Miles v Abbey

[messiah]

Ok i am confused. I am about to take Abbey to court and am filling my money claim form out. Most of it makes sence but i am not claiming overdraft intrest so how does this change the wording. A copy of which is below, the bit i think i need to remove is in red.

 

1. The Claimant has an account ??????? & ??????? with the Defendant, opened nov 2000 2. Since 31/10/05 the Defendant debited charges and interest in respect of purported breaches

of contract. 3. Defendant is aware of all

details as a list of charges has already

been supplied. Another copy will be sent.

4. Claimant contends: (a) The charges

exceed the Defendant's losses caused by the

breaches; (b) The Term permitting the

Defendant to levy such charges is

unenforceable under the Unfair Terms in

Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, Unfair

Contract Terms Act 1977 and at Common Law.

5. Claimant claims: (a) return of the

amounts debited of £1784; (b) Interest per

S.69 County Courts Act 1984 of 8% - £120.73

continuing at 8% until judgment or

settlement at a daily rate of £0.xx; 6.

Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for

a service, then they must be reasonable

under S.15 of the Supply of Goods and

Services Act 1982. 7. Costs allowed by the

Court.

 

In advance thanks.

[araynick]

Where it says "since 31/10/05 the defendant debited charges and interest in respect ...." I'm thinking you just leave out the word interest here.

 

But you should carry on claiming the interest @ 8% as this is the interest you are due on your charges, overdraft interest I believe is a different thing again, you are entitled to claim this as well if you want to, somebdody please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Hope this helps.

[messiah]

Hi

 

I will come as no surprise that Lloyd's have been dragging there feet sending my statements through but before i begin banging the letters out i have a couple of questions.

 

1. Does a business account have to be dealt with differently?

2. I also have 2 personal accounts, so when i have figured out all the charges can i deal with all 3 accounts in one claim or case?

 

Cheers.

[livelylad]

Hi

 

I will come as no surprise that Lloyd's have been dragging there feet sending my statements through but before i begin banging the letters out i have a couple of questions.

 

1. Does a business account have to be dealt with differently?

2. I also have 2 personal accounts, so when i have figured out all the charges can i deal with all 3 accounts in one claim or case?

 

Cheers.

 

Ok I have posted the link for business acounts, you can combine the 2 personal accounts for the claim. I will clarify if the business account can be merged as well but i doubt it.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/64975-business-claims-basic-guide.html

[messiah]

Thanks your a star!

[livelylad]

Ok business and personal accounts can not be merged as one claim.

 

Thank you Sharon.

[messiah]

Ok thank you.

 

So if i am to claim for my personal and business accounts, am i right in thinking that i can not have two claims going on at the same time? In other words claim business charges win and then claim my personal charges?

 

Also

 

At the moment i am going through the "Complex-bank-charges-calc" and have got confused about the intrest part, i might be having a dim moment but could someone try to clarify it for me?

 

The turquoise boxes on the right hand side are for any interest you have been charged in the last six years. You need to enter a date, amount and account balance in columns G, H and I accordingly. The best date to use for the interest, is the last date of the interest charge period, e.g. for 1 April 2002 to 30 April 2002 a date of 30 April 2002 would be used. If this date is unavailable, use the date the interest appears on the statement. Enter the balance the account is showing at the date you are stating, using a minus figure for overdrawn balances.

 

sorry if this has been covered elsewhere.

[messiah]

I have a question. When i started to claim my bank charges back Abbey had sent a letter saying the were going to enter a default notice against me. So when i sent the standard letters to them i included the bit about removing the default notice

 

"Additionally you have entered a default notice against my credit record. This default occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you or was the result of impecuniosity caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges which you had applied unlawfully to my account."

 

This default notice has not appeared on my credit record! I am about to start the court process do i need to mention the the default notice or just use the standard template for MCOL?

 

One more thing what figure should i enter here (in red)

 

 

5. Claimant claims: (a) return of the

amounts debited of £XXXX; (b) Interest per

S.69 County Courts Act 1984 of 8% - £xxx

[enter interest total at date of claim]

continuing at 8% until judgment or

settlement at a daily rate of £0.xx; 6.

Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for

a service, then they must be reasonable

under S.15 of the Supply of Goods and

Services Act 1982. 7. Costs allowed by the

Court.

 

Thanks.

[Guest louis wu]

the figure in red is 0.00022%

 

doesn't sound a lot, but really adds up doesn't it.

 

As to the default notice, Abbey are bxxxxxxs for this.

