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Inconvenience and trouble caused by AA


Prash
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Just to join you. Here is my incident

Hi I called the AA as there was smoke coming from the engine (Coming from a non-mechanical background, I used the word engine, because to me everything under the car bonnet is the engine, hence I used the word engine.) and it was making noise. AA patrol attended my vehicle promptly on my driveway and assessed the vehicle.

 

AA patrol switched on the car engine and said that the alternator needed to be replaced, which was all fine up to this point and I expected him to tow my car to the garage; however, he decided to remove the alternator belt with a metal rod. He asked me to switch on the car while holding the metal rod, at which point the force from the engine physically moved his hand and engine. He kept on repeating same thing 2 to 3 times. (asked me to switching on and off the engine). At this point car almost stopped responding to start button and lost all electric power supply including lights on dashboard.

 

He ended up taking the belt off forcefully with metal rod and said the car should now start and you can drive; AA patrol said he would follow me to the garage. Unfortunately, the car never got started and he mentioned that there could be battery problem as it is not connect to alternator. He tried a couple of different ways to start the car, using two different batteries and he continued to try different ways of getting it working again.

 

The car never got started; after all unsuccessful attempts; he informed me that car wouldn’t start and it needed towing to the garage. We dropped the car at the garage. Garage phoned me and said even after changing the belt and alternator on the car, the car would not start. The mechanic told me the engine is dead and nothing can be done about this.

I was very concerned that a relatively minor repair to the alternator has ended up in such a major problem to the whole car.

 

Complaint AA they got back to me and said

1) These symptoms suggest there was a more significant fault with your engine than just a failed alternator

2) It does appear our patrol did misdiagnose the underlying fault at the roadside

3) Running your engine without the auxiliary belt would not cause your engine to seize

 

I am not a mechanic, but logically I think he should have dropped the car to the garage, because there is no other way to repair the car on the spot and I never expected him to change alternator on my driveway either! The car should have gone straight to the garage with this fault, and to try and fix this at the roadside appears irresponsible in my opinion.

 

Car was checked by garage just before AA patrol and gave me quotation to repair it and it was just alternator and break pad! So I know there was no problem with the engine.

 

AA never misdiagnosed the problem in fact he diagnosed correctly; he also mentioned that “I have never seen such a clean engine without any leak” as soon as he finished his brief check.

 

In last comments they mentioned that running the engine without the auxiliary belt would not cause the engine to seize; there is no issue with running the engine without the auxiliary belt, as the engine never switched on after he used force to damage the engine and he knows that himself after changing all different batteries!

 

I had to tow my car back from garage and my car is now not working and lying on my driveway. The inconvenience and trouble caused by your unprofessional and unskilled patrol has made my life dreadful.

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Hello and Welcome Prash,

 

I have started a new thread for you.

 

Regards,

 

Scott.

Any advice I give is honest and in good faith.:)

If in doubt, you should seek the opinion of a Qualified Professional.

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Help keep it up and active, helping people like you.

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you are right and i understand driving car without belt would not cause damage but never got to a stage where i can drive my car ; engine stopped responding while he was trying to remove belt with metal rod and it never switched on after that. never got opportunity to drive my car without belt!

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So what EXACTLY is the fault with your engine ?. It appears to me ( as a qualified mechanic ), that the alternator was possibly burnt out and that the AA Patrol was attempting to remove the drive belt so that you could drive the car to the garage. Obviously, because the alternator was faulty, the battery would be flat. The Patrol has fitted another battery in order for you to start the car. The fact that the car would not start implies another fault. Why didn't the garage try and start your car BEFORE fitting a new alternator and drive belt ?. I think that you are unfairly blaming the AA, and need to question your garage with regard to THEIR actions in relation to your car.

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May be way off the mark hear but you describe the issue as you had been told you needed a new alternator, could not get it done straight away so continued using the car. A few days later you turn the car on and smoke starts coming from under the bonnet from the region of the of the alternstor. AA come out and attempt to remove the belt so you can start the car but after removing the belt the car will not start.

 

I am assuming therefore that the new symptom is the engine turns over but does not fire up. If this is the case I would almost be willing to put money on the following. Your alternator was failing and finally seized whilst the engine was running causing the belt to start slipping on the alternator pulley (cause of smoke) the belt then stuck to the pulley causing the belt to jam the crank pulley whilst the engine was running so bye bye cambelt amd valves.

 

As for changing an alternator on the driveway, can be done and is in fact one of the easiest things to do on a modern car, subject to the car being in a good well maintained condition it should take about 10 minutes tops to change out an alternator. 1 multiplug and 2-3 bolts to undo new one in refit belt plug in multiplug and off you go.

