Made Bankrupt - how to overturn it?

[seylectric]

Thanks for that; the company hired by the council have stated that the relevant papers were hand delivered to our address on three occasions. They were not.

 

This morning a car pulled up outside, took a photo of the front of the house and quickly drove off. My guess is that these bas**rds will now state at any appeal that the papers were served "and here's a photo to show which house we served them at". I will of course ask for proof of when the photo was taken but I doubt that my request will be enforced.

 

Read the PM, thanks but with regard to not paying anybody anything surely given that the debt/bankrupcy is in my partners name, that does not prevent me in any way paying anything I want to anybody I want to? Incasso have already told me that they will not discuss the case with me as it is none of my business effectively so why should I follow the council's suggestion and try to deal through them?

 

I know my partner doesn't legally have the option to do this, she must go through the receiver but I can do what the hell I like can't I? Once paid I can't help but feel that it will help any appeal as my partner can then claim that the debt that was the subject of the bankrupcy petition no longer exists in any event; at that point who paid it is surely irrelevant as long as it wasn't her. Although she has not yet had the meeting with the receiver, that's not until next Wednesday, 6th December. Who is to say she has even read her mail yet?

[bottomburp]

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[seylectric]

Interesting stuff, all pretty much what I have ascertained so far but it's very useful to have it in this form and I appreciate your efforts. I have already made arangements to visit the court office tomorrow and get copies of all the documentation relative to the case. I have also asked the council to send me any documentation they have.

 

However I do think you are missing the point re. the payment to the council - I still cannot see any reason why anybody cannot (without the debtors knowledge, for example) repay a debt but the point here is that I am not repaying the council on her behalf, I am repaying them on MY behalf since my name is on the council tax bill, it's my money and I want to pay my bill.

 

Remember no action has been taken against me personally so I am not under the court's/OR's restrictions. Indeed if I pay the whole amount at a bank there need not be any indication as to who paid the bill, just the fact that it was paid! The point I am actually making is that, rules or not, once I have paid it there is presumably very little they can do about it.

[Movingon]

I'm getting the impression that now, whatever happens to the original debt, the bankruptcy will stand... having read what I have read above, you should not pay anything and focus yours and your partners' energies on getting it overturned on the grounds that (a) it was incorrectly served, (from a paperwork perspective) and (b) your partners assets exceeded her debts at the time of the Order.

 

 

What BB says above is important too - get their dates, times and places from them as to when paperwork was served without giving anything away; say "thank you", and then come up with several corroborating pieces of evidence to show where your partner actually was at that time and on that day; preferably also witness statements that she was not approached by anyone at the time they say she was served. If the paperwork truly was NOT served as you claim, it should be easy indeed to trip them up on this; I doubt they have the resources (or indeed any motivation) to put her under surveillance so that they can choose a time, date and place to fabricate service details.

[seylectric]

Yes, the more I look into it the more it seems you both might be correct. Apart from the lack of paperwork I am particularly focussing my attention that as the assets indeed exceed the debt - including everything else we owe, which is probably no more than 3 or 4k (apart from my own car loan) - by some considerable margin. We could have got a loan but preferred to plod on and try to get ahead. we were very nearly there too, that's what is so infuriating about having been saddled with a load more legal bills.

 

Just for the record we got into this mess due to a six-year battle with her ex for possession of the property. We got it but not the result we wanted after a series of inept performances from three solicitors, 25k to pay him off and a 16k legal bill, hence the 35k remortgage.

 

Just one nagging aspect which I haven't really touched upon - what happens to the house and mortgage, assuming the worst i.e. we don't get this overturned?

[bottomburp]

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[bottomburp]

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[seylectric]

Many thanks for your not inconsiderable help and advice on this matter. It means much more to us than I can possibly convey here, not least because nobody else has to date really offered anything in the way of practical advice, all those I have contacted have simply reiterated the standard procedure of bankrupcy. I can read that on any relevant website!

