Countrywide ANPR PCN - in carpark for 10 mins - Disabled Parking Spot - appeal refused by CW - Kingswood Way Great Denham Bedford Bedfordshire MK40 4GH

[mrscsmith]

ok will check here first and wait for update.  

thank you

[FTMDave]

You've been self-critical so I won't twist the knife.

However, you've done things very differently from how we advised and probably made the situation worse.

1 hour ago, mrscsmith said:

The medical centre would not deal with the letter I took it there.

Which is why we said to send it by Royal Mail so they would have to accept it and be forced to face up to their legal responsibilities.

1 hour ago, mrscsmith said:

They said to email the parking company which I did same day.

That was a dreadful idea.  We know Countrywide very well here.  Even by the standards of the private parking companies they are particularly dishonest and "cowboy-ish".  With one Cagger they took the matter personally, even coming out with personal insults.  They were never going to accept an appeal.

They haver told you a pack of lies about consideration & grace periods -

2 hours ago, mrscsmith said:

The signage specifically states that the car park is not for the use of MeikleJohn Pharmacy customers.

And how are you supposed to read the signage if you don't stop to do so?  Of course there are consideration & grace periods.  Even their own trade association says so.  Read point 13 here  https://irp.cdn-website.com/262226a6/files/uploaded/Code_of_Practice_v8.pdf

I really hope you didn't throw away your legal protections by outing yourself as the driver.

It's up to you now.  You can pay £60 and the matter will go away.  Or we can help you fight it.  Your choice.

[mrscsmith]

Sorry I really have messed up.  
I had never heard of the term grace period before so its a big learning curve for me and my stupid brain.
I will follow what you say to the letter in future.
I dont have the money to pay so its will really affect me if I have too.

I have read 13) and it says a grace period of 10 mins but above it says 10 + 5 - is that correct?

I did read the notice board and the print is so small that even standing in front of it was difficult to read.

Thank you for your help and assistance. 

[FTMDave]

Firstly, there is not one person on this forum who hasn't messed up when in legal dispute.  If you have never been in such a position before, it's inevitable you'll make a mistake.  The important thing is to get it right the next time.

The problem now is this.  We drafted the letter on the 21st and we hoped you would have sent it that day, meaning the Medical Centre would have got it on the 22nd, well before Countrywide's deadline to increase their demand from £60 to £100 on the 1st December, giving lots of wriggle room.  Now any letter won't get there till the 28th which is cutting it fine.

Have a read of  https://www.tvmc-gtdenham.org/practice_news/parking-at-the-village-medical-centre/

Two things stand out.  Firstly, there is a grace period so Countrywide are simply liars.  Secondly, it is not the Medical Centre who called in Countrywide but the landlord of the building so that means pushing the Medical Centre to push the landlord, all of which will take time, and it is a great pity about the wasted six days.

I'm off to a football match shortly.  I'll be back around 6:15pm UK time and will draft a new letter to the Medical Centre taking into account this new information about the landlord and the stated grace period.  It has to be worth a shot pushing them to intervene.

[mrscsmith]

There is also a 5-minute grace period after entering the surgery car park for drop off.

Can the grace period be changed from the 10 mins under the rules to the 5 mins that the medical centre state?
Its all so confusing.

Enjoy the football.
Thank You

Should I get the Landlord details of the land registry or is that a bad idea as we are now short on time???

[Nicky Boy]

Private parking companies are obliged to follow their own trade association rules.

They have to do this to allow them to obtain your details from the DVLA.

No if's or but's...

As Dave said, they are simply lying.

PPC's in general are NOT regular businesses who act reasonably.

You must get the idea OUT of your head that you can  deal with them in the normal company / consumer manner.

They are simply after easy £££'s.

Bullying and lying are very common tactics.

[FTMDave]

I'm in a rush now but will answer your questions this evening.

If you can get the landlord's details that would be brilliant, potentially the key to solving the whole thing.

[mrscsmith]

Okay got to go out now but will have Landlords details by this evening hopefully.  

I have downloaded the title register from the land registry online.
It appears that there are no "INDIVIDUAL" landlords with a different address.
The owners address is the medical centre itself!!
Everyone is lying everywhere.

There is one male and one female named as owners but they are NOT listed on the Medical Centre website so looks like they are using it as a postal address. 

