Kick the DCA's where it hurts lol

[gizmo111]

As some of you are aware I have had this brought to my attention and it has also been discussed with BankFodder. We are as a team, discussing the best way forward to minimise work for the team and also ease of reference for users old and new. Due to other site problems, whilst we see this as a very important thing on the agenda, it is unlikey that we will make any further changes till Thursday morning, please be patient.

 

I would just like to add, that whilst I understand people are frustrated and tempers are short, insults to team members are not helpful in getting things sorted. Please bear with us for a short while longer.

[tbern123]

Thanks Gizmo, I think that is all people really wanted to know. We do all really appreciate the hard work that the site helpers, mods and admin do.

 

Initially it felt that the appreciation wasn't mutual and I am sorry if a mountain has been made out of a mole hill.

[caro]

Does that mean that technically this is the end of discussion and that further debate is pointless ?

 

Absolutely not, as Gizmo has confirmed.

 

I have given my personal opinion based on the information as it seems to me now, but am always willing to listen. No decision is ever set in stone and the site has grown and evolved as ideas and information has changed. If anyone has any new points to raise, I'm sure it will help with the decision making process.

[BankFodder]

The signature problem was an oversight on my part. Sorry.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Here's one style of querying possible problems:-

 

Oh, aye. I see there's no signatures either. What's THAT all about?

 

 

Here's another:

 

Oh by the way, I see that there are no signatures in the new forums. Is that deliberate or can signatures be activated please.

Which one of these two approaches sounds like some pushy DCA which has forgotten (or decided to disregard) any kind of interpersonal skills?

 

Which approach do you prefer?

[pmhcfc]

 

I would just like to add, that whilst I understand people are frustrated and tempers are short, insults to team members are not helpful in getting things sorted. Please bear with us for a short while longer.

 

CAG only exists because of the people - not because of the people who run it (I'm sure you can understand what I mean)

 

If the people who run it seriously think we (The CFC) wouldn't be upset if you give us something (the Cabot sub-forum) and then take it away, then that's probably an oversight on your part. There are 8 'members' of the original CFC - have been for over a year, and still we all remain working hard on exposing Cabot for who they really are. Me personaly? Ive dedicated countless hours in 'reasearch' exposing some of their unlawful practices, but I'm not alone - all of us have put in countless hours.

 

I'm sure Cabot are very happy that they've been allowed to drift out of the limelight and merge (to be lost) with every other DCA.

 

As far as the sub-forum for each DCA argument goes, I've been saying for a year it should happen. From what I can tell, the reason why that will never happen is because it'll be too much like hard work for the Mods on here to maintain.

 

The Cabot sub-forum was a complete success - but that appears to count for nothing....what a crying shame that is. I do not doubt that BF and the others work tirelessly to keep this site up and running, but that doesn't mean I think they're 100% right all of the time.

 

Lastly, I cannot understand why the Mods on here are so happy to lose (from CAG) people who have been so dedicated, hardworking, helpful to others, useful, interesting, supportitve and, above all, a royal pain in the butt to the DCA's who operate outside of the law.

[babybear39]

BF we understand that you all work hard, but so do we.

 

The time for the nastiest DCAs to have their own sub-forums is way overdue. This would make it much easier for the people with the most experience of dealing with them and their tactics to help others in need of urgent advice.

 

I for one don't stick to particular DCAs, but I do look for and help with threads about DCAs I am experienced with.

[tifo]

would be a good idea to have a seperate sub forum for the bigger DCA's, such as Lowells, Fredrickson and Tessera. These are some that i have dealt with.

 

definately one for Lowells.

[BankFodder]

CAG only exists because of the people - not because of the people who run it (I'm sure you can understand what I mean)

 

 

The Cabot forum disappeared as part of the data loss problem. We are still trying to deal with the fallout from it. Count yourselves lucky ( I certainly do) that there is any forum at all in existence today. It was only by very good luck that we were able to reinstate it at all.

 

When we have sorted everything out then we will see where we are.

