you could look up the important info and download the docs.

 

what do you all think ?? is it worthwhile

 

rgds

 

Dave

[minky93]

Hiya Dave

 

Thanks for that...

 

With regard to the CAG for Dummies Site I think it is a brilliant idea... I really do.

 

I know when I was advised to send a CCA request, I think it took me day to find it lol.... it is hard when you are new and still finding your way around and I think most will agree, terrified as well because you have just got the nasty letter from the DCA threatening to break both legs together with court action and when someone says send a CCA req and it takes ages and ages to find it in your panicked state, you panic more than ever. I know I did and why because deep down you believe what the DCA has threatened and this evasive letter will solve your problems lol...

I think if the information is readily available and easy to find all in one place... it will save a lot of near heart attacks.

 

Thanks Dave! where are you thinking of hosting the website on your ISP web space,server?

 

Brill Idea I hope it come to fruition.

 

minky xxx

[miss muppet]

Excellent idea Dave, as already stated it can be a nightmare finding your way around whether you are a new member or of longer standing.

[vinegarvera]

When can I join????

[Alphageek]

Dave, I would offer to maintain it as a part of CAG.

 

As for being able to find things, here's an idea for the mods and web-designer... and anyone else who's interested

 

You know when you type in the letters SA and R together, the forum software replaces it with S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), well why not make it a hyperlink to the relevant template library post?

 

Same for CCA, DCA, MCOL and all the other abbreviations we get to know on here after a while.

 

I don't know what you do for a living, but maintaining a website that might get thousands of visitors an hour is not as easy as some think.

 

Anyway, I have personally learned so much from this thread and your other posts that I would like to think you can keep your knowledge and advice under the CAG umbrella.

 

I think the CAG Wiki might be a good place.

[davefirewalker]

No-one has to join......it will be a reference site....FREE to all

 

IT WONT BE A FORUM

 

I'm not leaving the CAG or setting up a rival site

 

As said, I (and others) will try to break down the various parts of the CCA 1974 into manageable chunks and try to explain the various parts and how it affects the agreement

 

We could use it to point someone to, who has asked a question that has been asked a million times before, and so he might get bypassed.

 

there will be a section on template letters, some simple, some more involved.

 

I will try to get ALL the relevant acts together and put them for download.

 

The thing is that the important stuff wont get lost in the bowels of an enormous thread

 

And yes I do have some small experience in IT.....I will be hosting it myself

 

Anyway it may be a week or two before I test it...I need to get it sorted first

 

I dont think it will be an easy task either

 

rgds

 

Dave