First time claming Universal Credit - am I up to date regarding my rights?

[moodygirl86]

Hi everyone (apologies in advance for length),

 

I finished a fixed term contract on Tuesday, and the next day put in a claim for Universal Credit. This is my first time on UC and I have my initial meeting this Monday. I last claimed in April when it was still a case of JSA/separate housing benefit, so having it in one lump sum monthly will definitely be more convenient. However, I do have a couple of minor concerns about what may or may not have changed since UC came into effect.

 

1) When I was on JSA, one or two members of staff tried to put pressure on me to give access to my Universal Jobmatch account. I wasn't happy to do this for the same reasons as lots of other people - I'm an adult who can and should be trusted to do my own jobsearch and don't appreciate being monitored like a naughty child, so it's mainly out of principle. Also, although I have an account and don't have anything against the site per se, it is not the only method of jobsearching and so wouldn't reflect the full amount of jobhunting I had actually done. Therefore, I prefer to write it all down on paper and was able to quote the necessary lines from the Toolkit to back up my right not to allow access.

 

2) Again, while on JSA, a different advisor threatened to "take action against me" if I did not lay my jobsearch out in the exact format ("What I will do", "what I did") in the A4 booklet. I preferred to do it like a diary, as this gave me more room to write down every employer I had applied to, whereas he wanted me to cram a week's worth into half a page (it did say to be as specific as possible!). Basically I'd have been writing the same thing twice every week but in different tenses, which is plain stupid. Anyway, I spoke to the Jobcentre manager (again quoting the bit from their Toolkit where it says they can't specify to jobseekers what form their evidence takes) and the manager confirmed that as long I was keeping a record, that was fine and that they do allow flexibility.

 

Now, to my concerns regarding Universal Credit. I notice in my confirmation email about Monday's meeting, it says: "Please make sure you've registered with Universal Jobmatch on GOV.UK and bring your login details with you to the meeting." I'm fuming at this! Even the most militant advisor/coach under JSA never asked me for these! What I want to know is, can I still use those nuggets from Chapter 3 of the Toolkit to defend my right to privacy? I notice they all say "We cannot mandate/specify to a JSA claimant..." I don't want to be caught out by semantics. I know it would be illegal under Data Protection law to do this, but I also know that wouldn't bother some DWP staff. I can't find any evidence this has changed, but can anyone confirm that those quoted sections from the Toolkit are still valid under Universal Credit? I have written them down to take with me on Monday in case anyone gives me a hard time, but need to make sure it's still correct.

 

Thanks in advance.

[theronstar]

Hello,

 

Your contention seems to be about recording your Jobsearch in your own way as opposed to following the pattern your work coach is asking of you?

 

For an easy life, I just followed their instructions when I made a claim for Universal Credit.

 

For them, the beauty of having claimants on Universal Jobmatch means they can monitor your Jobsearch at a click of a button. They, could be any of the following

 

 

• Work Coach
  
• Their manager
  
• UC Call Centre
  

There is a notepad on Universal Jobmatch and you can write in evidence of your Jobsearch in there.The notepad is a blank box, so you can write in your Jobsearch in the way that you like.

 

I do not know anything about the toolkit to be able to answer the other part of your question. I would hazard a guess that you would struggle to apply rules designed for JSA to Universal Credit, unless said rules had been updated to encompass Universal Credit too.

[moodygirl86]

Hi Theronstar. I don't have a Work Coach as of yet, so they haven't asked me to do anything so far. Anyway, I've tried that Jobmatch notepad and it seems to have a character limit. If it crashes - as it frequently does - I shouldn't imagine they would like that. Perfect sanction excuse, which is probably why IDS loves it. No, I'm going to cover myself with a paper based written record. My question was whether I can do this under UC, never mind ask for your login details, but as you're not sure, I'll wait for some of the other CAGGers to weigh in with their two cents.

 

Thanks

[theronstar]

Sorry, I will revisit my response.

 

The first person to see you gathers your evidence for your claim e.g passport, proof of address etc. and then sets up your subsequent appointments with your work coach.

 

The notepad does have a character limit but you can just click the submit button every time that you are approaching it. I never had it crash on me but then if there were glitches in the system that were causing it to crash on claimants, DWP would have very bad press if they went on to sanction claimants for said glitches. Personally, when I am filling out an on-line form, I write my response into MS Word and then copy and paste it into the form in case the form has timed out whilst I was writing my response.

