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    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Credit AGREEMENT -or- APPLICATION? RBS Advantage Card


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Lots of new users here these last few days :)

 

 

So, here's a poser for U all... Is the following a correctly recieved credit agreement, or... Just a copy of an original application form for credit...?

 

Here it is:

 

Advanta.jpg

 

Let the posting begin!

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shop application form

 

dx100uk

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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it does not say this is a credit agreement

it just says 'credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974'

 

it is a copy of the standard shop application form, which will have text in the bottom right hand side box to the effect of 'i apply for a RBS credit card account etc etc.' ......by signing in this i agree be bound by the terms & conditions etc etc.

now if it IS a correctly received credit agreement is another matter, and it might be all there is to 'bind' the customer to a credit agreement.

 

but never the less it is an application form.

 

dx100uk:rolleyes:

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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it does not say this is a credit agreement

it just says 'credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974'

 

 

dx100uk:rolleyes:

 

Same thing. Read the small print just above the signature.... "This is a Credit Agreement regulated by...... "

 

As advised, I would query the single signature... there should be two.

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eh this is fun

can i have a magnifying glass!

it does too, so how as you've two have spotted is it not signed on their side.

we used to have to sign them with the customer who took on the credit and got a number back [like the one top right] .

 

some of the forms had to be posted off then went back to the customer again, looks like its not completed it journey

:) dx100uk

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Share on other sites

eh this is fun

can i have a magnifying glass!

it does too, so how as you've two have spotted is it not signed on their side.

we used to have to sign them with the customer who took on the credit and got a number back [like the one top right] .

 

some of the forms had to be posted off then went back to the customer again, looks like its not completed it journey

:) dx100uk

 

 

However, there is a signature scrawled across some of the small print. Can someone confirm please ?....

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It does say " This is a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you wish to be bound by its terms.

 

This is just above where it says "Signature of Principal Cardholder"

 

So I would say yes it is an agreement as well as an application, however I don't know why it doesn't have a seperate box for them to sign. Maybe the stamp is acceptable. I think RBS are pretty careful about this and wouldn't have risked thousands of invalid agreements for the sake of changing a form.

 

I might be wrong though.

 

Johnny

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bearing in mind this is 10yrs ago i am trying to remember the process we used to have to go through.

 

i think that this form was a duplicate ie the white/pink/green things.

the customer kept one, we posted one, and i cant remember on the third [kept by shop?]. then we got back a list of the numbers of agreements we had 'sold' at the end of the month & we checked them off against our kept copies then destroyed them.

 

 

dx100uk:cool:

 

it gave the customer 'X' product but the card followed later.

 

and yes i think it is a signiture or at least a square stamp? would be interested on a closer scan ?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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It seems to me that it IS an agreement it has the apr, your right to cancel, your sig, their sig (albeit on top of the t&c ) ref to CCA 1974........seems to have it all.

 

looks like your screwed

:-(

 

 

Dave

** We would not seek a battle as we are, yet as we are, we say we will not shun it. (Henry V) **

 

see you stand like greyhounds in the slips,

Straining upon the start. The game's afoot:

Follow your spirit; and, upon this charge

Cry 'God for Harry! England and Saint George!'

:D If you think I have helped, informed, or amused you do the clickey scaley thing !! :D

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Did they send you any T&C's with it?

 

NO! However... I've had a reply today from Tameside Council Trading Standards stating that, "Mint have complied with the Consumer Credit Act by sending a copy of your application form, which is also a credit agreement."

 

I sent TS what Mint (RBS Advanta) sent me, which was just a copy of the original application. The reply from Tameside TS is hand written.

 

No terms & conditions!

 

I'll scan & post in a bit!

 

Regards, Dave.

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I think a judge would consider this to be an agreement.

 

TS have deemed this an agreement, regardless the fact that NO T&C's were sent with it, neither original or present!

 

Regards, Dave.

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Hopefully the cavalry are on their way.

 

But as far as I understand it, no T&Cs means no proper agreement. I know it's not easy to make out the wording, but neither does it appear to refer to separate T&C on the form, regardless of whether they were sent or not. So doesn't seem to comply with your request for your original agreement, as it would seem to be incomplete.

