djdave vs Cabot

[Seahorse]

If an approach from the OFT makes a trader change its behaviour and treat consumers fairly in future, this is preferable to putting a trader out of business.

 

Look, Ken. It's easy. Take this subtle hint and GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER!!!!!!!

 

Maybe then, you'll have HAPPY customers. There now, it's not so difficult after all.

[ODC]

 

Look, Ken. It's easy. Take this subtle hint and GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER!!!!!!!

 

Maybe then, you'll have HAPPY customers. There now, it's not so difficult after all.

It is if you are a greedy moneygrabbing supercillious twit

[Seahorse]

:eek::eek::eek:

[djdave]

I've just got back from a weekend up north to find the M25 gridlocked, my lawn infested with slugs, and the weather awful.

 

But to cheer me up, the Financial Ombudsman Service have written saying that my complaint has been passed to their casework support area awaiting allocation to an investigation team. Thanks guys

[ODC]

What were the DCA operatives doing on your lawn:confused:

[Dibsthefrenchie]

Wouldn't it be great if salt also made DCA's disappear!

[pmhcfc]

Wouldn't it be great if salt also made DCA's disappear!

 

Naa, we have CCA requests that do the same job ;-)

[ODC]

Wouldn't it be great if salt also made DCA's disappear!

 

Naa, we have CCA requests that do the same job ;-)

Strange that they cannot cope when the law is used against them. They are the people who are going to bankrupt you, get a charge on your house, sell your goods. Suddenly you inform them of your rights and quicker than you can say ''By the way the Law of Property Act does not apply'' they pass it on down the food chain.

[djdave]

Nearly two months after asking Cabot to clarify some points, I've finally received a reply. Apologies for any typos, I scanned it rather than typing it all out!

 

My comments are in red:

 

CABOT REFERENCE xxxxxx - VENDOR BARCLAYCARD

 

Thank you for your letter, which was received in our office on 31st August 2007. May I apologise for the delay in responding to you.

 

I regret that you have felt the need to contact Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited ("Cabot") to express your dissatisfaction about our service.

 

I note from your letter that you have raised various points and I will respond to them in the order, which you have raised them.

 

Firstly, Cabot supplied you with a copy of the credit agreement (you mean you supplied an application form, missing pretty much all the prescribed terms, damned near illegible, and not signed by Barclaycard) , which you agreed and consented to with Barciaycard. We also enclose a copy statement of your account since your account was assigned to the Cabot Financial Group of Companies and we are to receive the statements of your account from Barclaycard shortly, upon which the same wiil be forwarded to you.

 

It is clear that you have signed the credit agreement (application form, but I'll let that go for the moment). You will note that this is a regulated credit agreement for the purposes of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which is supported by your signature in acceptance. Furthermore, in consideration of your acceptance of the agreement, you received the availability of credit from Barclaycard by way of a credit card, which you have clearly used. Please be advised that the credit agreement, which you signed, proves that you signed and entered into an agreement. The statement of your account, which we will receive from Barclaycard, will prove that there was an outstanding debt at the time of the assignment of your account. Once we have provided the statement of account it is enough to satisfy that the debt exists. (really?)

 

Secondly, regarding your query relating to the company registration numbers, I can clarify that this debt was assigned to Cabot Financial (UK) Limited by Barclaycard and Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited act as servicing company for the Cabot Financial Group of Companies. In order to save any confusion, we collectively defined the companies concerned as the Cabot Financial Group in previous correspondence. Please note that defining the above companies to the Cabot Financial Group was not intended to confuse or mislead the situation (now call me cynical, but I believe that's exactly why there are so many "Cabots"). Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited and Cabot Financial (UK) Limited are part of the Cabot Financial Group of Companies. For the sake of clarity, we will forthwith refer to the individual companies concerned in full.

