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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Negative equity - hounded for 13 years


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13 years ago, due to ill health and an idle ex-husband who wouldn't work, I was forced to sell my house in London for half the original cost incurring £20,432 of negative equity. I moved to the West Country and have since been in rental accommodation and on a much lower income. However, Bradford & Bingley to whom I owe the debt have pursued me eversince (even, I think, stooping to the depths of phoning me at home saying they were from the Court vetting me for jury service and asking for my details, but on checking this out I discovered that this is not how jury service is determined and was advised that if I knew who it was that phoned me I should report them to the police as it was a criminal offence to impersonate a court official. I suspected it was them as the following week I received a letter stating that they knew where I worked, but unfortunately I could not prove anything.) I have submitted several income and expenditure forms and through their solicitor started to pay £10 per month until they wanted to increase the amount. I offered a £1000 one off payment which I was able to borrow, but this was rejected. The Citizens Advice Bureau did not prove to be of much help and only advised bankrupcy (a course of action I wish to avoid because of my job and the fact that my landlord would be told). I have now received two letters from a debt collection agency called Experto Credite and am not sure what to do. Should I ignore them and hope they either take me to court or write the debt off, or contact them and try and reach an agreement. Either way, I will be paying this debt off for the rest of my life as I will be taking my State Pension in three years' time. I have spoken to other people who found themselves in my situation in the early 1990s and their debts have been written off. I am also worried about them sending in bailiffs.

If anyone has any advice to offer or has been in the same position I would be glad to hear about it.

Marian G

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Guest Lueeze

Have you had any contact with them in the last 6 years?

 

Im assumin you have as you were paying a sum to them?

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Guest Lueeze

Yes thats what route i was hoping for!

 

Im no expert at this sort of thing im afraid, can they not persue your ex too?

 

Try CCCS on 0800 138 1111. They have had good reviews on here!

 

Louise

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Guest Lueeze

Yes dont be afraid, yes you may have this debt, but its not the end of the world.

 

We are here to support you!

 

Lou x

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Just to clarify, the limitation period on mortgages is 12 years, not 6 years.

 

I am in a similar position, but don't want to go into too many details because I am just in a the middle of a game of cat and mouse with Experto Credite myself, and it is at a very critical stage. I would say however, that the people who phoned are nothing whatsoever to do with Bradford and Bingley, it was almost certainly EC.

 

I am ex-directory, but over a period of 10 months they have phoned two of my neighbours to get me to call them. The first time they told a lady who lives across the road that a "life assurance" company was trying to contact me about a matured policy. The person claimed to be from a tracing agency.

 

I called using 141 before the number, and the person said they would get the company to ring back. I said I would not give the number and to tell me the name of the company and I would ring them. It was then that I discovered it was actually EC.

 

After that I started to receive regular letters from them - they send about five different template letters out threatening different things.

 

Anyway, a few days ago my next door neighbour came round and said that someone had called him and asked if I still lived next door. He just told them to f*** off!

 

This company are **** - and will keep writing, and they will use underhand tactics.

 

One important question, were you ever taken to court over the shortfall?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for your reply. No I have never been taken to court. I am not sure what to do about EC. Should I contact them? I'm going to call CCCS on Monday and ask for their advice and also have a word with a local solicitor who gives a free 15 minute appointment. I still can't understand why Bradford & Bingley took the matter out of the solicitors hands and put it with EC. I assume it's because they will probably be more aggressive!

Marian G

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Hi Marian,

 

Sorry to hear of your problems, these people really are parasites.

 

How long ago is it since you exchanged any correspondence or acknowledged the debt? Did B&B get a court order or did you hand the keys of the property back? Have they provided you with a breakdown of how, exactly, they have arrived at the figure they are claiming you owe?

If there's no court order, then the 12 year limitation period will keep restarting from when you last acknowledged the debt or made a payment. If they already have judgement, then there's no limitation period as such but they would have to get the Court's permission to enforce the Judgement after so long.

 

There's some very good info on the site I've linked below for people in your situation, which you might find helpful but I do have to say, it hasn't been updated for a while and may be out of date in some of its info. However, still a very useful source of information.

 

http://www.home-repo.org/

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I still can't understand why Bradford & Bingley took the matter out of the solicitors hands and put it with EC. I assume it's because they will probably be more aggressive!