 

Obviously, you don't need T&Cs then, as it must somewhere state on the form that you agree to be bound by whatever the runes say on any particular day.

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Where are the prescribed terms?

Absent so unenforceable agreement.

I assume the bottom RHS are the T&C - maybe, so where are the Cancellation details - you cannot mail them seperately.

 

Which makes me consider this as pre-contractual = its an application form.

 

Return it asking them to comply properly with the requirements of Section 78, and for good measure - its dated 1997 - the card should have been renewed quite a few times in the last 10 years - bet you never even received this pathetic 'agreement' on each of those occasions when you received a new card - send them a default notice under S85 - you should have received a copy of the fully executed agreement EVERY TIME with the renewed card.

 

Z

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Guest Battleaxe

I think it is precontractual. No T & C's which must accompany properly EXECUTED Agreement.

 

We are remiss in asking for Section 78 CCA, not include the words a true copy of a properly executed agreement, I now ask for this in my SAR requests. It does make difference.

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I can't quite make out the small print in the bottom right hand corner, does it contain the APR or refer to a point in the T & Cs? If so then it would probably be an executed agreement. However, if the referred point is a small chart listing a number of different rates, depending upon your credit score this does not comply with what is required.

 

I cannot see a credit limit or a reference to it, provided there is a reference to it in the T & Cs this may be acceptable. Remeber when it comes to the Credit Limit, they don't have to give and exact figure, they can just insert a statement along the lines of 'you will be notified of your credit limit'. I know that this is rather paradoxical when you consider how the APR has to be an exect figure.

 

I know one or two have said that it is just an application form, but the format of these are covered by the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983

 

Mike

If I've helped tip my scales

 

Blair Oliver & Scott, £2500 written off December 2006 Default removed January 2007:D

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/56001-mike220359-blair-oliver-scott.html

 

Monument, didn't sign the agreement

:D

 

Lloyds TSB didn't sign the agreement!

:D

 

Citicards, didn't sign the agreement

:D

 

RBS tut, tut!

:rolleyes:

 

Morgan Stanley, oh dear

:rolleyes:

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My RBS CC application/agreement is identical to this, RBS didnt sign it as such they just rubber stamped it.

The only interesting point i noticed about my own agreement is that i forgot to date it when i made the application. Whether this means i have the right to claim loads of money back i doubt it personally.

On the reverse of my application/agreement there is a full page of terms and conditions to abide by.

 

I honestly cannot see how there is much wrong with this type of agreement, at the end of the day whether its a rubber stamp or a pretty little box to sign in, people are trying to split hairs here.

Me personally i think your totally wasting your time, a judge will clearly see that this type of agreement is perfectly lawful.

Dont Rush - Take Your Time - Dont always take me seriously

:p

 

If you feel i have helped you then click

Here, if you feel i have not helped you then click Here, if you want to complain about this go Here, if you would like bank secrets then go Here.

 

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RBS Credit Card - Case Charges+CI+LA+Costs

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Online Finance - Case Charge+CI+Damages+costs

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My RBS CC application/agreement is identical to this, RBS didnt sign it as such they just rubber stamped it.

The only interesting point i noticed about my own agreement is that i forgot to date it when i made the application. Whether this means i have the right to claim loads of money back i doubt it personally.

On the reverse of my application/agreement there is a full page of terms and conditions to abide by.

 

I honestly cannot see how there is much wrong with this type of agreement, at the end of the day whether its a rubber stamp or a pretty little box to sign in, people are trying to split hairs here.

Me personally i think your totally wasting your time, a judge will clearly see that this type of agreement is perfectly lawful.

 

It may be splitting hairs, but the law is straight down the line, no variation at all.

 

You say that the RBS merely rubber stamped your application, by inference there is no signature. Well I'm afraid that does not conform to what is required under the act. Both the 1974 act and the 1983 statutory instruments state that to be truly executed it must be signed by both parts, the only variation of the use of a signature is the company seal.

 

I know that we can all discuss what a signature is, well it is pretty succicnt under law, however, by extension the stamp may be a facsimile of a signature, but if it (in this case) merely says 'RBS' and the date thats not good enough.