 

Armed with a letter of authorisation from my partner I will be going down to the county court shortly to ask for copies of all the documentation relating to this case. I already spoke to the OR last Friday and advised him that we will be seeking to get this overturned and that I felt no action should be taken until then, and having learnt more since, I contacted him again yesterday to ask for it not to be published.

 

As for the post, I'm not aware that much goes missing although I do trade myself and at least one parcel a month outgoing goes missing - the latest being a Special Delivery item. The Royal Mail did manage to lose 13 million items last year!

 

That said, the firm hired by the council to bring the action to court have indicated that correspondence was hand delivered. Strange then that I had to ask the council for their name and address, I've never heard of them until making enquiries when we received the letter from the OR on Friday.

Edited July 9, 2008 by seylectric

[bottomburp]

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[seylectric]

Fantastic news!

 

I've asked the court in writing for "copies of all documentation relating to this case including any transcripts of any hearings which took place".

 

There isn't much of it, eleven pages including cover pages and not a single copy of the documents that were supposedly served upon us, or more accurately my partner.

 

However the good news is on one page - in fact it's just one word: "terraced".

 

The witness statement of the guy that served the papers says that "I did on Friday 23rd of June 2006 make an attempt to serve the demand on the above named Debtor, which transpires to be a Victorian terraced house."

 

Why is this so significant? Because our house is a SEMI-DETACHED property, not terraced!

 

Futhermore he goes on to say "I was unable to meet with the debtor but met with an adult male, aged about 55 years, from within who in answer to enquriy* confirmed the Debtors continued occupancy thereat."

 

(* = that's how it's spelt on the letter)

 

Huh? This appears to be a figment of his imagination! Neither of us have spoke with anybody, although there is nobody here aged 55!!! I'm 46 - I might have aged a bit this last week or so but most people who know me would say I look younger than I am. My point being that there is no-one here who could even be mistaken for a 55 year old (my mrs. is 51 but obviously not male!!!)

 

As it happens I think that's irrelevant although it all helps. The key point for me is the word "terraced" - it doesn't describe our house!

[seylectric]

Been thinking about this too - the papers were allegedly served "through the letterbox" by this chap from a firm called Ely Consultants in Thetford - that's about 300 miles away!

 

My guess is that he has done an internet search somewhere of my street address for a description of the properties - I wouldn't know where to look but if such a site exists it would almost certainly describe my street as one with mostly Victorian terraced housing. But the ones in the middle, including ours, are semi-detached.

 

My partner has suggested that he got the idea of a "55 year old man" by assuming that her partner is a few years older than her given that she is 51. Not that it matters but I don't think this guy has been anywhere near the house in his life - I don't think the papers were served to the wrong house, I don't think they were ever served at all.

[bottomburp]

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[Movingon]

This activity, if proven in court to be what you think it is, would be an extremely serious criminal offence by the bailiff who claims he attempted to Serve. It ranks with Perjury and could carry a long prison term; this isn't just making unlawful demands to pay like the normal debtor stuff that bailiffs do; as has been already stated in this thread Bankruptcy is an extremely serious and grave matter and to falsely bring a court to issue a Petition is... like... wow - words fail me.

[seylectric]

BB, as stated above I have the paperwork from the courts, I asked for EVERYTHING in writing including the transcripts (no sign of them) and frankly got back very little. I will be more than happy to make copies of everything available, just email me at [email protected].

 

Yes, Thetford as in Norfolk; I'm guessing a little but I reckon around 300 miles away!

 

SL, I want to fry someone's balls for this and once we get this annulled I am seriously considering asking the police to investigate this matter. As I have maintained throughout, we received NOTHING and my guess is that this chancer simply said he had served the documents to get his commission payment. I repeat, my guess is that he never came anywhere near our house! The front door is three feet away from the gable end, a five year old could not mistake it for a terraced house!!!

