HMRC missing payment

[bitonp]

Just anther one.. Self employed.. pay my tax on time via mobile. Get letter for aforementioned Mrs C Graham, stating I have not paid. mae 'the call' .. speak a guy who refused to give his name, walk him through it and he days.. thanks.. I have actioned this, and we will let you know when we find the payment.

2 weeks later get another letter form Mrs C Graham, calling me effectively, a liar, and threatening court action.

 

Big Error!

 

Spoke to chap om hone.. who did give his name, and agreed I did phne previously. Have recorded teh time of this conversation, and let him know that I have paid, and will be following this up.

 

Just sent recorded delivery letter to her stating all details of the payment, plus informing her she is provably guilty of 'lebel' and 'defamation of character'.. plus debatably defrauding the Uk Treasury , who the act for as 'debt collectors' . Have copied to Esward Troup (current head honcho of HMRC), and Phillip Hammond.... so I now will have proof that she:

a) Receievd this letter

b) Cannot doubt that I have paid HMRC.. all details of the payment have been sent with the letter.

She now has 7 days to agree that t=she has received the letter, and a couple of other facts... and 14 das to find teh payment they have lost. I have also said that I will take legal action aganst HMRC and 'her' as an employee of HmrC if they do not sort this in the 14 days.

 

How many payments do they receive for £x.n (specific amount, in a 48 hour period? I deal in huge amounts of data (think Twitter et all) as a day job.. and regularly get sub second response on multi billion row data sets.... I suspect they get one or two only for that amount in a 48 hour period.

 

Dont get mad....get even

[think about it]

Sorry but you're shouting at an automated letter. If you do indeed work with huge amounts of data then you'll understand that almost all of the processes that deal with it are automated. For all intents and purposes Mrs. C Graham has never seen the letter, least of all committed some sort of defamatory act on your character.

[BazzaS]

Just sent recorded delivery letter to her stating all details of the payment, plus informing her she is provably guilty of 'lebel' and 'defamation of character'.. plus debatably defrauding the Uk Treasury

 

That'll tell them!!

 

Ohh, and it would be "libel", not "lebel".

Except it isn't, in the same way it isn't "defamation of character" : which would both require not only 'publication' of the statement but that that publication caused "serious harm" to your reputation.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2013/26/contents

S1 for "serious harm"

 

Who was it 'published' to? If sent only to you (and you don't believe it) how has it caused serious harm to your reputation ..... as no one else knows about it!.

 

Even if you thought it caused 'serious harm' to your reputation (to any group other than yourself!) ; I doubt you'd find solicitors wanting to take this on on a "no win, no fee" basis, so do you have a spare £20k to fund the High Court action you are threatening.

 

Dont get mad....get even

 

Or spout off baseless legal threats in response to a computer generated letter : so they can see how mad about it you are feeling!.

At least someone at HMRC can have a good chuckle at the baseless threats : I wonder if they have a "rant of the week" sweepstakes ......

[bitonp]

Ohh, and it would be "libel", not "lebel".

Excuse the typo.. so sorry .

 

Except it isn't, in the same way it isn't "defamation of character" : which would both require not only 'publication' of the statement but that that publication caused "serious harm" to your reputation.

Hmm... so the fact they have a marker on my account, making me a 'bad payer' is not serious harm? 'Publication' can be internal or external. When I called on Saturday I was informed that my account is now under 'scrutiny' by the investigation team as I am a 'defaulter'.. I call that serious harm.

 

Yes.. I do have £20k to spend to take them/her to court... if that is required. Lets wait and see what happens shall we.. before we start spouting things. All I was saying was that its worthwhile copying any letters to people who are 'relevant' but outside of HMRC. That way they have another reason to reply... and will have less of a chance to say 'we didn't receive your communication' .

 

Alternatively, you can just pay up twice, try and reclaim it, while rolled over allowing them to tickle your tummy.... as some people have done.

Edited March 20, 2017 by bitonp

[bitonp]

So much for the 'quotes' eh? Ooops

[BazzaS]

Yes.. I do have £20k to spend to take them/her to court... if that is required. Lets wait and see what happens shall we.. before we start spouting things.