 

We may even consider having a number of separate subforums but for the moment we are still trying to repair the damage caused by Saturday evening's disaster. To say that the cabot forum has been taken away from you really shows a complete lack of understanding of the situation. The fact is that we had a complete data breakdown and we almost lost everything - really EVERYTHING. CAG had a near-death experience.

 

You should actually be congratulating the 24 volunteers who worked extremely hard throughout Satuday evening and most of Sunday trying to rescue the situation and with some brilliant luck and a very good webmaster, managed to have the forum broadly working again by Monday morning - and from that point of view, I can promise you that at the moment, CAG exists only because of the people who run it. (I hope that you can understand what I mean.)

[BankFodder]

BF we understand that you all work hard, but so do we.

 

.....

 

I for one don't stick to particular DCAs, but I do look for and help with threads about DCAs I am experienced with.

 

 

We appreciate very much all of the efforts of the people who contribute their own time and knowledge to help others. It goes without saying that his is what the CAG has become and it is what the CAG is all about.

 

It is this which gives us all Community.

[pmhcfc]

You should actually be congratulating the 24 volunteers who worked extremely hard throughout Satuday evening and most of Sunday trying to rescue the situation and with some brilliant luck and a very good webmaster, managed to have the forum broadly working again by Monday morning - and from that point of view, I can promise you that at the moment, CAG exists only because of the people who run it. (I hope that you can understand what I mean.)

 

I'm not saying I'm not thankful (because I am), I'm just saying that many of us have worked extremely hard too...I didn't want that fact lost either.

 

I hope the Cabot sub-forum will be reinstated (as well as some others for the bigger DCA's) as I'd hate to see so many hours of intense hard work tossed by the wayside.

 

And BF, I have said many times before, and on more than one forum, that you should be knighted for all that you've done- so anything I've said re sub-forums is nothing personal.

[caro]

The threads and information are still on the site as far as I know. If someone would link threads or send information that is particularly important to retain in a prominent position or library of information, we can look at the best way of making it clearly available for yourselves and future users of the site. It's likely that much of it could be equally relevant to other DCAs, so its important to be sure that useful information is readily available to everyone, in true CAG fashion. Were there particular threads that you feel should be considered as stickies, or particularly important discussion threads?

 

It might be easier to make an informed decision if we have a clearer picture of precisely what the issues are, and why it is so important that it is in one forum. If you would like to PM links to me I will be pleased to help.

 

I think it's worth remembering that even though the banks have seperate forums, the templates for all of them, and other useful information is stored in the CAG libraries, as the basic methods for making claims are exactly the same. With the DCAs all subject to the same statutes it seems reasonable to believe that reference information in the library would be extremely useful to share with our many fellow caggers.

[tifo]

You should actually be congratulating the 24 volunteers who worked extremely hard throughout Satuday evening and most of Sunday trying to rescue the situation and with some brilliant luck and a very good webmaster

 

I fully understand what you mean, working in IT myself. Data recovery is never easy, especially with such a huge forum.

 

I think the site is run by both the people who 'run' it in the background and those who use it. Without one another there would be nothing.

 

Let's not forget this site has saved and given people a lot of money and given them self empowerment. We should appreciate the hard work on both sides.

[babybear39]

Yup...CAG is a 2 way street

[caro]

CAG is a 2 way street which is why it is so important that any information that caggers have found is shared for the benefit of everyone. This is why it is so important that any research is in the public domain and peoples progress and advice is on their threads, and one very good reason why we tend not to help people by PM or email.

 

Another reason is to protect ourselves and others from potential problems and so that advice can be checked, and sometimes corrected and added to on the site.

 

If the Cabot Fan Club feel that it is inappropriate for this to happen I'm not sure what CAG can do to help because that is how CAG succeeds.

[tbern123]

The other aspect of it is, if there were different sub-sub-forums (!) is that people might not check one with which they are not familiar, even though they could probably answered it. If I saw a Mercers one, for example, I might decide I don't know anything about them, so leave it. But it turns out it was a 10 year old debt and so I could have easily told the OP to send the statute-barred letter, and problem solved.

 

Speaking for myself, I see little to be gained by separating the different DCAs.

 

With the up most respect Bookworm couldn't the sameapply to Banks ?