 

Thirdly, I note from your letter that you would like Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited to confirm if the Notice of Assignment sent to you on 16th April 2007 is a genuine copy of a document supplied to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited by Barciaycard. I can clarify that the Notice of Assignment we sent to you is a reproduction copy of the Notice of Assignment that Barciaycard provided to Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited. (Strange this. I have it in writing from Barclaycard's data protection manager that no such document exists. I think Cabot forgot the word "conjectured")

 

Fourthly, In relation to your concern regarding the processing of your data, Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited is legally entitled and obligated under the original credit agreement and under the Data Protection Act to process information and also to report to the credit reference agencies. We disclose information to credit reference agencies about customers' conduct of their accounts because that disclosure is necessary for the purposes of legitimate interests pursued by us, other members of the credit industry and the credit reference agencies. Credit reference agencies hold such data and disclose it to prospective lenders because that is, similarly, necessary for the purposes of the same legitimate interests. Furthermore, under the original terms of the credit agreement, which you signed with the creditor, you consented to information being disclosed to third parties and credit reference agencies (I dispute this, but the application form is so hard to read that I honestly couldn't say. But then, as it's only an application form, and missing prescribed terms, surely I've never given my consent). Accordingly, the Data Protection Act, section 4, Schedule 1 and Schedule 2 of the Act, in particular paragraph 6 of Schedule 2, permits disclosure of such information to and by credit reference agencies without the customers' consent. The credit reference agencies that we have reported your data to are Experian, Equifax and Callcredit. We have also sent your personal data to our debt recovery agents, which are Logic (Eos) and Scotcall for the recovery of the outstanding balance due under the agreement. You would have agreed to pass on your data regarding this issue when you signed the agreement (application form! How many more times?), which would have been included in the terms and conditions applicable at that time.

 

Lastly, regarding your subject notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 ("Data Protection Act"), we have previously set out our position regarding this issue. Section 10(1) of the Data Protection Act states:

"Subject to subsection (2), an individual is entitled at any time by notice in writing to a data controller to require the data controller at the end of such period as is reasonable in the circumstances to cease, or not to begin, processing, or processing for a specified purpose or in a specified manner, any personal data in respect of which he is the data subject, on the ground, for specified reason -

(a) the processing of those data or their processing for that purpose or in that manner is causing or is likely to cause substantial damage or substantial distress to him or to another, and

(b) that damage or distress is or would be unwarranted."

Section 10(2) of the DPA states:

"Subsection (1) does not apply

(a) in a case where any ofthe conditions in paragraphs 1 to 4 of Schedule 2 is met, or (b) in such other cases as may be prescribed by the Secretary of State by order."

I refer your attention to paragraphs 1 to 4 of Schedule 2 of the DPA, which states:

"Conditions Relevant for purposes of the First Principle: Processing of any Personal Data

The data subject has given his consent to the processing. 2. The processing is necessary

For the performance of a contract to which the data subject is a party, or

For the taking of steps at the request of the data subject with a view to entering into a contract

The processing is necessary for compliance with any legal obligation to which the data controller is subject, other than an obligation imposed by contract.

The processing in order to protect the vital interests of the data subject. "

 

You shall note that section 10(2)(a) of the OPA the words "any of the conditions" and paragraph 1 and 2 of Schedule 2 of the OPA are entirely relevant to your case. As you signed a credit agreement which has been assigned to Cabot Financial (UK) Limited, of which the terms we are entitled to enforce, section 10(1) of the OPA does not apply to your circumstances.

 

Cabot Financial (Europe) Limited and the Cabot Financial Group of Companies have at all times acted appropriately and in accordance with all laws, regulations, codes of practice and guidance applicable to its industry. (Apart from failing to respond to a CCA request within the statutory timescale [and even then only with an application form], failing to reply to a Data Subject Notice within the statutory timescale, unlawfully processing and sharing my data)

 

I can confirm that the outstanding balance on your account is £xxxx and that interest has been accruing on this account. I can also confirm that we have received correspondence from the Financial Ombudsman Service who have duly notified us that your concerns do not fall within their jurisdiction as these were raised in February 2007, therefore prior to 6th April 2007.(and this, ladies and gentlemen, is why the CSA / DBSG can proudly boast about how few complaints the FOS has handled, and therefore claim that DCAs are lovely as nobody ever moans about them!)