 

There is another issue too. I have offered to pay the debt to the council in full and they refused several times saying that it was "too late" and I had to contact Incasso. Incasso refused to discuss the issue with me because it was not in my name but my partner's. Forgetting her situation for a moment. this puts me in an untenable position and I believe that I am within my rights to request that the debt is written off because I have repeatedly been denied the opprtunity to pay it.

 

Once we have secured the annullment I will be asking the council to write it off as a gesture of goodwill pending legal action against them if they refuse to do so. there is also the possible issue of defamation of character against my partner. I couldn't find any record earlier today on the Gazette site but as expected we received half a dozen letters form solicitors etc. offering to take on the case.

 

I have hand delivered a letter to the OR explaining the situation and asking that publication of the bankrupcy order is suspended and if it has already been done (as seems to be the case) then he should immediatly write to the Gazette asking for the entry to be removed pending the hearing to have it annulled.

 

I have an appointment with the CAB tomorrow with a view to finding a solicitor that will take this on. The immediate priority is to have this annulled but I need advice on how to complete the application form correctly; after all I, or my partner, does not want to lose the rematch on a technicality!

 

PLEASE continue to offer your opinions, it's encouraging and although I haven't broken out the champagne yet, it's definately been placed on ice!

 

Thank you for your help and support to date. I will add to this thread as things progress. After six or seven horrendous years trying to pull back from the brink this have wrecked us for the past few days. The annullment is just the beginning, but I want blood (metaphorically speaking) for what they have put us through, and more importantly what thousands of people are going through every day whose crime is simply not being able to afford to pay; a "crime" which isn't even a criminal offence! The whole thing has left me shocked, but not surprised and in the 21st century that's not right.

[Movingon]

Just one last suggestion for tonight; write to your MP once you have a Judgement in your favour and the Bankruptcy set aside. Explain to him the details of the case and the apparent unbelievably flagrant criminal behaviour on the part of the Bailliffs, and point out the holes in the system which exist - i.e. no proof required to substantiate service, bailliffs not accepting payment, nobody listening to pleas for help, etc etc etc. The whole bloody debt collection industry needs regulation urgently and this case could easily see your MP helping you, especially if you have won already when you contact them.

 

BB, as stated above I have the paperwork from the courts, I asked for EVERYTHING in writing including the transcripts (no sign of them) and frankly got back very little. I will be more than happy to make copies of everything available, just email me at [email protected].

 

Wouldn't the Data Protection Act or the Freedom of Information Act help here?

[seylectric]

PS re Google Earth, I've had a look at that and for my area the photos are unclear at street level but are at least two years out of date. The council have biult what they laughingly called a park, which has taken over two years to complete (and costs went up from £6m to £16m). The Google Earth pics are pre-new park so are well out of date.

 

A while ago I remember looking at a site which described the type of properties on a particular street anywhere in the country and shows a few pics. I can't remember the web addy for the site but it's my guess it is a site like this that was used to reach the conclusion that we lived in a terraced house. I honestly believe that the bailiff or whoever never came within 300 miles of our house, and as i said once the annulment is secured I intend to report it to the police with the insistance that they determine where he was on the dates he claimed to have hand-posted the documents.

[seylectric]

Believe me I intend to follow this through. My missus isn't a strong person in situations like this and crumbles every time. I'm more resiliant and intend to follow this through to the bitter end, although years of fighting injustices like this (you know what I'm like) is taking it's toll.

 

I intend to write to my MP, the local radio station (who love slating the local council in their newscasts) the National press, Granada Reports, BBC Watchdog and anybody else that will listen.

 

Practices like this need to be stopped, I'm sick and tired of being illegally exploited for profit and worrying myself sick as a result and as far as I am concerned the fight goes on. I will have my day in court but it doesn't end there.

[bottomburp]

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[seylectric]

Let's get even when you've got it set aside! Concentrate on the job in hand for the moment!

 

Don't worry, I'm not daft! i'm totally focused on this.