 

Bradford & Bingley will have sold the debt to EC for probably 10 - 15% of the amount you owed. It will probably have been purchased along with many others at the same time.

 

You are right to seek advice on this, and I wish you the best of luck. Let us know how things develop.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Thank you BotB for your reply. Unfortunately it's only a few months since I dealt with B&B's solicitor. There has been no court order and I didn't hand back the keys. I reluctantly sold the property myself when I was unable to meet the commitments, but at a huge loss. I originally had equity in it, but because of the recession, lost it all and ended up with negative equity, like many others. I will definitely check out the site you mention though. All suggestions are more than welcome to help me deal with this.

Thank you.

Marian G

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They may have sold the debt as Alan implies but they ( the collection agency) should write to tell you this. Make sure you read all their paperwork thoroughly before taking them on - you may as well get it right from the start. Ask the agency if they now own the debt they will have to tell you and as Alan says the price they pay for it is about 10- 15% which gives you a much stronger negotiating position. They won't settle for 10 or 15% but anything over that is a bonus so take stock if that's the case and come back here for advice. However, if this has recently been with solicitors I would have thought it unlikely they have sold it quite yet. Anyway the advice above is good -don't worry - there's plent of support here.

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Hi MarionG

I am sincerely sorry to hear about your situation:(

 

I believe that you are not alone (if that is any consolation) the 1990's negative equity issue that was caused by the recession at that time.

 

There is a 'Limitation Rule/Statute relating to mortgages which is 6 years on the interest and 12 years on the capitol. This means that if the debt has not been refreshed or acknowledged then the mortgagee is Statute barred. However, in your case it looks as though the debt has been refreshed, but this area of law is incredibly complex!? Therefore I think that you should seek proper/correct legal advice, to ascertain your situation. I agree with Lueeze in that you should firstly contact CCCS or National Debtline

http://www.nationaldebtline.co.uk

either of these debt helplines should be able to put you in touch with a solicitor in your area or in London who has the specialist expertise to assist you, plus you may be in a situation to obtain Legal Funding or at least obtain help under the Legal Help Scheme.

 

There is however another issue that arises from you post, that is harassment from the collections agency and I would suggest that you contact your local Trading Standards making a 'formal complaint' about the collections agencies Bad/Poor debt collections methods. Trading standards are part of the Office of Fair Trading who have issued guidance on Debt Collection practices.

 

It is my opinion, that you should not write any more letters to either the mortgagee or the collection agency, until you have saught expert legal advice

 

Note, there has been protracted litigation culminating in a recent House of Lord's decision, West Bromwich Building Society - v - Wilkinson [2005] UKHL 44.

 

I do not have any legal expertise and am just simply a member of the Bank Action Group who is seeking justice and I do hope that my message to you, is helpful.

 

Kind regards

 

angry cat

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Thank you Andrew and Angry Cat for your replies. They are most helpful and I will certainly take your advice and contact the CCCS and National Debt Helpline and check my position out thoroughly before contacting EC. Your support is more than appreciated. Thank you.

Marian G

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...they now own the debt they will have to tell you and as Alan says the price they pay for it is about 10- 15% which gives you a much stronger negotiating position. They won't settle for 10 or 15% but anything over that is a bonus so take stock if that's the case and come back here for advice. ...

 

Try 2 to 3%. Possibly less. And no they won't accept close to that because they need to cover the cost of purchasing the 95% that will never pay with the 5% that will. Basic maths will tell you that their profit position on individual debts is roughly 20 times the cost (assuming 5% will pay which is not unreasonable but *can* be optomistic) - i.e. 40% if they pay 2% to 60% if they pay 3%. Often bought debt on old accounts will change hands for fractions of 1% if it is old enough. Neg Equity is considered junk debt as there is little likelihood that a successful trace will result in finding a homeowner (the best way of actually get money out of a debtor is when they have an asset) as the repossessed seldom get back on the housing ladder.

 

Regards,

Eduin

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Eduin - do you know something I dont about these debt purchases? between 7 and 12% was the figure I was given and that was for the likes of Cabot buying old credit card debt. for the debt to be sold for so little it would have to be pretty old and well passed around the market place surely? I can't imagine MarianG's debt being that old from what she says. She'll get a flat refusal in those kind of figures. Still we learn something everytime someone comes into the forum with experiences and I'm still learning! Thanks.