Dont know if I can upload the title deeds here??? 

The owners names do not appear anywhere on the medical centre website, they do not appear to be working there.
If the owners are the landlords as I would assume then I think they have to register their personal addresses which they havent done which prevents them being served with any notices.  Not sure on this either.

The medical centre is stated as "Requires Improvement".

[FTMDave]

OK, see what the other regulars think, then send this off to the Medical Centre first thing on Monday, 1st class post, free Certificate of Posting from the post office.

Obviously check for accuracy.  Are Bedford Today and Radio Bedford the local newspaper and local radio?  You know the area better than me!  If so put their names or other names in the bit where I've written "the local rag and the local radio station".

I see they are giving you until 8 December now to pay the £60 which gives us extra time.

Dear Manager,

Re: parking invoice no.XXXXX

I refer to my telephone conversation with the Centre last Monday and in person last Friday.

I agree that it is disgraceful behaviour if someone abuses a car park belonging to a Medical Centre and I understand why your landlord wished to control parking.  But I was not an abuser! 

I entered the car park to park in the disabled spot with my blue badge as I had business at the pharmacy.

I noticed all these car parking notices with their tiny writing and went to read one but nothing was said about blue badge parking.  I began to doubt that I was in the right car park so I left to be on the safe side.  In fact the parking company's invoice showed I stayed 10 minutes.  I was not abusing the car park.  I did what someone is supposed to do when they find out they are not supposed to park - to leave as soon as possible.

The government Code of Practice allows a 5-minute consideration period for someone to read the signs and decide if they wish to stay or not, and a 10-minute grace period to exit the car park.  The International Parking Committee, the trade association which Countrywide Parking Management Ltd are a member of, allow a reasonable consideration period and a 10-minute grace period.  I respected these times.  I could indeed have taken longer as blue badge holders are allowed longer, but I respected the consideration & grace periods for an able bodied person.  The invoice that has been issued is simply unlawful.

The Medical Centre refused to help and told me to write to the private parking company who predictably replied with a pack of lies "There is no Grace period in this car park as it is private land" in complete contradiction to legislation, their own trade association and indeed what is written on the Medical Centre's own website which explains the grace period!

Is this why the landlord employed a private parking company?  To pursue genuine users of the car park and blue badge holders to boot who did nothing wrong with unlawful demands for cash?  I cannot believe so.  I do believe however that the landlord did not do any due diligence before calling in Countrywide Parking Management Ltd as it is very easy to research this cowboy company and read of its dreadful reputation.

I'm sure the local rag and the local radio station will be very interested in such behaviour.  It's not like much goes on in Great Denham so it will be easy to get their interest.

I am writing to ask you please to request the landlord to have this invoice cancelled.  I would also be most obliged if you would send me the landlord's details.

Yours, XXXXX

Edited November 25, 2023 by FTMDave
Typos

[dx100uk]

its is worthy to note like many medical centres it is owned by a group whom are 

 

Queens Park Group Surgery

QUEENSPARKSURGERY.CO.UK

and is a diff address than the CW PCN.

IMHO i think you need to write there.

dx

 

[FTMDave]

Great digging dx.

@mrscsmith Send to both.  Belt & braces.  You might as well enclose a photocopy of the invoice with both letters so they see which car park it is and that you have proof of the 10-minute stay.

I'm not surprised BTW that you're confused about a grace period and such, I've been on the site for eight years and it took me seven to work it out! 

There is a "consideration period" to allow motorists to read the signs - you can't agree to conditions on a sign if you haven't had the chance to read it!

Then there is a "grace period" for you to leave the car park, which in large car parks at busy times can take a while.

You were within these periods. 

However, as you've seen, they like Countrywide regularly ignore the above, they hope the motorist won't know, will think they've received a fine, and just give in.

We even had someone taken to court for a 29 second stay! - you can guess who won.

I don't know if Countryside giving you an extra week to pay the £60 was a mistake or not, but who cares, they've written it, they're stuck with it now, so it gives you a bit more time to push the Medical Centre.

[mrscsmith]

I need some help please with these issues:

1) Royal Mail are taking up to 2 weeks to deliver letters in my area - being a long term problem, this will become an issue as medical centre wont get any letters in time.  Do I take 2 letters by hand tomorrow - one to medical centre and one addressed to the owners????