 

A Natwest customer may not check the Barclays forum even though most of the Banks use exactly the same tactics and the process to reclaim charges from Banks is virtually identical.

 

A Barclays customer might ask a question about a N1, that a NatWest customer knows the answer too..

 

With so many different threads regarding different companies, new threads can easily be missed. For example, if I started a new thread now and within the next couple of hours 30 posts are made within threads of this forum my thread would be lost and no one would even beaware that I asked a question.

[Bookworm]

Yes, absolutely, but the difference, as Caro pointed out, is that the templates and FAQs are all kept in one place. The classification of banks by name is just an easy way to keep them organised, due to the sheer volume of threads, which can hardly be said to be the same for DCAs.

 

Also, once you have a claim with one bank, it stays with that bank, unlike the DCAs which play pass the parcel with one another.

[pt2537]

Can i ask what the Difference is between Cabot and the other DCAs that we deal with?

 

I help people within the debt forums deal with a variety of DCA's and from having a read of the Cabot threads they appear to be very similar

 

the usual tactics from what i can gather are that they default on the 12 working days to supply a copy of the credit agreement as prescribed by Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1569)

 

they seem to breach many of the OFT guidelines on debt collection

 

they seem to use the Section 136 Law of Property Act 1925 arguments for not having to supply a copy of the credit agreement

 

in fact i have seen nothing which makes me think that Cabot operates differently to any other DCA.

 

it would be helpful if someone could just confirm what the differences are between Cabot and others

 

Thanks

 

Regards

paul

[tbern123]

I agree that the Debt Collection Agency forum has less threads then some forums for individual banks,

 

However, could this be due to the higher empahsis previously placed on the Bank Action Group.

 

The Debt Action group continues to grow and the threads increase in number on a daily basis. Surely, this in itself would suggest that it would be better to organise this forum now, rather in say 12 months time when there are twice as many threads.

 

This is an ideal opportunity for CAG that should not be missed.Isn't it better to be proactive rather then reactive ?

 

The number of people in debt is very unlikely to decrease in the forseeable future. On the contrary, is is reported that more and more people are getting into debt and the amount of debt in the UK is at record levels.

 

Whereas dependant upon the outcome of the court case the days of the Bank Action Group in relation to charges could be numbered.

 

In relation to concerns regarding debts being passed around from one DCA to the next. Yes this does happen and as people will experiance some DCA's are more forcefull then others. Once a person has dealt with one DCA, that thread can be closed as they are dealing with a new DCA.

 

They could include a link to their old thread in their new thread.

 

DCA's do differ, some might use home visits, some might go straight to court, some might provide agreements, some might specialise in statued barred debts.

 

The only way these trends can be identified is for them to be broken up. I am not suggesting for there to be hundreds of sub forums.

 

You could create say 10 or 20 for the main ones (important to remember some are owned by the same company)

 

For Example Equidebt, ECI and Highland Associates are all one in the same, so you would only need one sub forum for all of them

[pmhcfc]

it would be helpful if someone could just confirm what the differences are between Cabot and others

 

Thanks

 

Regards

paul

 

Paul,

 

I (or should I say 'we') now know there is little or no point trying to argue the toss any further, a decision has already been made. If you had been able to take a few minutes out of your busy schedule to look into the information the Cabot sub-forum contained, then you wouldn't have to ask the above question.

 

CAG has now lost some really really important members, and there are going to be a lot of other members who are far worse of because of it. I'm not saying anyone's better than anyone else, but some people have a lot more knowledge (re DCA's and their unlawful practices) than you'll ever know.

 

I'll just leave you with one last question; Why did you give us the Cabot sub-forum in the first place?

 

...Only one winner in all of this...Cabot Financial

 

Nuff said

[tbern123]

Can i ask what the Difference is between Cabot and the other DCAs that we deal with?

 

I help people within the debt forums deal with a variety of DCA's and from having a read of the Cabot threads they appear to be very similar

 

the usual tactics from what i can gather are that they default on the 12 working days to supply a copy of the credit agreement as prescribed by Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1569)

 

they seem to breach many of the OFT guidelines on debt collection

 

they seem to use the Section 136 Law of Property Act 1925 arguments for not having to supply a copy of the credit agreement

 

in fact i have seen nothing which makes me think that Cabot operates differently to any other DCA.