 

You can make a paper based written record because I was doing that at first. My advisor eventually asked me to move over to Universal Jobmatch and I moved over without really thinking about whether I had to.

 

Good luck!

[theronstar]

https://about.universalcredit.service.gov.uk/kms/Pages/Looking_for_work_-_Universal_Jobmatch.htm

[moodygirl86]

EDIT: Just saw the link you posted, thanks! So it looks like I don't have to give access just yet. Were you asked for your login details at any point in your UC claim, as this is what I find an outrageous invasion of privacy.

[honeybee13]

Thanks for sharing your experience. So the initial meeting sounds no different from the first one you have on JSA, collecting ID and arranging appointments/sign on times etc. That's fine - were you asked for your UJM login details as well? That's what I find an outrageous invasion of privacy.

 

Hello moodygirl.

 

My recollection is that you don't have to divulge your login details, but hopefully some of the forum regulars will confirm that when they're able to get here.

 

HB

[theronstar]

When I signed up for Universal Credit, one of the first things that they asked was for me to give them access to my Universal Jobmatch profile. I said yes without thinking, to be honest.

 

However, since reading your initial question I have gone on-line and have seen other people pose the question too!

 

It all sounds a bit Big Brother ish.

[moodygirl86]

Frighteningly Big Brotherish.

 

Thanks for your reply Honeybee. I'm also going to read up on the UC regs Theronstar has kindly posted. If I have to, I'll also argue that it's one of the conditions when you sign up not to share your login details, so that request is unreasonable.

 

I'll look forward to hearing other people's experiences of this.

[theronstar]

The cynic in me reckons the person you will meet with may not be well versed in the benefit they are administering!

 

Print out anything - from the UC site - that backs up what you are going to argue.

[moodygirl86]

Thanks, will do.

 

I remember the bloke who didn't like the way I'd written out my jobsearch was making his threats about "taking action", which is when I took pleasure in telling him that wasn't true, according to the DWP's own toolkit (Chapter 3, Paragraph 82). The manager happened to be nearby and laughed "Blimey, she knows it better than we do!" Killed two birds with one stone, as the jobsworth realised I wasn't going to be pushed around, and so did his boss. To be fair, this particular bloke was a lot politer whenever he signed me on after that.

 

Friends have asked me if I'm not concerned about being labelled a troublemaker if I seem too well informed about my rights, but I can't say that bothers me. It's very important that everyone knows their rights! The only people that will object to this are those who want to exploit you, and why would we want to bend over backwards to please them anyway?

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Please have a browse through Post #16 of this link. It covers most of the questions you ask and confirms your interpretation of your rights.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...ant-commitment

 

Neither The Welfare Reform Act 2012 which set up Universal Credit (UC), or any legislation or Statutory Instrument relating to UC since, have eroded, reformed or rescinded the Claimants' rights, or the nuggets you refer to.

 

There is reference in the UJM Toolkit to the effect that UC does not affect the claimants' right to choose how to present evidence of job seeking activity or the claimants' rights under the Data Protection Act, the Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights.

 

There are also Freedom of Information responses from DWP confirming that fact.

 

 

PS: Theronstar:

Doh-- "... When I signed up for Universal Credit......" and "... My advisor eventually asked me to move over to Universal Jobmatch and I moved over without really thinking about whether I had to...."

I've been trying, on a thread you started yourself, to help you prepare for a Tribunal Hearing you say that you have at the end of this month appealing against the DWP decision not to sign you up for UC. Yet here you are waxing lyrical about your experiences on UC.

 

If you feel like explaining this please do so on your own thread, out of respect for the flow of someone else's thread.

 

[moodygirl86]

Thanks for taking the time to reply LW, that's reassuring!

[Nystagmite]

I'm sure someone asked about whether they have to give their login details to their adviser very recently. When you sign up, it should say, (as it does on every single website you sign up with) not to give your login details to anyone.

[moodygirl86]

Hiya Nystagmite.

 

That's right, it does. The request was made in a confirmation email by the Capita employee who phoned me on Thursday night to arrange the meeting. It looked like a standard one they send everyone, so I assume anyone arranging a UC claim is asked to provide these. What a cheek! I'll see what happens tomorrow, and at least I know I'm legally in the right on this. I think it's disgusting that they are relying on and exploiting people's lack of knowledge about the system. The good news is that since the economy tanked in 2008, most of the staff in my JCP have come to know me as I've been on and off the dole and most recognise that I genuinely look for work if unemployed and don't give me any ****. It's just they've arranged the meeting with someone I haven't met before (I don't recognise the name) and I have no way of knowing if she'll be reasonable or not, but hey. No good me assuming the worst before I've even spoken to her, so I'll trust her unless she gives me a reason not to. And I've been keeping a detailed log from day one of the claim even before I've been given any DWP booklets, so she will hopefully see that I'm quite low-maintenance and just take my ID and arrange the appointments without a quibble.