 

In light of this, I would respectfully recommend you contact our Collections Team on 0845 0700 116, within 14 days, in order to discuss repayment of the above account. If no contact is made within these 14 days, Cabot reserves the right to return your account to our Collections process.

 

We trust this adequately resolves your concerns. In the meantime, please do not hesitate to contact us on 01732 524723 if you have any further queries. The Customer Assurance department is open from 9am to 5pm Monday to Friday.

 

Laura Jolliffe

Customer Assurance Adviser

 

So in a nutshell, Cabot are saying that they've done nothing wrong and please give us some money. Seeing as all I've ever had from them is a totally unenforcable application form, and seeing as how the FOS don't want to get involved, I'm wondering what my next move should be.

 

I'm tempted to just sit back and let them try Court action. I'd be interested to see how their application form photocopy goes down with a judge.

 

Worst case scenario, I'm on long-term incapacity benefit so even if I lost in Court I can't see a judge ordering particularly massive payments.

 

Any advice, please?

[ODC]

Really Dave you have F all to lose. I would be sorely tempted to invite them to take you to court. There is plenty of case law to beat them over the head with and in my opinion if they were so sure of their facts then they would have taken you to court long ago. They are the so called professionals paying big bucks to legal advisors. They have winged it before with application forms and got away with it because the 'Rogue Debtor' did not query them. However the law is quite clear about what is acceptable as an executed CCA. They obviously read your threads with great interest at Cabot Towers so they know you will not be put off by meaningless doublespeak and downright untruths. Its probably time M'learned friends hit them where it hurts.

[ScarletPimpernel]

As an aside, I suspect that Laura didn't write this. The language, and particularly the rather odd 'you shall note' suggests that it was written by someone for whom English is not their first language - a Belgian, for example.

 

There are two other things that strike me about the letter. Firstly, the way in which the writer continually refers to the application form as an agreement, in the hope that you will think it to be the truth. A subscriber to Goebbels' maxim that if you tell a big enough lie, and tell it often enough, people will come to believe it, perhaps? Secondly, the use of a psychological device (the 'dripping tap'), whereby they continually refer to the signing of the 'agreement', again used to try to convince the reader that it must be true.

 

The glossing over of their own wrongdoings by a single sentence denial shows their arrogance. Sadly, one of the reasons they can do this is that the regulators have failed to grasp the nettle and show these creatures who is in charge.

 

I think that in Dave's position, I'd tell them to put up or shut up. It might be interesting to subpoena Laura Jollife, and see if she's able to put Cabot's case as fluently and (un)convincingly as she seems to do in writing...

[djdave]

They obviously read your threads with great interest at Cabot Towers...

That would not surprise me one iota. I'm sure they worked out long ago who that mysterious djdave is!

 

As an aside, I suspect that Laura didn't write this. The language, and particularly the rather odd 'you shall note' suggests that it was written by someone for whom English is not their first language - a Belgian, for example.

WWell wwell wwell!

[ODC]

As an aside, I suspect that Laura didn't write this. The language, and particularly the rather odd 'you shall note' suggests that it was written by someone for whom English is not their first language - a Belgian, for example....

Wonder if this is the same Laura Joliffe who had such a crap holiday in Kavos

[make them aktiv runners]

It is clear that you have signed the credit agreement (application form, but I'll let that go for the moment). You will note that this is a regulated credit agreement for the purposes of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which is supported by your signature in acceptance. Furthermore, in consideration of your acceptance of the agreement, you received the availability of credit from Barclaycard by way of a credit card, which you have clearly used. Please be advised that the credit agreement, which you signed, proves that you signed and entered into an agreement. The statement of your account, which we will receive from Barclaycard, will prove that there was an outstanding debt at the time of the assignment of your account. Once we have provided the statement of account it is enough to satisfy that the debt exists. (really?)