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Hi MarionG

 

I have read the preceeding posts regarding a percentage settlement of your debt but...

 

I think that you need to tread very carefully !

because your debt actually relates to a Mortgage Shortfall and as you have not yet ascertained as to WHEN the debt was acknowledged or refreshed?

You should not have any contact with the collections agency or mortgagee, that is until you have saught Legal Advice and as stated prior-

National Debtline will assist you and put you in touch with a solicitor who specialises in this complex area.

 

Kind regards

 

angry cat

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Eduin - do you know something I dont about these debt purchases? between 7 and 12% was the figure I was given and that was for the likes of Cabot buying old credit card debt. for the debt to be sold for so little it would have to be pretty old and well passed around the market place surely? I can't imagine MarianG's debt being that old from what she says. She'll get a flat refusal in those kind of figures. Still we learn something everytime someone comes into the forum with experiences and I'm still learning! Thanks.

 

I'm a debt collector.

 

You're right about the age of the debt being relavent to the price paid but the age is only one of the factors in debt pricing. Basically once an account has defaulted, you begin the filtering process. The most likely to pay should always be picked up by the first stage of collections which will be (definately for a large financial enterprise like a bank or finance co) be internal.

 

By the time debt gets to the "Prime" stage (first placement with a collection agency) you are looking at an absolute maximum of 15% recovery (and this varies greatly with the business cycle of the economy) and of that 15% only a proportion will appear "immediately" much will be paid over time. Debt purchase companies need a margin, so they aren't going to pay more than they can collect for a batch of debt, they will also look for a decent return. Again any large financial company will always "place" Prime debt with a DCA (Debt Collection Agency) where the DCA gets a cut, its more profitable than selling at this stage.

 

At the Secondary stage where obviously the likelihood of getting payment has fallen again (well under 10% by now) a lot of the big banks will sell rather than do a secondary placement. The banks are smart, they know that Debt Collection is a competitive market, they'll farm out debt as "Prime" more than once in many cases and the DCA will lap it up because they don't have any power over their client. So even if it is classed as secondary for pricing chances are its already been to two DCAs, possibly an "internal DCA" (a department of the bank using an assumed name) and first pass internal recoveries (usually called "account correction" or "customer support" rather than collections).

 

The pricing is very complex. It will depend on the risk profile of the acceptance (credit score) of applicants to the debt product, the likelihood of the debtors still being solvent, having assets (like houses) along with the age. When you actually take all the factors into account - gone aways, untraceables, bankrupts, asset free, nowadays people using the Banking Code and Debt Management Companies as a shield, the payment rate is ridiculously low and it is very hard to actually enforce debt (I often wonder why anyone pays unsecured debt - ever).

 

As I said, for post-repossession formerly secured loans the status will be junk. Slightly better if it were mortgage debt than second secured loan debt but still not good given that the debtors have already most likely lost all assets and the only compulsion to pay is the "honour" of the debtor which these days is not very high. Fractions of 1% paid for the debt will not be uncommon.

 

Regards,

Eduin

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Hi Marian -I cannot imagine having something like that hanging over me for that

long. You have my sympathies.

My suggestion may need help from the likes of Alan or BF, but I will start the ball rolling. In your original post, you mentioned a figure of £20 grand or thereabout.

I assume that included amongst that, would have been a fair amount of charges.

I know that at 13 years, they are classed as Statute barred, but the moderators

here seem to think maybe not. And by writing in asking for a breakdown of the

B/Soc's figure, and then claiming the charges back, should get the bailiffs off

your back for a while.

 

You may have had a Mortgage Indemnity Guarantee on your property. If you did,

did they reimburse any of the B/S losses?

Can you revert to your maiden name, move house and get lost [if you'll pardon the expression] if all else fails?

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  • 6 months later...

Hi have you had any other contact re this with B & B?

 

Is it settled with an agreement or is it still ongoing?

 

Reason i ask, is I have a friend who is in a similar position.

 

Cheers

10/09/06 - 13/11/06 reclaimed full charges and interest of £2781.45 for friend from Nationwide;)

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  • 12 years later...

This topic was closed on 10 March 2019.

If you have a problem which is similar to the issues raised in this topic, then please start a new thread and you will get help and support there.

If you would like to post up some information which is relevant to this particular topic then please flag the issue up to the site team and the thread will be reopened.

- Consumer Action Group

Marian G

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