[moodygirl86]

UPDATE: Ha ha. Just got back home from the "interrogation". Think my new coach is going to be a bit of nice, bit of nasty depending on her mood. I shall have to see...

 

My appointment was 09:05 so I made sure to arrive early. The building was still closed when I got there and this person was running late so one of her colleagues (who I've met before and was always OK with me) took all my ID and explained everything. When the woman I was meant to see arrived, she drafted up my Claimant Commitment and we discussed all my work experience, then she asked me to email her my CV. Which was fine, no problem there. She then arranged my next two meetings with her and explained that UC doesn't really do "signing on" in the old style way, you just need to attend whatever appointments they ask you to. OK so far but here's where things got slightly heated:

 

She asked if I had a Universal Jobsmatch account, which I confirmed I do. As Theronstar warned me would happen, she said I would need to give her access. I politely explained that I did not wish to give access, but she could type in my email address into her system, which would confirm I had an account, and that I would always keep a written record of all employers I had contacted.

HER: "Why wouldn't you want to give me access?"

ME: "I didn't know I had to give a reason, to be honest. It's optional and I've chosen not to."

HER: "Well I'm ASKING for a reason! Why not?"

ME: "Because it's not secure for keeping your jobsearch on there. I don't want to risk a sanction if it crashed and lost all my jobsearch records, so I'm sticking with a paper record."

HER: "Well how can I send you vacancies if you don't allow me access?"

ME: "You can email them to me, that's what K (my old JSA advisor) used to do."

HER: "Well I'M not K! MY name is T!"

ME: "I know your name is T. That doesn't preclude you from sending emails now, does it? Does the system filter for T names or something?"

HER (perhaps wisely ignoring my sarcasm): "It will make more work for me, and so will sifting through your paper records."

ME: "Well not to be rude, but that's not really my issue. Your Toolkit specifically says in Chapter 3 that claimants cannot be mandated to give access, and that we can show our jobsearch records in whatever format we choose."

HER: "Well you're right, it's not mandatory, but I still don't understand why...ANYWAY! (loud sigh). Moving on..." She rolled her eyes as though I was the thickest person she had ever met, but if she thinks she can shame me into doing what she wants, it won't work. I was actually struggling to keep a straight face and not giggle, as she was so petulant. She then put me on a four-day group session at JCP for next week and threatened me with Seetec, so I think I'm being punished for that one. Sadly for her though, I know the bloke who runs the JCP sessions and he's always really nice so I don't actually mind. All I have to do is turn up, listen to what he says (just explaining the rules) and chat with some of the other claimants, hopefully passing on this valuable knowledge if the opportunity arises.

 

After that though, we moved on to discussing everything else, and she asked me what sort of work I want to do, what I'd done before, how I was going to find work. I explained all the things I'd been doing, and showed her my written record of what I had done so far. She did look grudgingly impressed and admitted, "You won't be unemployed for very long, then." She asked how long I spent jobsearching a day, and I explained that it took me a couple of hours to tailor every CV to each specific employer, so at least six hours, sometimes seven or eight.

 

I'll see what happens with her. If she gets arsey again I'll just ask for another coach. Preferably K as he specifically said last time that he knew he could trust me to do an appropriate amount of jobsearch with minimal supervision.

Edited January 11, 2016 by moodygirl86

[Mr.P]

HER: "It will make more work for me, and so will sifting through your paper records."[/font]

 

As a tax payer, I expect her to be kept busy rather than spending the working day sitting idly twiddling her thumbs. If the work isn't there, then perhaps management can look at reducing staffing levels.

[moodygirl86]

Exactly Mr P. If you or I got let go from a job for not being productive enough, that could affect our entitlement to benefits if we needed them. Yet she's admitting she can't be arsed to do her job? The hypocrisy burns. Funnily enough, she's not the first person in that JCP who I've heard complaining about having to do work while she's, you know, at work.