Actually it is true, it proves the debt exists. It does not however, prove you were not subject to ID theft, or the debt is legally enforceable.

[djdave]

Here's a question. Going back to the original application form (link below), section 10 refers to "Personal Data" but the box isn't ticked.

 

Sadly I cannot read the text, so don't know whether it's an opt-in or an opt-out.

 

Does anybody have a more legible copy of a Barclaycard application form from the same sort of date (1996) which would contain the same text?

 

Here's the linky:

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s185/djdave2007/cabotapp.jpg

 

[Seahorse]

It's not exactly the same form as mine, but my box was to be ticked if I DID consent to my data being shared. Which I didn't.

 

Barclaycard have sent me a nice letter telling me they are investigating. I think I shall respond by telling them they are selling debts which, being unenforcable by virtue of the fact that no credit agreement exists, and therefore carries no benefit but rather a burden, their actions might very well be construed as fraud. In other words, why are they stitching up Cabot by selling them debts they have no hope of collecting?

 

[ODC]

In other words, why are they stitching up Cabot by selling them debts they have no hope of collecting?

 

You almost sound as if you care about Cabot be saddled with a load of unenforceable debts:eek:

[Seahorse]

Well, I've been thinking. There IS a need for companies such as Cabot. And my only real gripe with them is is the way the operate. But really, if the lenders hadn't been so short sighted and thought they could get away with shorcutting the CCA, none of this would be an issue.

 

So really, the fault mostly lies with the OCs. IMVHO. And if Cabot would just put up their hands when challenged, I'd have no problem with them at all. Unfortunately, they continue to put their fingers in their ears and go LA, LA, LA. So losing any respect or credibility that they might otherwise have enjoyed.

 

OTHER DCA's operate lawfully and ethically. Why can't Cabot?

[ODC]

OTHER DCA's operate lawfully and ethically. Why can't Cabot?

Those that do are very few and far between.

[djdave]

Well I've sent them a letter which is far too long and dull to bother you with here, but can be summarised thus:

 

Dear Feckers,

Put up or shut up.

Yours sincerly etc

[ODC]

Well I've sent them a letter which is far too long and dull to bother you with here, but can be summarised thus:

 

Dear Feckers,

 

Put up or shut up.

 

Yours sincerly etc

 

To be honest that would probably have been a response that they may have actually understood better;)

[Conniff]

It is clear that you have signed the credit agreement (application form, but I'll let that go for the moment). You will note that this is a regulated credit agreement for the purposes of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, which is supported by your signature in acceptance. Furthermore, in consideration of your acceptance of the agreement, you received the availability of credit from Barclaycard by way of a credit card, which you have clearly used. Please be advised that the credit agreement, which you signed, proves that you signed and entered into an agreement. The statement of your account, which we will receive from Barclaycard, will prove that there was an outstanding debt at the time of the assignment of your account. Once we have provided the statement of account it is enough to satisfy that the debt exists. (really?)

 

Actually it is true, it proves the debt exists. It does not however, prove you were not subject to ID theft, or the debt is legally enforceable.

 

It certainly does not prove the debt exists. You could say to them, "yes that is my application form, but it was turned down and I never had an account with them".

They would then have to show you the 'signed' agreement.

[ODC]

It certainly does not prove the debt exists. You could say to them, "yes that is my application form, but it was turned down and I never had an account with them".

They would then have to show you the 'signed' agreement.

Good point, BUT

 

If you were turned down why did you continue to make monthly payments.

[Edz11]

Go back to basics... prescribed terms = not enforceable (unless you have a post 2006 CCA agreement. Then it gets more sticky).

[andrew1]

Go back to basics... prescribed terms = not enforceable (unless you have a post 2006 CCA agreement. Then it gets more sticky).

 

Would you like to explain to the multitudes why this to be so EEdz11?