HCEO cant enforce my warrant - what other options do i have?

[Macks-Headroom]

I would welcome help from Members in connection with the enforcement of a debt.

The last letter from the High Court Enforcement Agent, a company which I had instructed reads as follows:

Extract:

"The agent in this instance reported that is unable to gain peaceful access into the property as the debtor refused entry and was not willing to discuss the matter.

We have no right to force entry and as there were no external assets available to remove the agent has no alternative means to enforce this matter further."

Are there other enforcement options I can consider, please?

The sum of money involved is £1094;

the debtor works as an engineer and I know that they do possess a motor vehicle.

Despite not completing aborting their assignment, the debt collection agent took all of their fees from me as well as a deductions from the partial payments they received from the debtor.

I would be grateful for any advice, steer and / or suggestions, please.

With many thanks.

[dx100uk]

retitled and moved to the bailiff forum.

you say debt collectors got a partial enforcement - will assume you mean these HCEO's you employed? or did you previous use a powerless DCA company as well? as a DCA and a bailiff are two very very different things.....

as for what else you can do.

back to court for enforcement - an attachment to earning order or alike?

dx

 

[jk2054]

Is the debtor self employed or not?

 

Also which HCE did you use?

[Macks-Headroom]

Thank you dx100uk and Jk2054 for taking the time and trouble to read and respond to my post.

I find your responses helpful.  Thank you for re-labelling the title which I had titled wrongly due to my ignorance.

With regards to partial enforcement,

I am sorry I should have clarified that the company which I had instructed (Court Enforcement Services Limited), to enforce the CCJ only collected a fraction of the debt before the debtor stopped payments.

This led Court Enforcement Services Limited to advise that they can no longer help me because the debtor doesn’t seem to have external assets which they could seize, and they could not enter the property by force to secure any property belonging to the debtor.

With regards to filing enforcement proceedings with the Court, are you in a position to say what form I would need to kick start this process, please.

The debtor is not self-employed. I know that they are a qualified engineer as well as a qualified and registered nurse.

I would appreciate any assistance you might be able to throw at me, your time permitting.

[jk2054]

send in DCBL IMO

most aggressive unruly but BEST bailiffs around

sounds to me like you picked a bad firm

anyway if you dont want to do thst you can send an attachment of earnings. Gonna be the attachment which would be N337 i wanna say from memory

[dx100uk]

good he is employed and under PAYE so AEO would be the next step.

dcbl?...no the sheriffs office.everytime ..though neither would not have been able to do anything more than CES achieved.

[il buono]

Hi.  It is pointless arguing over who the best/most aggressive bailiff company are if the debtor is not granting access and there are no assets outside.

You must also bear in mind that you can only enforce against the judgement debtor so unless both are named, the wife’s income/assets are irrelevant.

In your shoes, I would try to locate his car to see where he is storing it. If you can do that, you can contact CES and ask them to have 1 last attempt at the vehicle. You may have to kick up a bit of fuss because companies don’t like cases where they have to work/dedicate time to. You should usually have 3 visits which I’m assuming you haven’t had. This isn’t set in stone but it’s a general rule of thumb.

If this fails, come back and discuss an attachment of earnings order.

With regards charges/fees, companies generally take the compliance fee (£90) up front. I’m not convinced that they should but they do. Anything recovered from the debtor should be divided pro-rata. I would argue that IF they have taken their compliance fee up front, that the little that has been collected should be passed on to you.

Good luck.

 

 

[Macks-Headroom]

Hello dx100uk; Jk2054 and il buono

Thank you all for sparing some time to read my post and offer some constructive advice which has been a source of some learning for me as I'm very much a beginner at this sort of thing. 

I'm genuinely and truly grateful to you all.

I'm now using the information you have provided and to formulate and plan the next steps.

I will probably try a two-pronged approach:

(i) go back to Court Enforcement Services Limited and certain assertions pertaining to the fee they took and the discrepancy around the alleged lack of external assets.

(ii) put in motion an N337. 

I'm assuming that the DCBL has similar limitations to Court Enforcement Services Limited and they might not be able to enter the debtor’s property. Please let me know if my assumption is wrong.

With regards to information about the debtor such as place of work, are there any provisions in the court procedures for getting this type of information?