 

Firstly, when did the 28 day notice run out? If this was within the last couple of weeks it wouldn't necessarily appear on your credit report yet.

 

I would call abbey and ask them if the default has been passed on. The number for debt management is 0845 603 9035

 

Find out what the current position of Abbey is regarding the default and let us know, as there are further steps to take to get the default removed

[messiah]

OK

 

The letter is dated 04/01/2007, so a little over 2 months ago! Have checked the creditexpert site and there is no sign of it there but i am not sure what i would be looking for anyway.

 

Have spoken to Abbey on the number you gave me and the account has not been passed to an agency and therefore no notice has been applied for! But what will they do next.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Here is a copy of the letter.

 

 

 

 

Date: 04/01/07

Our Ref : AAM2O2/CAIS

 

Dear xxxxxxxxxxxx

Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxxx

Overdrawn Balance: £xxx.xx (Plus Interest and Charges)

Overdraft Limit: £0

This letter will serve to provide you with notice of our intention to register default information with Credit Reference Agencies to which we subscribe, in respect of the above account number. Default information will be registered 28 days from the date of this letter, and may be used by other lenders in assessing applications for credit made by you and members of your household.

The role of the credit reference agency is to make it possible for lenders to quickly make accurate and responsible lending decisions. Credit reference agencies do this by holding details of your credit histories, which lenders then use to help them decide whether or not to accept applications for credit from customers.

[Guest louis wu]

I cant say for sure, but I'm wondering if this was one of Abbeys little ploys for getting you to 'reconsider' your claim, and was infact just an empty threat.

 

My understanding is that Abbey cant default your account, as the account is in dispute. This is a direct quote from the Banking code, as agreed by Abbey

 

 

 

13.6 We may give information to credit reference agencies about the personal debts you owe us if:

 

• you have fallen behind with your payments;

• the amount owed is not in dispute; and

• you have not made proposals we are satisfied with for repaying your debt,

following our formal demand

 

 

 

 

The important point is point 2 • the amount owed is not in dispute

 

It is my understanding that that is enough to stop the default.

 

 

Like I say, I am not sure about this in relation to your case, but as it has been 2 months hopefully nothing will happen. Incidently, it would show on your credit report as a 'D' in the Abbey bcurrent account section.

 

Louis

[messiah]

Got this letter yesterday 8/03/07 which confuses things i think? They have offered a good will gesture and i have to say that i was tempted but have talked my self out of just accepting it.

 

I have yet to file my court claim mainly due to lack of funds. As i aim to continue with a court claim how does this letter change things or does it not?

 

There offer in the letter is against the amounts £1409 and £375 if that helps any one, also they have pitched there offer at an amount that would pay off my overdraft with them!

 

The highlighted bits i am sure do not make any difference but i would be interested in your thoughts about the OFT.

 

02 March 2007

Our ref:CMS xxxxxx

Abbey Current Account xxxxxxxxxx & xxxxxxxxx

 

Dear Mr xxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated 5 February 2007, about the charges on your bank accounts. I have now carried out a full investigation on your behalf.

 

I’m sorry you are unhappy with the charges and I understand you would like these refunded. Although the charges were correct, as a gesture of goodwill, I am happy to refund £778. This is made up of £515 in respect of account xxxxxxx and £263 in respect of account xxxxxx. Your accounts will be updated within the next 10 working days.

 

I appreciate your feelings on this matter but we are satisfied that the charges do not contravene the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 or common law. We also comply with the Office of Fair Trading, in dealing fairly and openly with our customers.

 

The Office of Fair Trading announcement was in relation to Credit Card default charges and not overdraft default charges or to other products, such as Bank Accounts. This means our Tariff of Charges continues to apply.

 

When opening your accounts you were provided with information detailing the terms and conditions. We have also sent you regular updates and Tariff of Charges, which detail the amounts of our charges. I have enclosed a further copy for you.

 

To avoid charges in the future, please ensure there is enough money in your accounts to cover direct debits and other payments made. I would also recommend checking your balance regularly, through an Abbey cash machine, online and through calling our Telephone Banking Centre on 08459 724 724.

 

You have asked Abbey to provide a breakdown of how our charges are apportioned. Abbey are not obliged to provide the specific information you have asked for. Our charges are not out of line with other financial institutions within the UK and are outlined in the terms and conditions of your account.

 

Most banking transactions are automated, but on occasions, when there are insufficient funds in the account, they are dealt with manually. This is costly and our charges reflect the administration costs involved.

