PCM vanishing windscreen PCN - Royale Leisure Park - W3 (London)

[Hamz909]

Hi everyone, appreciate your help in this.

Today (18/04/2024) I received a "Parking charge - Keeper liability notice for Royale Leisure Park - W3"

stating that I "parked without clearly displaying a valid PCM UK Ltd permit.

The car was parked on the 8th of March 2024 at the car park for Park Royal Leisure Park in London. The letter stated that a notice to keep was sent 28 days ago, but I have not received any charge letter or ticket. 

I don't know what permit they are talking about.

The leisure park does not have tickets, it has free parking for 5 hours- this is clearly stated on their website.

Furthermore, I think the Parking Charge is invalid because, on March 8th, I was a customer at Royale Leisure Park, where I attended to watch a movie at the Odeon Cinema. I can prove my purchase of the ticket.

The Royal Leisure Park has free parking for 5 hours as stated on their website (see attached screenshot), so they should not have given me the charge in the first place.

Should I contact them to state that I should not have been given a charge?

I'm concerned about the charge rising if I don't contact them. 

Your advice is greatly appreciated. 

Thank you.

 

parking rules park royal.pdf

2024-04-12 PCM NTK event 2024-03-08.pdf

[dx100uk]

please complete this:

 

dx

[Hamz909]

The answers to the questions:

1 Date of the infringement: 08/03 2024

2 Date on the NTK notice to keeper. 12/04/2024

3 Date received  only received keeper liability notice. 

4 Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? [Y/N?]  Yes 

5 Is there any photographic evidence of the event? No but I didn't receive the initial PCN. 

6 Have you appealed? No 

7 Who is the parking company? Parking control management (UK) ltd

8. Where exactly [carpark name and town] Royal leisure park, London W3. 

For either option, does it say which appeals body they operate under. IAS

[dx100uk]

their NTK is outside of 14 days for an ANPR capture unless there was a vanishing windscreen PCN.?

typical screw up that PCM always make

ignore until/unless you ever get a letter of claim.

just to make sure ......your car's V5C does state your current address? if so where's the pcn? naughty PCM

[Hamz909]

Thanks for the input.

My v5c must state my current otherwise I wouldn't have got this claim letter.

Also I have 24/4 video recording on my car when it is parked.

I can always check if a ticket was placed on my windscreen, but I doubt it. 

I'll keep an eye out for any letters. 

Best regards. 

[dx100uk]

4 minutes ago, Hamz909 said:

My v5c must state my current otherwise I wouldn't have got this claim letter.

mainly for future readers..BUT..

nope not true, ....

they could have used a trace agency to find your address, never assume a V5C is correct if you find paperwork that should have arrived at the RK's address has not always CHECK. esp if you've moved in recent times or since the date of the parking event.

dx

 

[lookinforinfo]

As they have failed to deliver their original PCN you will need to send them an SAR where they should provide that PCN. It should show the address they used . If it is not your current one that would explain the non delivery. If it was correct then perhaps the Post office messed up. A more cynical view would be that UKPC didn't send it so that you couldn't claim the reduction.

It appears that UKPC have been there for some time  but I have been unable to find any pictures of their Notices.The leisure park itself is pretty big so while some parts maybe give 5 hours free parking other parts may have restrictions like permits. I haven't been there for years -I went  to Nandos and the bowling centre . I am surprised that they are now infested with UKPC as the place is plenty big enough not to require their dubious services.

If you live not to far away it would help if you could get some legible pictures of their signs. Be carful to park in an area that doesn't require a permit and take photos of the entrance signs, the five hour sign and the permit only sign as well as any other signs that are different from the previous signs. Also if their is a payment machine could you please photograph that.

[Hamz909]

I live near by, I'll go there at the W/E and get photos.

[FTMDave]

Your attachment showing the cinema parking restrictions seems crystal clear.

Let's see what the photos turn up.

[Hamz909]

Even on their map on their website, these parking rules encompass the whole pleasure park - there is no dedicated area for permits and another for free parking as stated.

 

These are the photos of the signs.

At the entrance there is a 7h free sign.