 

Mike

If I've helped tip my scales

 

Blair Oliver & Scott, £2500 written off December 2006 Default removed January 2007:D

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/56001-mike220359-blair-oliver-scott.html

 

Monument, didn't sign the agreement

:D

 

Lloyds TSB didn't sign the agreement!

:D

 

Citicards, didn't sign the agreement

:D

 

RBS tut, tut!

:rolleyes:

 

Morgan Stanley, oh dear

:rolleyes:

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Guest The Terminator

This is not a properly executed agreement and what give's it away is that a rubber stamp do's not constitute a signiture.If you read the CCA it specifically says it must be signed not rubber stamped so that could be the basis of your arguement.

 

61 Signing of agreement

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

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I can't quite make out the small print in the bottom right hand corner, does it contain the APR or refer to a point in the T & Cs? If so then it would probably be an executed agreement. However, if the referred point is a small chart listing a number of different rates, depending upon your credit score this does not comply with what is required.

 

I cannot see a credit limit or a reference to it, provided there is a reference to it in the T & Cs this may be acceptable. Remeber when it comes to the Credit Limit, they don't have to give and exact figure, they can just insert a statement along the lines of 'you will be notified of your credit limit'. I know that this is rather paradoxical when you consider how the APR has to be an exect figure.

 

I know one or two have said that it is just an application form, but the format of these are covered by the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983

 

Mike

 

Mike I know I disagree with you for one thing because of the single signature, which is partly my argument re pre-contractual application. However even if you are correct - CCA 1974:

61.--(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless--

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms

and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied

terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature,

in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

Whichever - it is NOT an agreement OR it is but it is unenforeceable (except by a court? - but there is contra evidence from OFT re that) and would you take it to Court if you were the Creditor and risk a precedence for all others if you lost??? I think not.

 

Z

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Sorry Term and Zubo it is indeed signed by RBS, just below the RBS Advanta stamp there is a signature partially obscurring the small print, that really is enough, the 1983 regs, do not stae where the signature should be but that it should be outside the customer's signature box.

If I've helped tip my scales

 

Blair Oliver & Scott, £2500 written off December 2006 Default removed January 2007:D

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/56001-mike220359-blair-oliver-scott.html

 

Monument, didn't sign the agreement

:D

 

Lloyds TSB didn't sign the agreement!

:D

 

Citicards, didn't sign the agreement

:D

 

RBS tut, tut!

:rolleyes:

 

Morgan Stanley, oh dear

:rolleyes:

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Guest The Terminator
Sorry Term and Zubo it is indeed signed by RBS, just below the RBS Advanta stamp there is a signature partially obscurring the small print, that really is enough, the 1983 regs, do not stae where the signature should be but that it should be outside the customer's signature box.

 

I see what your saying Mike but I have my doubts that this would stand up in court.This face it anyone can rubber stamp an agreement and sign it but where the stamp is it is obscuring the terms which may well make it inilligable.

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I am concerned about some of the early comments made on this thread. An agreement is a specific document. Just because the credit industry wants to speed up it's processes by turning a single document into an application and an agreement does not make the former an agreement as well. Just because it states this is an agreement does not make it one either. I think there is something in S59 about pre-contract documents not being valid as an agreement.

59 Agreement to enter future agreement void

(1) An agreement is void if, and to the extent that, it purports to bind a person to enter as debtor or hirer into a prospective regulated agreement.

(2) Regulations may exclude from the operation of subsection (1) agreements such as are described in the regulations.

I don't know if there are any later regulations that over-rides (1), perhaps some more learned member can clarify for us.

 

Many of the creditors I have challenged on this have yet to produce any useful regulation so I suspect not.

 

If they were however to successfully challenge I still don't think from the cursory look I have given that the document, if it were to be accepted as an agreement, is within the strict rules of CCA and later regulations. The OFT documents that sets out the regulations is a useful place to start

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft018.pdf

I think they may have failed on the form and content of the document as described in the guidance. It is difficult to read on the posting so I am not sure. If the copy held is as unclear as this I would also throw in a challenge on the grounds that every copy must be easily legible just for good measure.

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