 

 

 

 

Any information registered with credit reference agencies is a true and factual reflection of the situation on your account. We are required by the Information Commissioner to register and share information on how customers run their accounts. Because of this, we are unable to remove or alter the information that is held. However, when the outstanding balance is paid in full, although the default will remain, it will then be marked as satisfied.

 

It is a matter for each lender to decide what weight it wishes to attach to the information it reviews. Whereas we would not wish to suggest that the presence of default information would have no impact on any future decisions, we think it fair to say that most lenders consider matters such as the age of such an entry, whether or not has been satisfied, and a variety of other information before reaching their decisions.

 

Please be assured I have carried out a full investigation for you and I hope you feel I have offered a considered and complete response to all of the issues you’ve raised. I will keep your file open for the next 8 weeks and if I don’t hear from you within that time, I will assume that everything is resolved and will close your file. If you remain dissatisfied though, the leaflet you’ll find with this letter explains your rights and how to take your complaint further within Abbey. The address to contact is:

 

Complaints

Abbey

P0 Box 5129

Milton Keynes

MK92YN

 

If you remain unhappy with the response from the Complaints Department, you have an ultimate right to refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Gerry Kane

Senior Customer Resolution Manager

Enc. Complaints Leaflet

Tariff of Charges

[Glenn UK]

the figure in red is 0.00022% Are you sure? The OP is quoting 8% statutory interest and the value to be inserted should be a value per day e.g. £0.50 per day or something similar.

The figure you quote is a rate.

 

 

Re the default you need t be careful, canny even.

 

If you have defaulted on your account abbey dont have to apply the default striaght away. Or at least if i can put it this way, the dates of defaults i have on my credit file dont seem to bear any particualr relationship with the events.

 

So i would include a reference to them not processing and defaults or adverse entries on your credit file.

 

Dependning on whether you want to use the account post your claim you might like to put include a term that they cease processing your personal data until you give them permission to do so.

 

Something you have highlighted in their letter referring to manual intervention, when you respond to this letter make sure you ask them to give specific instances of manual intervention on your account and what the cost of that intervention was.

 

they wont respond with the info but it will at least allow you to confirm when you claim that abbey dont know and havent provided any instances of manual intervention on your account. As it is it mplied that there is and could potentially cause a weakness in your claim later on, particualry if you havent thought about it.

 

JMHO

 

Glenn

[messiah]

Glen

 

OK that all makes sense.

 

I am at the stage of sending my claim off so do i put that sort of information on the n1 form or MCOL?

 

What figure did you use or advise i use as a rate?

 

Many thanks

[messiah]

Yesterday 08/03/07 I received this letter am i correct in thinking that i will use the template in Rejecting Offers (http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/25716-rejecting-offers.html) letter 4.

 

Also what do you think about the content of the letter? especially the highlighted bits!

 

To add some perspective the total amount i am claiming is £1784.

 

02 March 2007

Our ref:CMS xxxxxxxxx

Abbey Current Account xxxxxx & xxxxxx

 

Dear Mr Miles

 

Thank you for your letter dated 5 February 2007, about the charges on your bank accounts. I have now carried out a full investigation on your behalf.

 

I’m sorry you are unhappy with the charges and I understand you would like these refunded. Although the charges were correct, as a gesture of goodwill, I am happy to refund £778. This is made up of £515 in respect of account xxxxxx and £263 in respect of account xxxxxx. Your accounts will be updated within the next 10 workingdays.

 

I appreciate your feelings on this matter but we are satisfied that the charges do not contravene the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 or common law. We also comply with the Office of Fair Trading, in dealing fairly and openly with our customers.

 

The Office of Fair Trading announcement was in relation to Credit Card default charges and not overdraft default charges or to other products, such as Bank Accounts. This means our Tariff of Charges continues to apply.

 

When opening your accounts you were provided with information detailing the terms and conditions. We have also sent you regular updates and Tariff of Charges, which detail the amounts of our charges. I have enclosed a further copy for you.

 

To avoid charges in the future, please ensure there is enough money in your accounts to cover direct debits and other payments made. I would also recommend checking your balance regularly, through an Abbey cash machine, online and through calling our Telephone Banking Centre on 08459 724 724.

 

You have asked Abbey to provide a breakdown of how our charges are apportioned. Abbey are not obliged to provide the specific information you have asked for. Our charges are not out of line with other financial institutions within the UK and are outlined in the terms and conditions of your account.

 

Most banking transactions are automated, but on occasions, when there are insufficient funds in the account, they are dealt with manually. This is costly and our charges reflect the administration costs involved.