 

She now has 7 days to agree that t=she has received the letter, and a couple of other facts... and 14 das to find teh payment they have lost. I have also said that I will take legal action aganst HMRC and 'her' as an employee of HmrC if they do not sort this in the 14 days.

 

Well, you were the one saying you'd take legal action in 14 days ....... and for defamation / libel, that'd be the High Court ......

 

Alternatively, you can just pay up twice, try and reclaim it, while rolled over allowing them to tickle your tummy.... as some people have done.

 

Alternatively, you could just point out "I've paid, you've made an admin error, please fix it", and not launch into unnecessary threats of legal action and accusations of debateably defrauding the Treasury (how is it defrauding the Treasury? They aren't taking money for themselves that should be going to the Treasury.....??)

[bitonp]

Alternatively, you could just point out "I've paid, you've made an adminicon error, please fix it", and not launch into unnecessary threats of legal action and accusations of debateably defrauding the Treasury (how is it defrauding the Treasury? They aren't taking money for themselves that should be going to the Treasury.....??)

 

Yeh.. did the 'nicey nicey' .. you made an admin error thing with the first letter that cane on 3/3/2016. Although I was told that would be actioned.. it wasn't (as I discovered on Saturday when I called). So second, more threatening letter, gets replied to in a way that is factual... to the point.. and with similar 'recriminations' that they gaily dole out... whats good for the goose etc etc.

 

Why have the defrauded the Treasury? Simples... sort of ;-)

 

1. They get paid by the treasury to :

a) Collect Taxes that are due

b) Inform the treasury of how much is due to the Treasury, and how much is owed.

 

2. So , say for arguments sake I paid £20,234.19 in taxes that they have 'lost', but actually have in an account. They inform the treasury that it is due £x + £20,234.19,, and that they have already collected £y + £20,234.19.

 

3. Chancellor Unce Phil now takes that figure.. puts it into his spreadsheet,, and comes up with a figure he needs to raise to pay off his salary.. sorry.. the costs of running the country.... but he is wrong by £20,234.19 .

 

4 That incorrect figure is because he has been misinformed by the people we pay (please note) to give him the right answer... so he can make something approaching the right figure that need to be raised. (Bear with me.. we all know that statement is not what happens... but what should happen).

 

As HMRC charge the Treasury for collecting, and are paid for out of taxpayers money in teh first place, they are charging for a service they are not performing... that.. at least in my book.. is fraud.

 

Lets face it.. £20k (hypothetical figure) is minimal.. but what if there are say, 1000 of these incorrect charges happening... plus the interest they are adding to the 'bill'... which will be taken off when they find the money.... then we are talking significant amounts that they are misquoting to the Treasury, that needs to know much better figures.

 

Maybe we aren't actually in debt anymore? who knows? Not HMRC that is for sure.

 

Add to that I deal in Huge data as a day job I regularly get subsecond responses on data sets running into the billions of rows.. how much data do these guys get on their bank accounts that means it can take weeks/months to find a payment in a given 48 hour period? Nowhere close to what I am doing on a daily/hourly basis. And yes.. I have also ffered to put such a system in for them.. would take no longer than a week to setup, and assuming something like 100m bank transactions per year... probably another month to load that data from their bank accounts for the last 6 years in a searchable state. So we could get max 1-2s fresponse times when someone tells them x was paid in between these 2 dates... and they could find it there and then... while you are on the phone .. maybe that too far anvanced for teh quill pens they use... backed p by carrier pigeon.

[BazzaS]

As HMRC charge the Treasury for collecting, and are paid for out of taxpayers money in teh first place, they are charging for a service they are not performing... that.. at least in my book.. is fraud.

 

Even if the Treasury decided they had a contract with HMRC, and were being charged for a service they weren't performing : that'd be a breach of contract.

For it to be fraud, there would have to be dishonest intent. (Fraud Act 2006).

 

The public sector can be very inefficient, but that doesn't equate to 'dishonesty'.

 

It may be "fraud, in your book"..... but that 'book' is drama-llama'ing, again.

Allegations of fraud and threats of (High Court) legal action within 14 days for defamation : do you think that makes them more or less likely to take you seriously?