 

You can't have got all of the papers from the court. There must be a copy of the original petition and a copy of the statement saying who it was served on in the court file.

 

I'm puzzled about this too, the were no original documents, just letters to the court stating that the papers had been served. I did ask in writing for EVERYTHING and when the stuff was handed over I did say "Are you sure that's everything?" The answer was "Yes, that's all we have".

 

Did you find an entry against you partner in the Gazette? If the OR has published it should be on the site I gave you. He won't be able to publish a retraction until the bankruptcy has been annulled. Also, did you look on that site for "substituted service".

 

I didn't find any entery but there must be one presumably given that we are now receiving "junk mail" letters from solicitors and firms touting for our business. I have an appointment with a local solicitor this afternoon, we'll take it from there.

[seylectric]

Not such a good day. I spoke to the solicitor, who said she had never heard of a case being annuled and said that all the server had to do was say to the court that I was the "55 year old man" he spoke to and that would be the end of that.

 

She also said it might cost around £2000 and as the council were right to bring the case since we owe the money anyway the judge would be unlikely to award the costs of bringing the case against them. She didn't seem particularly interested that the house described was not ours, and said we needed all the papers from the company who brought the case. Why? It's surely too late for the papers now, we haven't got them, that's the whole point! It doesn't matter what they contain?

 

She also said that the council would immediately bring the case again, and if we end up with a huge legal bill we will not then be able to pay the council tax arrrears. I put it to her that is was grossly unfair to heap more debt on us since I had previously made an offer of payment which was rejected and that if we had known about the case we would have paid anyway, but again she didn't think that was much of an argument. I came away with the feeling that the whole thing is a waste of time and we might as well go down the route of paying everything off via the OR and eventually get it annuled that way.

 

We have had a raft of letters from solicitors etc. through the post and I spoke to one of them, but he suggested that despite everything the court would not now annul it until EVERYTHING had been paid off including the OR's fees. He also gave the impression that the judge would be more concerned about whether or not the debt was actually valid rather than the fact that proper procedures had not been followed. The whole thing's a joke.

 

As you can imagine I'm feeling pretty low about the whole thing. Either way it looks as though we are stuck with a massive bill and it's grossly unfair on us. Despite what everyone says I still can't help but think I would be better just bypassing the OR and paying it off, at least then when I bring the annulment case I can state that the debt that was the subject of the original hearing does not now exist - that has to be a plus point?

[bottomburp]

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[seylectric]

I agree it matters that we don't have the papers but as it stands I have spoken to at least half a dozen solicitors etc. including one who specialises in bankrupcy and they are all saying the same thing, (1) that it's unlikely the judge will believe us and (2) that since we owe the money anyway it won't change the court's decision!

[bottomburp]

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[seylectric]

Thanks, I know they can be annuled if everything is paid off - the problem with that is the horrendous fees involved in reaching that stage. As well as the debt and the hearing costs, there is the OR's £1650 fee, then because there is a property involved the OR has to appoint a trustee or something and I have been warned that those bastards charge anything between 5 and 20 grand.

 

I have been speaking to a solicitor tonight who specialises in this, she seems to be clued up and reckons the best way is just to let her take care of getting everybody paid off and move on. Her fees are a flat fee of £4,500 but her intervetion will mean that a trustee will not need to be appointed by the OR.

 

She said that the main issue with trying to have it annuled on the grounds that the papers weren't served is that the OR will have by then appointed a trustee and by that time it will have cost us more than it's worth especially as we are unlikely to get it back. I haven't given her the go-ahead yet but our hands seem to be tied to a point in respect of the fact that to delay any longer, ort try to fight it might cost us a five-figure sum.

 

It's a bitter pill to swallow and I will be doing all I can later on to recover whatever it costs us but we do need someone on board who knows what they are doing.

 

Will have a look at that link though, there might just be some ammo on there that will help us.

[bottomburp]

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