nip and some dodgy behaviour from police. Opinions needed please.

[Bad lad]

Madness isn’t it. Btw there’s no photos supplied in their disclosure if it’s called that or is it evidence? 
I’ve just looked at the camera operators statement and it’s mentioned but isn’t included can this be added later by police or are they pulling a fast one there too ? 
Please excuse my probable scepticism that they aren’t following procedure,, I’m sure you understand why

camera operator’s statement says  “ a print of the vehicle is produced as police item mrs/01”

[Manxman in exile]

I don't know the answer to the question about whether all photos need to be disclosed by them before the trial.

 

My previous question came from MITM's comment in #43:

 

On 02/03/2022 at 10:08, Man in the middle said:

 

That leaves the issue of you identifying the wrong person as the driver. If the photos are inconclusive as you suggest it is hard to see what evidence the police have that you have told lies when making your s172 return. If they do have any it should have been disclosed to you by now. but since your wife really was driving none can exist...

 

I sort of thought that it was an accepted principle of law that if charged with a crime then the prosecution have to disclose the evidence they intend to rely on to the accused.  (Plus any evidence they have that they don't intend to use, but which may assist the defence).  Of course, as MITM points out, no photos of anybody other than your wife driving can exist.

 

If I'm wrong about having to disclose any other photos that exist, I'm sure MITM or someone else will correct me.

 

I'd also suggest again that you pay attention to the last part of MITM #32 here,

 

On 01/03/2022 at 15:35, Man in the middle said:

 

...Personally I think the prosecution will have to lay out their case before your trial and say whether (a) they are prosecuting you on the basis that you provided the details of somebody other than the driver when you made your first (and only) response,  or (b) they are prosecuting you for failing to respond to the subsequent requests. If (a) a statement from your wife confirming she was the driver may help but if the photos are inconclusive as you suggest I can't see them proving their case anyway. If (b) you need to be armed with the details of the case above...

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by Manxman in exile

[Bad lad]

.Manxman Exactly what I thought, I assumed that picture would have been submitted to the court as evidence. 
personally I think that the date of S172 offence charge makes it clear that they’re referring to the final S172 request. Not the first one that I replied to… they appear to not really want to question that any more and  seem to be accepted it as fact it’s madnes

I like MITM’s Sausage factory statement, there’s obviously only Braun in the factory.

[Bad lad]

Quick update,  nothing new to report at the moment I’m afraid. SJPN was returned special delivery and signed for, I’ve not heard anything back yet. 

[Man in the middle]

Thanks for keeping us posted!

[Bad lad]

So here we go, got my summons today.

As I understand it it will be for a “case management hearing” 

If I’m understanding this correctly they’re messing me around and instead of it being dealt with there and then they’ll adjourn for a date in the future  

date is for mid August and a fair old distance from me (Grimsby).

 

quick question for anybody in the know, (probably MITM) 

What’s the likelihood of me getting it sorted at this hearing ?

Otherwise I feel this madnesses is going to go on for ever so to speak.

also,  obviously I’m going to be incurring further costs, do I just ask the court for reimbursement on a win ?

And would I be wise if the court is critical of the police to ask the court to give me punitive damages to teach them a lesson so to speak ? 
btw… if they did I won’t be forgetting the help from this group and would like to make a donation to help keep it running

As usual all Input welcome, thanks.

[Man in the middle]

Hi Badlad

 

This will not be concluded at the first hearing (unless you plead guilty )

 

I'm out this morning so will respond fully to the other points you raised a little later.

 

MitM

[Man in the middle]

Quote

If I’m understanding this correctly they’re messing me around and instead of it being dealt with there and then they’ll adjourn for a date in the future

 

No that’s not correct. Almost all trials in the Magistrates’ Court undergo a “Case Management” (CM) hearing. It is a similar process to the “plea and directions” hearing in the Crown Court. The idea of it is to prepare the case for trial. You will be asked to indicate the basis of your plea (i.e. why you deny the charge). Also to be determined is what the “issues” in dispute are – what is agreed and what is not agreed. Any witnesses required to attend are also identified and their availability checked.. A trial date will also be fixed and the general idea is that the trial can proceed with no problems on the appointed day.  

 

The basis of your NG plea is that you responded to the s172 request, identifying the person who was driving, within the time allowed. There seems no dispute about this and the witness statement you have been served with confirms it. You don't dispute any of this. The only issue is that the ticket office believes you have nominated somebody other than the driver and, that being the case, it falls to them to prove it “beyond reasonable doubt.” 

 

It is important to realise that the CM hearing will not be judging or assessing the evidence or anything else to do with reaching a verdict. So, unless the prosecutor sees that the evidence is somewhat unconvincing and decides to fold, it will proceed to trial. I would get your wife to write a statement confirming she was the driver and have this available at the hearing. You cannot “ambush” the prosecution with it on the trial day as they should have the opportunity to see her attend court if they wish so that they can cross-examine her. Personally I don’t believe it will be necessary because if the photos you have posted is all they have got they cannot possibly make out their case. You would be entitled, after they have presented it, to submit that there is “no case to answer” (as I mentioned earlier). 

 

Quote

 also,  obviously I’m going to be incurring further costs, do I just ask the court for reimbursement on a win ?

 

Yes. In the event you are acquitted you can ask the court to award reasonable costs that you have incurred.

 

Quote

And would I be wise if the court is critical of the police to ask the court to give me punitive damages to teach them a lesson so to speak ? 

 

The court is unlikely to be critical of the police but if they are they will not order punitive damages. As far as I am aware they have no powers to do so.

 

You should be prepared for a long haul with this. Your trial date is not likely to be much before the end of the year but that is not all there is to it. Magistrates’ Courts “double book” trials as a matter of routine as they frequently fail to go ahead as expected. Your trial will be lower priority at the first attempt and if the other booked trial is ready it will take precedence.

[Bad lad]

Thanks MITM for your detailed response, all understood, do you know if it would be a good idea to request the prosecution (  I’m assuming that they’re in court at this hearing)  take a quick look at the case with a view to dropping it  ? 
Also rather than getting a letter admitting the offence from My Mrs would it be a good idea to take her into the court with me ? Yes I know how to treat her to a good day out

that wouldn’t cause problems later with her being a witness would it ?

[Man in the middle]

Hi BadLad

 

Yes, a prosecutor will be present. It's worth a shot as asking for discontinuation - nothing to lose. If the prosecutor has done his/her job properly the evidence should have been reviewed by then.

 

You can take Mrs BadLad to your CM hearing. She may not see it as much of a day out  as there will probably be lots of hanging around. She can observe from the public gallery. I would certainly let the prosecutor know, at the earliest opportunity, that she is prepared to give evidence that she was driving. Before she can do so she will be asked to provide a statement to that effect, hence the reason I suggested she has one prepared. She cannot be prosecuted for speeding as the offence is now time expired. They had the opportunity to prosecute her when they received your response to the s172  notice but - for reasons that seem known only to them - they chose not to. In the event that she is asked to give "live" evidence on the trial day she will have to remain outside the courtroom until she is called in.

 

I really cannot see, from the evidence you have been served with, just how the prosecution will handle this. If all they have is the two photos you have posted (and if they have anything else they must disclose it to you) I cannot see any court agreeing that they show (at all, let alone "beyond reasonable doubt") that somebody other than your wife was driving.

 

Let me know if you need any other help but do keep us posted as I'm absolutely intrigued! 

[Bad lad]

Thank you yet again. And I’ll definitely be keeping you posted don’t worry