With many thanks.

[dx100uk]

on consumer civil debt no bailiff no matter what their job title or label, like HCEO or otherwise, has any powers of forced entry 

 

On 14/01/2024 at 10:22, il buono said:

In your shoes, I would try to locate his car to see where he is storing it. If you can do that, you can contact CES and ask them to have 1 last attempt at the vehicle. You may have to kick up a bit of fuss because companies don’t like cases where they have to work/dedicate time to. You should usually have 3 visits which I’m assuming you haven’t had. This isn’t set in stone but it’s a general rule of thumb.

yep CES shouldn't just be dropping it like that

could have easily checked for vehicles in his name, then it's clamping time till he pays.

i dont think the Fee so far of £90 can be questioned. HCEO fees are always paid first when you engage them. so hence you saw little money to date.

 

[Macks-Headroom]

Thank you dx100uk, I absolutely get it.

I'm also doing some research and I've found this website and I'm assessing my options as well taking up your suggestion

- What to do if a defendant doesn't pay money after judgment (EX321) - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Many thanks once again & Best wishes for 2024 to you All.

 

[il buono]

Having reviewed the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations several times, I have seen nothing that prescribes the taking of the compliance fee up front from the debtor. The fact that they all do it does not automatically mean that they are correct in doing so.

My interpretation of the regulations is that ALL stages of enforcement should be split pro-rats from proceeds, including the compliance fee.  Furthermore, if the creditor is not VAT registered, they should not be charged VAT.  Happy to be corrected.

Personally, I would exhaust the bailiff avenue before throwing more money at it by way of applying for an attachment. If you can locate the vehicle, you have a good chance with enforcement.

One tip - Debtors often change ownership of vehicles on paper by registering a different name on the V5 document.  It’s worth noting that for the purposes of enforcement, vehicles become bound from when the writ is issued. In essence, this means change of ownership may not take place.

If you locate a vehicle, you can go online and pay to see when the last change of registered keeper took place. It only costs a small amount.  You won’t be given details (names etc) but you’ll be able to see when the registered keeper was last changed.

 If it was after the date the writ was issued, inform CES of this and request they obtain proof of ownership for the relevant time - At the time the writ was issued.

[jk2054]

sorry did the HCE just ignore the vehicle completely?

[Macks-Headroom]

Thank you, once again - Il buono and jk2054.

1. I have no way of checking the debtor's vehicle, but I know from their lifestyle, needs and wants that they most certainly have a vehicle. We live in diametrical geographical locations.

2. I will most certainly pursue and exhaust the Court Enforcement Services Limited route as the fees they took from the transactions is absolutely disproportionate to the fraction of the debt that was recovered - so thank you for this steer, it costs me nothing be persistent. 

3. I cannot say HCE ignored the vehicle - but they said there was no vehicle they could link to the debtor.

I thank you heartily for your steer, thoughts and ideas.

[jk2054]

is the vehicle in a differeent name, maybe a company vehicle, or on finance?

if so they cant seize that so that may explain why.

But yes go back to them and tell them what the debtor has. Also, and I can’t tell if you know or not, but make/model and reg is helpful so they know what they’re looking for

 

If i may ask what fees did they take and what amount did they recover

[Macks-Headroom]

Hello jk2054 - thank you for responding to my earlier note. I'm sorry for the delay in getting back to you on your latter point. I'm more than happy to share the breakdown of the financials as they were presented to me by CES, please see below:

Debt:   1095.75; Paid: 450.00; Interest: 74.21; Fees + VAT: 326.89; Balance: 1046.85 

So, for every £50 instalment the debtor paid, CES deducted 18.5%

I have no way of checking the make/model of the debtor's vehicle. I have gone back to CES to reiterate that the debtor most certainly has a vehicle, and also requested a clearer picture of the fee structure considering that they have already taken 70% of the amount paid.

[il buono]

Hi. In fairness to CES, if the vehicle is not on the debtor’s drive, it would be difficult for their agent to ascertain whether or not the debtor actually owns a vehicle.

Regarding the fees, are you saying the following:

1. You have received around £135 from the £450 collected thus far?
2. You have paid VAT on the fees?

CES appear to have charged (in fees) £75 for the compliance stage, £190 for the first enforcement stage and a small amount (7.5%) of £95.75 which is the amount they may recover on anything over the first £1000. VAT would have been added to these figures.