On some bays there is a permit sign. 

Also their official website is misleading as it implies all parking is free. 

I can't be certain of the exact parking bay I was in that day, and there was no PCN ticket on my car and no other evidence was provided. 

 

 

 

MAP+Signs.pdf

[FTMDave]

The signs do say a 7-hour stay (presumably five free plus two paying).

But they also go on about a permit.

What the logic is of a permit when watching a film or going to flippin' Burger King is beyond me.

[anotheruser0000]

How does one obtain the permit?

The permit team number is only open between the hours of 9am to 3pm Mon - Fri.

It says on the website, To obtain an additional 2 hours, the driver must pay a tariff of £3.00 + booking fees in person at our Security Hut, is that how you get the permit also, from the security hut?

What a rigmarole that would be but maybe just another step to take to try and catch people out?

[lookinforinfo]

If everyone who wanted or needed a permit could get one easily how would PCM make any money?

 

 

[Hamz909]

I think there are two types of parking spot, some with permit, others without, although the website does not state this and the map on the website gives the impression that all spaces are free. 

The question is how can they know which space I was parked in? There was no ticket on my windscreen, and I did not receive the original NTK. 

Should I contact them to ask for photographic evidence? 

[FTMDave]

I've had a look on their site to see if there is a way to download photos, but haven't found anything.

The best thing is to send them a SAR on Monday.  Invest in a 2nd class stamp and get a free Certificate of Posting from the post office.

That way they will have to produce the original invoice, a windscreen ticket if it exists, photos, etc.

 

[Hamz909]

Hi all, I have an update:

I have received the documents from the SAR, including photos. It appears that I was parked in a bay with a sign that requires a permit, however the pole that it is on does appear to be behind the barrier - see photo.

Also, they documented that they DID NOT apply the PCN to my car because of safety concerns and I DID NOT receive the initial £60 PCN by post- see attached

appreciate any feedback/ advice, current PCN fee stands at £100.

 

part of SAR.pdf

[FTMDave]

This is great news.

The PPCs have a tactic of placing a window ticket, photographing it, and then throwing it away, to do the motorist out of the chance to (a) appeal and (b) pay during the discount period.

They are usually not so stupid to have admitted they never left a ticket.  But PCM have!!!

So you're in the clear.

They've broken their own Code of Practice rules about the discount period and appealing.  Plus their letter got to you too late to establish keeper liability.  On top the only photo is of your car at 20:12:13 with no proof that you stayed longer than the 5-minute consideration period.

PCM will continue with their deforestation in the hope you will give in but they would be ultra stupid to try court.

[Hamz909]

That's great news.

I'll upload the full SAR PDF later today- only a few photos and the two PCS, the original £60 and the £100., but what should I do now? Should I write to them to appeal this?

[lolerz]

Do not appeal.

[Hamz909]

ok, no appeal.

[FTMDave]

Think of it logically.  The very people who thought up this scam to send you a demand for £100 instead of the initial £60 discounted amount, are not going to accept an appeal against their own scamming!

Ignore their coming silly demands for money.

But never ignore a Letter of Claim.

[FTMDave]

7 hours ago, Hamz909 said:

and the two PCS, the original £60 and the £100

Please clarify this.

You got nothing before the demand for £100 on 12 April, right?

The only "evidence" about the NTK which would have been £60 was the rubbish in the SAR about not wanting to confront you - right?

[Hamz909]

Absolutely right. I didn't know I even got a ticket before the second PCn letter arrived demanding £100- so even the reduced £60 was not an option. 

[FTMDave]

They think they're being clever by making motorists pay £100 instead of £60 with their sordid little scam. 

The problem for them is that people like you, who quite rightly have decided to pay £0, easily have the upper hand legally and would hammer them if they were daft enough to do court.

To the list of their disasters we can add mitigation.  The only way their attendant could have been afraid that you might beat him up is if you were nearby.  In that case the attendant should have mitigated the loss by telling you either to display your permit or move to another part of the car park.

[honeybee13]

I've hidden your post with the attachment because there is identifiable information showing. Please redact and repost.

HB