 

Just this morning while waiting outside, the security guard inside was ****ing about on his mobile phone and didn't unlock the doors for us until 09:02. If I'd ended up not being seen due to lateness, I would have blamed him. One of the other claimants snapped him on his own phone and said he's going to report him to the security company, so I hope he gets spoken to. I'm not generally a fan of grassing people up for petty things like mobile use at work, but if it affects others, he needs to save it for his own time.

[theronstar]

Well done OP, I was wondering what would happen with you!

 

I have always tended to treat Jobcentre staff as Gods and do whatever they tell me to do. Yet you held your own and it worked

 

It's definitely food for thought!

[moodygirl86]

Thanks Theronstar.

 

I saw her again yesterday as she's booked me onto this Seetec course for the next couple of weeks. It actually doesn't sound too bad - you get a guaranteed interview with RBS at the end of it, so not the punishment she was making it sound. She was lovely yesterday, saying I was obviously very proactive and it wouldn't be long before I found something; and she didn't even moan when I explained that I'd still be looking for work until RBS actually had interviewed me and made a definitive offer of employment. She even cancelled one of our meetings she had booked! I reckon she knows she's misjudged me and I won't get any more trouble.

[Nystagmite]

Hope all goes well

[moodygirl86]

Cheers Nystagmite, I'm sure it will! Even if I don't get that particular role, I've never been out of work for too long anyway so I feel fairly confident something will change soon.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Well done again Moodygirl. You have shown by your example, and described succinctly, that using UJM and providing DWP with access to your account on it is not mandatory, even under UC.

With UC being a recent innovation details of the intricacies and hurdles involved in it, and how to overcome them, are sparse. This makes your contribution here all the more invaluable and instructive as advice and guidance for others based on example and experience. Your account of the interview was particularly instructive in that it shows the dearth of solid grounds those coaches have to stand on when faced with determined opposition.

I have one or two questions that you may be able to clarify for me;

You said that the request to take your login details with you to the meeting that was arranged for you to sign up to UC was made by a Capita employee (Post # 15). Does this mean that Capita staff arrange the meetings and they are held at Jobcentre by Jopcentre Plus staff?

A summary of the process you had to go through to sign on, different contacts, instructions, timescales etc, may be instructive to others.

You said that the 'coach' interviewing you asked you to email to her a copy of your CV (Post # 16). Was this to a JCP email address or to her personal email address?

Either way, the same privacy and data protection laws govern the requesting and holding of CVs as govern the requesting and holding and access to UJM account details, and they can be withheld for the same reasons.

Acceding to the one request and not the other may be regarded as being selective in what you choose to disclose for other reasons than privacy and data protection when the same the risks you claim to be protecting yourself against apply equally to both. Just a point to bear in mind, fortunately your 'coach' does not appear to have picked up on the anomaly, yet.

You said that ".....she drafted up my Claimant Commitment and we discussed all my work experience, then she asked me to email her my CV....." (Post # 16). Was the Claimant Commitment drawn up before, during or after discussions of your work experience and personal circumstances and requirements?

Those questions are for clarification only. Your answers will not detract from the good job you did of succeeding in getting your own way on what you went for. Well done again and I wish both yourself and your new best friend a convivial association.

[moodygirl86]

Hey Workaholic! I'll try and answer your questions as best I can:

 

Yes, it seems that under the UC system, you submit your claim online and Capita staff then ring you to arrange the meeting. This should be done within two working days of the claim being made.

 

They told me to take a copy of my CV to the meeting, that's when she asked me to email it to her JCP email address. I've been asked to do this every time I've claimed in the last few years, and this also happened under JSA. That's not something that worries me personally, though I can see why many people wouldn't be happy to entrust a coach with this info! She said we would review it on next attendance. I don't know when that will be, but the copy I sent her was a JCP approved, scaled down version that one of her colleagues did a few years back - she can have that one and tie herself in knots working out how to tamper with it more than it's been and I do my own jobhunting with my own version that I like better and sells me better. Method to my madness.

 

She just asked all the questions while drafting it up, so I don't think she was trying to trick me into agreeing to anything that could bite me later. It was only when the UJM access came up in conversation that things started getting uncomfortable! I don't think she's malicious in that sense (though I could be wrong); she's just not used to being challenged, especially not by those she sees as being of lower social status - ie, unemployed. But that's when I showed her the examples of how I'd record my jobsearch, which was when she acknowledged I had done a lot and it wouldn't be long before I got some work.

[Lapsed Workaholic]

Thank you for your comprehensive and prompt response. It will be of immense help to claimants who might be going through the process to know what to expect and how to handle it.