 

it would be helpful if someone could just confirm what the differences are between Cabot and others

 

Thanks

 

Regards

paul

 

 

In principle doesn't Natwest use the same "tactics" as Barclays in relation to charges. ?

 

I am sorry I just can't accept the argument that all DCA's are the same as a valid argument.

 

The only way trends can be easily identified is for the information to be broken down in similar ways to companies using Management Information.

[renegotiation]

Is there any technical or other good reason why everything can't be left as it is and then duplicated in another section as subforums? Everyone would be happy then.

[tomterm8]

I agree that the Debt Collection Agency forum has less threads then some forums for individual banks,

 

However, could this be due to the higher empahsis previously placed on the Bank Action Group.

 

Maybe, however, the fact is the number of specialist debt forum moderators had trebled as a result of the most recent changes, and the number of main forums has doubled.

 

It is to be expected that the Debt Action group will increase in size further, but at the moment there are simply not enough team members specialising in debt to be able to cope with such a change.

 

i would estimate that both 1st Credit and Lowells produce far more posters than Cabot ( and yes, I am aware of the cabot forum, i used to visit it regularly).

 

The Debt Action group continues to grow and the threads increase in number on a daily basis. Surely, this in itself would suggest that it would be better to organise this forum now, rather in say 12 months time when there are twice as many threads.

 

I agree. Which is the reason that three new forums have been introduced.

 

This is an ideal opportunity for CAG that should not be missed.Isn't it better to be proactive rather then reactive ?

 

The number of people in debt is very unlikely to decrease in the forseeable future. On the contrary, is is reported that more and more people are getting into debt and the amount of debt in the UK is at record levels.

 

Actually, DCA's are set to become much less significant over the next four years in my opinion. Several DCA's have already produced profit warnings. With the new enforcement bill, and the addition of the F.O.S. potential overhead, it is becoming more cost efficient to collect debt in house.

 

Whereas dependant upon the outcome of the court case the days of the Bank Action Group in relation to charges could be numbered.

 

I think there is still substantial work to be done, for example in PPI reclaims and other fields.

 

In relation to concerns regarding debts being passed around from one DCA to the next. Yes this does happen and as people will experiance some DCA's are more forcefull then others. Once a person has dealt with one DCA, that thread can be closed as they are dealing with a new DCA.

 

This would prevent us being able to get a feel for the entire industry. i simply don't believe that industry practice is as distinctive as you make it out to be. All the major players communicate on a regular basis, and ideas from one quickly do the rounds with the others.

 

They could include a link to their old thread in their new thread.

 

DCA's do differ, some might use home visits, some might go straight to court, some might provide agreements, some might specialise in statued barred debts.

 

The only way these trends can be identified is for them to be broken up. I am not suggesting for there to be hundreds of sub forums.

 

You could create say 10 or 20 for the main ones (important to remember some are owned by the same company)

 

For Example Equidebt, ECI and Highland Associates are all one in the same, so you would only need one sub forum for all of them

 

 

 

What doesn't seem to be realised by some of the posters in this debate is that the entire consumer action group web site was lost over the weekend. Everything. It is only by dint of a huge amount of work that there is any site at all.

 

I, personally, have moved over 1,200 threads in the last week.

 

Barracad moved well over 3,000 on that weekend alone, and almost the entire team spent all day and most of the night working frantically so the site could be restored.

 

pt2537 moved over 2,00 threads.

 

There was no deep, dark plan to remove the cabot sub forum. This happened because there are priorities, and 90% of the posters in the debt action group are not dealing with Cabot. Restoring the Cabot forum would have meant not being able to restore the rest of the debt action group.

 

However, frankly, I am furious at some aspects of this debate. To describe either caro or pt2537 as being ignorant of the debt industry, or the law seems to me to lack any sence of reality.

 

Caro knows more about living with debt, and helping those in debt, than any other person I've met.

 

Anyone who reads the main forum knows how much pt2537 knows about the law, and how much he cares for the members of the debt action group.