2) The Landlords of the property are listed in official records as living at the medical centre which isnt the case - I believe I have tracked them down, they are local and the male is a retired doctor but I dont have his home address and the female is a "friend" of his on Facebook.  Do I just copy the letter to them at the medical centre or not contact them?  They seem to be the people with responsibility for hiring the car parking firm.   

3) The real landlord appears to be quite a religious person so may be more approachable???

Edited November 26, 2023 by mrscsmith
correction

[Nicky Boy]

Delivering by hand sounds like a plan.

Just put "Delivered by hand" at the top of the letters and drop them in the post box, or hand them over at reception. 

If it's the only address for the landlord you have,  I'd say it's a legitimate place to send letters...

Another thought...

You could try a search on the government companies house website, in case the landowners run a company which holds the property.

You can search by director names. It may throw up a contact address for document service...

[FTMDave]

I get the impression this place is quite close to you.  If so I would hand deliver the letters today, that would (a) save a day and (b) prevent reception from refusing the letters, which I believe is what happened to you last week.

Hand deliver to the Medical Centre.

Hand deliver to the retired doctor presumed landlord.

Royal Mail tomorrow or hand deliver today depending on distance to Queens Park Group Surgery.

[dx100uk]

using free proof of posting at a po counter and handing over the stamped letters gets them directly into the delivery system bypassing any collection issues.

dx

[mrscsmith]

I have checked Companies House and they are not listed on there, I do believe they are in the same town but that is as close as I can get atm. I do think the owner of the land is now retired as he was a GP previously and marked as retired.

I will hand deliver the letters tomorrow just to be on the safe side and enclose the parking charge notice as well.  Would it benefit to show that Rule 13 of their trades T&C to show grace periods allowed? 

I will have to hand deliver both letters to the medical centre and just change the names on the envelopes (I think)??

I have redrafted the letter to the Medical as follows.  Before I do anything else wrong could someone please check it over for me. If possible I am leaving at 2pm to deliver it today.  Thank You (Notes refer to attached documents already mentioned so they have proof)

BY HAND 27 November 2023

Dear Sir/Madam

ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES OF PARKING COMPANY COUNTRYWIDE PARKING

I would like to bring your attention to the illegal activities of the parking company hired on the land of the medical centre.  I enclose a copy of a reply I received from the above company.

I noticed all these new car parking notices, it is impossible to read the one at the entrance as it would block all the traffic if you stop there. (Note 1).  I drove to read the one at the back of the car park with the tiny writing but nothing was said about blue badge parking. (Note 5).  I began to doubt that it was still okay to park so I left the car park to be on the safe side. Not only am I disabled so movement is slow but the small print on the notice boards is so tiny it was very difficult if not impossible to read. I gave up trying to read it and decided to leave to be on the safe side.  In fact the parking company's invoice showed I stayed 10 minutes.  I was not abusing the car park.  I did what someone is supposed to do when they are not sure about parking conditions and left as soon as possible.

The parking company also states that the disabled spots are not allowed on the private land – surely it is just a trick to fool people to park in them who have a blue badge so that they can be fined each time.  Many disabled people, like myself, get confused and don’t know what is private land so this is another example where the centre is assisting the parking company with handing out tickets by deception. (Note 2).

The government Code of Practice allows a 5-minute consideration period for someone to read the signs and decide if they wish to stay or not, and a 10-minute grace period to exit the car park.  The International Parking Committee (IPC), the trade association which Countrywide Parking Management Ltd are a member of, allow a reasonable consideration period and a 10-minute grace period.  (Note 5). I respected these times.  I could indeed have taken longer as blue badge holders are allowed longer, but I respected the consideration and the grace periods for an able bodied person.  The invoice that has been issued is simply unlawful.  Not only is it a Government Code of Practice but also the IPC’s (which Countrywide Parking is a member of and has to comply with their rules and regulations. (Note 6) Private parking companies are obliged to follow their own trade association rules and they have no option to refuse this compliance as it allows them to obtain a drivers details from the DVLA.