You should not have been charged VAT unless you are VAT registered. The debtor would be liable for any VAT payments.

On collecting part payment from the debtor, CES were entitled to take their compliance fee in full first. Following on from that, any other monies recovered should have been paid pro-rata. As your outstanding balance is around 5 times greater than that of CES, it would seem reasonable to split payments at a ratio of 5:1.

It would be worth asking CES if they have made an enforcement stage 2 visit.

 

[unclehr]

OP you've said you know they own a vehicle. Do you know this? If so then just tell CESL the details of the car.

If you don't know the make/model/reg then can you or someone you know closer to the debtor just wander up and down his road one morning/evening to find out?

Also you mention you knew they are employed. If they are then attach their earnings.

[dx100uk]

if the OP knows the reg 

the full car details can be looked up on the .gov MOT website 

[Macks-Headroom]

Thank you, dx100uk, unclehr and il buono - I'm grateful for the time taken to read my posts and your actionable follow-up comments.

In answer to Il buono's two questions, the answer is 'yes' to both questions.

I will use your constructive comments to inform my next actions which I've already commenced.

For example, I've gone back to Court Services Limited to ask some key questions, mindful that their attitude might be not to revisit this case again.

I will use the Subject Access Request route if they prove unwilling to share information.

With regards to the debtor, it seems the next step is to look into the provisions for obtaining information from them with a view to then applying for an attachment of earnings.

Many thanks once again to you all.

[sweep1]

I would consider making a complaint to the company you used that the HECO or HCEA has failed to execute the writ as commanded.

They do seem to have added a First Enforcement Stage fee without entering into a Controlled Goods Agreement with the debtor.
If the debtor fails to pay in full or enter into a CGA (controlled goods agreement) at this stage, A second stage enforcement fee should have been charged. (assuming that at this point there were enough goods to seize in order to discharge the debt)

In brief:

Compliance Fee : Pay in Full or by installments (max 12 months - the creditor must also agree)
First Stage Fee: Pay in Full or enter into a CGA and pay by installments (max 12 months)
Second Stage  : Refuse Compliance and First Stage, CGA can be entered into, but intent is to  remove goods for sale    

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1/regulation/6/made

Stages of enforcement for which fees may be recovered – enforcement of High Court writs

6.—(1) The relevant stages of enforcement under an enforcement power conferred by a High Court writ are as follows—

(a)the compliance stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the receipt by the enforcement agent of instructions to use that procedure in relation to a sum to be recovered up to but not including the commencement of the first enforcement stage, or, where sub-paragraph (c)(i) applies, the commencement of the second enforcement stage;

(b)where the enforcement agent and the debtor enter into a controlled goods agreement, the first enforcement stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the premises in relation to the instructions until the agreement is completed or breached;

(c)the second enforcement stage, which comprises—
(i)where the enforcement agent and the debtor do not enter into a controlled goods agreement, all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the premises in relation to the instructions up to but not including the commencement of the sale or disposal stage;
(ii)where the enforcement agent and the debtor enter into a controlled goods agreement but the debtor breaches that agreement, all activities relating to enforcement from the time at which the debtor breaches the agreement up to but not including the commencement of the sale or disposal stage;

(d)the sale or disposal stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the property for the purpose of transporting goods to the place of sale, or from commencing preparation for sale if the sale is to be held on the premises, until the completion of the sale or disposal (including application of the proceeds and provision of the information required by regulation14).

(2) Where the goods against which enforcement is sought are securities, the sale or disposal stage commences with the provision of a notice of disposal in accordance with paragraph 49(2) of Schedule 12.

Regarding the outstanding debt you could bring the debtor before the court for a N316
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n316-application-for-order-that-debtor-attend-court-for-questioning

or apply for a 3rd party debt order
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/form-n349-application-for-third-party-debt-order

[il buono]

The command on a writ is to take control of the debtor’s goods and sell them.

Attempts have been made to do so and goods cannot be controlled legally.  It is not possible to complain on those grounds.

Adding an ES2 would only mean that more monies recovered would have to be divided pro rata, leaving the creditor with less money.