 

There's still a place to make have a discussion over whether there should be sub forums for different DCA's, but frankly at this stage I am very alienated from the viewpoints expressed by the Cabot fan club, not because of what they say, but because of their lack of understanding at this difficult time for the site.

[tbern123]

For the avoidance of doubt and to ensure there is no confusion. I have NOT made any comments be they negative or positive about Caro or pt. For that matter any other mod, admin, site helper of CAG...

 

Secondly, I have NOT requested special treatment for a Cabot only thread. I am asking for sub forums for specific DCA's

 

I want to make the above crystal clear

 

I appreciate your comments in relation to PPI etc as I stated in my post I was referring CHARGES. It was previously stated that the Bank Action Group has more then threads and posts then the Debt Action Group. The point I was making was that a high percentage of those thread and posts relate to CHARGES.

I honestly have the upmost respect for you tomterm. I have always found your posts to be both helpful and informative. However, I disagree with your opinion in relation to the decline of the external debt collection business.

 

Using Cabot as an a prime example they have just opened a purpose built brand new head office.

 

Furthermore, Cabot are actually intending to expand into different areas of debt collection. They are considering entering into the utility debt, insurance premium portfollios and medical insurance debt. So I think it is premature to make an assumpation of this nature.

[andrew1]

tomterm, everyone in the fan club respects what people have put in..we've been on the forum most of us for getting on 2 yrs. Respect for all the posters contributing whether mods or not has never been lost and you are a classic example.

 

What happened with the sub forum brought out mixed messages from your side of the forum, some saying it was a decision to restructure, other saying a system breakdown, we were given no indications other than defensive responses as to the fors and against. It was I who PM'd Caro as I had dealt with her before and just shared the concerns we had about losing a sub forum which was so successful in helping consumers - that's all we do, just like you all, helping others - we are not on some ego trip.

 

We are so passionate because what we have uncovered with just a handful of companies and a considerable amount of research has resulted in changing the credit industry - that's not some wild statement, it's fact and we are continuing to make individuals and companies move faster than their feet will shift them. Now if that's happening in one or two companies, you can imagine what is happening in others. The Fan club don't make guesses though, we know, and we cannot post what we know, you'll have more than a broken system if we did. So all I can say is that people will just have to believe what they like and trust us, but we are saying that a sub forum for each company is nothing but a huge benefit for people coming on here, we can't always demonstrate on the open public forum how people clear or deal with their problems with these companies or make it obvious due to the tactics being used. Just take our word that they are being dealt with off forum and without the prying eyes of the MIB's, and as dedicated CAG people that what we are saying is in everyones interest.

 

I'm sorry to see people upset on both sides, there's enough other important things in life to deal with. Lets call and end to all this and get on with the important issues. You guys decide what you want to do and we'll do what we have to and can do given the restraints on time and resources just like yourselves. No-one is blaming anyone for anything - we just want to help people and make these companies act within the law - that's all.

[tomterm8]

What happened with the sub forum brought out mixed messages from your side of the forum, some saying it was a decision to restructure, other saying a system breakdown, we were given no indications other than defensive responses as to the fors and against..

 

 

I was the person who pretty much initially set out the lay out of the new debt action group (although subsequently there were lots of tweaks, changes and hard work by other members of the team) and since I was involved at every stage of the discussions prior to the actual refurbishment, I am a good person to give a definitive statement on this.

 

Prior to the refurbishment, the plan was always to have a cabot forum.

 

We then had the technical problems, which meant at one point every single cabot thread was lost, and only recovered through a lot of hard work.

 

Prior to the refurbishment we hadn't considered having forums for the other DCA's, because we have never been approached by people who are actually active with other DCA's asking for a sub forum. if there is a request for it then I am sure Marc would consider it. Five people dealing with Cabot originally asked for a cabot subforum, and the admin team decided to offer it. Not because cabot are all that unusual, but because it was percieved that this was what people involved in Cabot wanted.

 

In any case, in the optimum world, this refurnishment is only a very small intermediate step. In the long term the hope is that it would be followed by software developments that would allow people to read threads from individual DCA's, OR as the main forum is currently.

 

But that is quite far into the future.