 

Any information registered with credit reference agencies is a true and factual reflection of the situation on your account. We are required by the Information Commissioner to register and share information on how customers run their accounts. Because of this, we are unable to remove or alter the information that is held. However, when the outstanding balance is paid in full, although the default will remain, it will then be marked as satisfied.

 

It is a matter for each lender to decide what weight it wishes to attach to the information it reviews. Whereas we would not wish to suggest that the presence of default information would have no impact on any future decisions, we think it fair to say that most lenders consider matters such as the age of such an entry, whether or not has been satisfied, and a variety of other information before reaching their decisions.

 

Please be assured I have carried out a full investigation for you and I hope you feel I have offered a considered and complete response to all of the issues you’ve raised. I will keep your file open for the next 8 weeks and if I don’t hear from you within that time, I will assume that everything is resolved and will close your file. If you remain dissatisfied though, the leaflet you’ll find with this letter explains your rights and how to take your complaint further within Abbey. The address to contact is:

 

Complaints

Abbey

P0 Box 5129

Milton Keynes

MK92YN

 

If you remain unhappy with the response from the Complaints Department, you have an ultimate right to refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Gerry Kane

Senior Customer Resolution Manager

Enc. Complaints Leaflet

Tariff of Charges

[Glenn UK]

Glen

 

OK that all makes sense.

 

I am at the stage of sending my claim off so do i put that sort of information on the n1 form or MCOL?

 

What figure did you use or advise i use as a rate?

 

Many thanks

 

i would alwasy recommend using the N1 these claims are relativley complex and the MCOL system doesnt allow you to put too mcuh info down.

 

HTH

 

Glenn

[messiah]

Let me get everything straight.

 

1. I have received an offer from Abbey which i do not want to accept because i want all of my money (£1784 not £778 So first i must send a letter back to them rejecting it (using letter 4 from the rejecting offer forum). I then assume that they either take the money back or ignore me and hope i go away. After the 10 days are up that i gave them in the letter i will then continue with the court claim.

 

2. The court claim should go something like this: (I have only filled out some bits as i am looking for advice and corrections) But where and with what sort of wording would i mention the default notice?

 

Money claim for return of penalty charges applied to the Claimants bank account by the Defendant.

 

Charges £1784

Overdraft Interest £0

Interest under s.69 County Courts Act 1984 £122.30

Court Fee £120.00

 

TOTAL £ 2026.30

 

Plus interest pursuant to S.69 County Courts Act 1984 from date of issue to date of judgement/settlement at £0.39 per day OR at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

 

PARTICULARS OF CLAIM

 

 

1. The Claimant [has] [had] an account1 ("the Account") with the Defendant which was opened on or around 2 [and closed on or around 2 ]

 

2. During the period in which the Account [has been] [was] operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Account in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimant understands that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimant.

 

3. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim.

 

4. The Claimant contends that:

 

a) The charges debited to the Account are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimant; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit.

 

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999), the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and the common law.

 

5. Accordingly the Claimant claims:

 

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £2026.30 and any interest charged thereon;

 

 

b) Court costs;

 

c) Interest pursuant to section 69 County Courts Act as set out on the attached list of charges or at such rate and for such periods as the court deems just.

 

6. Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act (1982).

 

I believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true

[Glenn UK]

Messiah rather than comment on yours i have my own posted in Glenn Vs abbey and Glenn Vs Barclaycard there is some more info in there, re the default i would just add a line something like

 

x. The claimant requiries the rmeoval of the default registerd on his/her credit file.

 

HTH

 

glenn

[messiah]

I have received a offer from my bank for about half of what i asked for! Am i correct in thinking that before i can go to court or put a claim in, for the rest of my money, i must send them a letter declining there offer?

[livelylad]

I have merged your threads please stick to one.

 

Ok you can accept the offer as a partial settlement then pursue the rest in court. The bank will probably withdraw the offer if you do not accept it as a full settlement.

This link has the letters.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/25716-rejecting-offers.html

[messiah]

An update.

 

I had sent my rejection letter to Abbey about there offer but have heard nothing! (no great surprize there) I have also checked my accounts the money they paid in has not been touched so i guess they hope i might just go away.

 

Also a couple of days after my offer letter arrived the debt collection letters started to arrive! Is this one of Abbeys scare tactics?

 

I told the agency that the account was in dispute and they said that it would be handed back to abbey.

 

I have one big question. The fact that abbey have paid money into my accounts makes the court claim more complicated as i will not be asking for the full amount any more. How does this change the wording of my POC?

[messiah]

Just noticed my thread is not where its supposed to be how do i get it moved to the abbey forum?????