If you have a valid complaint but go OTT : they may be less inclined to take you, (and the complaint) seriously, writing the threats off as "huff & puff".

[bitonp]

Tell you what.. lets see how this pans out.. and I'll let you know. Its worked with HMRC re my dads Tax on pension, while 'Govt Agnecies' forced him into a nursing home, which he had to pay for himself, while they took Tax out of his pension first... tied themselves in knots, and ended up settling... (yes.. it took 6-8 months. but we got there in the end), so lets see what happens.

 

Either you are right and I'll pay twice, knock it off my next tax bill.. or I'll not pay, again, at all.. let them take me to court, and play it that way.. either way they will end up looking silly... sillier than you say I look to them now

[BazzaS]

 

Either you are right and I'll pay twice, knock it off my next tax bill.. or I'll not pay, again, at all.. let them take me to court, and play it that way.. either way they will end up looking silly... sillier than you say I look to them now

 

Or, they'll (shock, horror) they find the payment, and instead of paying twice, or not at all, they'll realise that you have paid, and you'll have paid once only.

But that doesn't give you anything to drama about or threaten legal action, or cry "fraud", does it?.

[bitonp]

Well.. actually. they have had 4 weeks to look already....and seem incapable even when told which account it is n. If they then threaten me with legal action and assume I have 'chosen to ignore their demands' then I think it s not drama... it is reality. There are many people who pay up on these demands out of fear.

 

As I say, we will just wait and see....

[BazzaS]

Well.. actually. they have had 4 weeks to look already....and seem incapable even when told which account it is n. If they then threaten me with legal action and assume I have 'chosen to ignore their demands' then I think it s not drama... it is reality. There are many people who pay up on these demands out of fear.

 

As I say, we will just wait and see....

 

Your reaction is the drama-ing. They won't go to court (when they catch up admin-wise with your payment), and something tells me you won't be going to the High Court (if they don't reply within 14 days) either ......

So, settle down, and stop providing them with candidates for "rant letter of the week"; it isn't going to do you any good.

[slick132]

Hi Bit,

 

Your posts and replies have been moved into your own thread to avoid further hijack of an older thread.

 

There's no element of fraud, libel or defamation involved here and when you use language like that, HMRC aren't going to take your complaint seriously.

 

Use this address to complain to HMRC in writing :-

 

HM Revenue & Customs

Self Assessment

PO Box 4000

Cardiff

CF14 8HR

 

Supply your UTR; the time and date of your payment; method of payment; any ref. no. used when making the payment; a copy of any document you used or received in response to the payment; anything else you think will help them find your payment.

 

Keep the letter focused and objective and then wait for their reply which may take some weeks.

 

What you need is for them to find your payment and making accusations will not help your cause.

 

[bitonp]

Totally agree....

 

However.. I gave the account it was debited to (sort conde and account number) both on the first phone call.. and in the letter I have sent. It is incorrect for an 'auto generated email' to put a slur on someones character, that should be signed by a person who is actually a person.

BUt thansk for the address.. if I have not heard in their 2 weeks.. I will send to that as well.

 

NOt folowong this thread anymore.. as I thin it is being hijacked by ersons paid to do just that .

Thanks for teh useful info though

[BazzaS]

NOt folowong this thread anymore.. as I thin it is being hijacked by ersons paid to do just that .

 

Well, it is in a thread of its own now to prevent YOU hijacking someone else's thread.

 

As for pay, (it seems likely that is aimed at one or both of slick & myself) : Great!! Who do I send my invoice to?

 

Or do you just mean "I didn't get the replies I wanted so I'm going to make baseless accusations and stomp off in a huff!" ?

[think about it]

Dear HMRC, recently I tried - albeit in vain to help someone realise that your automated processes for chasing up outstanding amounts are just that, and to explain that their ire was misdirected. As it now seems that the person I tried to help has accused me of working for you I'm directing my invoice to you. If you don't pay it I'm going to write increasingly strongly worded letters which will undoubtedly end up being discussed at your staff training days as an example of how to deal with a difficult customer. Yours sincerely, TAI.