How can this parking company deny the law and that they are breaking it by issuing illegal tickets against all the rules and regulations to line their own pockets and clearly lie?  (Note 3) Is this why the Landlord put them on the land to simply rip off anyone who enters the car park and clearly lie about it as well in writing?  This car park company needs to be removed for their illegal activities.

Furthermore your own website clearly states that grace periods are allowed (Note 4).

I have written to Countrywide to appeal this ticket but they replied with a pack of lies stating "There is no Grace period in this car park as it is private land" (Note 3) in complete contradiction to legislation, their own trade association and indeed what is written on the Medical Centre's own website which explains the grace period!

Is this why the landlord employed a private parking company?  To pursue genuine users of the car park and blue badge holders who did nothing wrong with unlawful and illegal demands for money?  I cannot believe so.  I do believe however that the landlord  did not do any due diligence before calling in Countrywide Parking Management Ltd as it is very easy to research this cowboy company and read of its dreadful reputation.

I'm sure the Bedford Today newspaper and Radio Bedford will be very interested in such behaviour and how the landlord and medical centre are allowing these illegal practices by a car parking company to continue.  It's not like much goes on in Great Denham so it will be easy to get their interest.  It will be great for the Landlord to receive some negative attention for all the illegal tickets that have been produced on his land.

I am writing to ask you please request the landlord to have this invoice cancelled and have confirmation sent to me that it is cancelled.  I also suggest the Landord contact the parking company and find out how many more illegal tickets have been issued on his land. 

I would also be most obliged if you would send me the landlord's details as he is obviously not residing at the medical centre.

Yours sincerely

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by mrscsmith
update

[FTMDave]

That should do the trick.

But you get some legal terms wrong and it would be better to get them right so you show you know what you are talking about.

What Countrywide are doing is not illegal (a crime) but unlawful (not in accordance with the law).  What you have received is an invoice, not a fine, a private company doesn't have the power to issue fines.

So all references to illegal need to be changed to unlawful and can be fined to can be sent an invoice.

[mrscsmith]

I will get that changed before sending.
Thanks very much, I appreciate the help.

Seems they are now insolvent and no longer trading so not sure who is responsible now???

Should I just leave it and wait and see what the replies are to my letters today?

[FTMDave]

I'm at work now so can't deal with this.  Just get the letters off to everywhere we've mentioned.  Then it will depend on the company policy.  Either they will have taken a decision to never cancel invoices, or they will have decided to be flexible.  The letters will show which.

[mrscsmith]

ok leaving now with them.

 

[mrscsmith]

  

New signs put up today that were not there last time, the big board that I went to read at the back of the car park has disappeared. 

One of the smaller board at ground level on the passenger side has had 2 pieces of wood attached to it saying

(1) NO GRACE PERIOD

(2) NO BLUE BADGES. 

They are placed in such a location as to make it impossible for driver to see (only passengers if car slows down to read them) and the one sign on drivers side is up in the air.  Your driving in an entrance way that is quite busy how are you expected to read these signs?

Of course with my brain fog I somehow forgot to take a picture of the one sign saying (1) and (2) above but got to go back next week and will do it again.  Surely these signs are unlawful then.  No surprise they appear after my letter and the disabled spaces are still there as well.

I handed the letters to the reception addressed to the Manager Medical Centre and the Landlords with their names on the envelope. 

 

 

Parking signs.pdf

[dx100uk]

docx file have all your pers details in file info/properties

post hidden 

pdf only please

docx file now PDF post put back up

dx

[mrscsmith]

How do I make into a PDF as I cant upload the photos directly either Please?
Thank You

[honeybee13]

Have a read of our upload guide. Click on the word and it takes you to a new page with instructions.

HB

[Nicky Boy]

Unfortunately, the pics aren't good enough to be able to read properly.

Is there a 1 hour time limit?

From their trade association (IPC) rules...

13.2 Before a Parking Charge is issued Motorists must be allowed a Grace Period save and except when 13.3 is applicable. A Grace Period is a 10 minute period at the end of a Permitted Period of Parking.
13.3 A Grace Period is not required when the Permitted Period of Parking does not exceed 1 hour providing that the signage on the site makes it clear to the Motorist, in a prominent font, that no Grace Period applies on that land.

I can't make it out on the existing pics, but I would suspect not, otherwise staff would constantly be getting tickets.