 

First thing I would ask the garage to do is check the cambelt and timing as I suspect you will find the timing is now off. unfortunately unless you are exceptionally lucky (or own a non interference engine like the old fiat punto) the belt also causes the valves in the cylinder head to hit the pistons requiring a major rebuild of the engine £600 plus depending on the model.

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Angrycrow, if the alternator drive belt stuck to the crank pulley, the torque on the pulley would snap the drive belt. The only way that the timing belt could be affected, is when the alternator drive belt is shredded and parts of the belt get behind the crank pulley. Regarding an alternator replacement, yes on some cars it's quite straight forward, but on others it can take about an hour and a half to do. These are still capable of being done, but would you want to do it in the rain or cold on your driveway ?. Remember, the AA is emergency breakdown assistance, not a mobile repair mechanic service. The AA Patrol did what he could under the circumstances. Let's wait and see what the OP tells us what's exactly wrong with his engine. By the way, the Fiat Punto engine is an interference engine and it will bend the valves if the timing belt fails, I've done one very recently. Most engines are interference nowadays, and you'd have to go back to a Ford Sierra or Vauxhall Cavalier for examples of a 'safe' engine.

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Angrycrow,

I should have got it repaired but I price difference between two garages was around £140(I phoned few other garage as soon as I got quotation from first garage to get best price).

 

Distance from my home to first garage less than 600 yards (where I got first quotation) and distance to other where I intended to repair my car was 6.5 miles.

 

So Phoned AA and mentioned all symptoms; he agreed that problem with alternator. I also asked him if it is safe to drive but he decided to other things as I mentioned previously.

 

I drove my car less 600 yards after first quotation and never drove after.

 

This is what he did; he put the metal rod between the belt and pulley and asked me to switch on the car. I switched on the car but he couldn't handle the force from the engine and the metal rod slipped (at this point car engine is still on).

Then he asked me to switch off the engine.

 

He repeated exactly the same thing again (at this point car engine is on and he asked me to switch it off). The third time he asked me and the engine switched on and ran for a while, then stopped suddenly and I think the metal road stuck somewhere in between. The belt is still there at this point, but the engine stopped responding after this. Somehow, he managed to get the belt out in one piece.

 

No, he didn’t use any of this thing you mentioned (1 multiplug and 2-3 bolts to undo new one in refit belt plug in multiplug and off you go), just one metal road!!!!! And he spent at least 50-60 minutes to take the belt off.

Garage replied with comments

“This car was towed into the garage as a non runner, with a broken alternator and blown main power fuse.

 

When fitting the alternator belt we discovered that the bottom crank bolt was loose. We checked the timing belt was intact and tightened the bolt. there was no key way on the pulley.

 

We then tried turning the engine by hand and found that it was locked solid.

 

Suspect internal engine damage”

 

You are right; I was driving a very economical car Renault Megan 1.5 Diesel; not sure what to expect now.I could have checked with another garage but the journey each way will cost me £50 to have the car towed, so £100 in total to take it to any garage if it cannot be fixed there.

 

I expected AA patrol to come and have a look at my car but they never bothered.

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This is all very strange !. Why did the garage tighten the crank pulley bolt without first fitting a new woodruff key - that doesn't make sense. Secondly, they say that the timing belt was o/k. Therefore the AA Patrol could not have damaged this. Not quite sure what the Patrol was doing in your engine, but it would have been easier to just cut the alternator drive belt with a Stanley knife as it almost certainly needed a new belt anyway. Can't understand how the engine was running one minute, and was then locked solid the next. More to this than meets the eye, and I still think that you're blaming the AA man ( unfairly ) until it is established EXACTLY what the fault is with the engine. The main fuse would blow if you tried to start the engine if it was seized ( caused by excessive Amp draw by the starter motor ).

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PS : I think you're being a little harsh when you say that the car should have been repaired by " a professional mechanic ", as most of the AA Patrols are highly qualified and have usually come from main dealerships. I've been in the motor trade for over 40 years, so I've met quite a lot of them. Some of them I would employ tomorrow without question.

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Alternators work on a three phase principal. Sometimes, the electrical windings in one phase fails and you will get a smell of burning and smoke from the alternator. One solution is to cut the drive belt so that the alternator is not rotating. You can then drive the car a short distance ( this depends on the state of charge of your battery ). As your's was flat, the AA Patrol fitted a fully charged replacement. You said that your car is a Renault Megane 1500 diesel ?. Despite what angrycrow would have you believe, the removal and replacement time for an alternator on this vehicle ( according to Autodata ) is 2 hours and 10 minutes.

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Thanks for your reply and research. If this is how you remove belt! He didn't do any of these!

 

please have a look at few youtube video; i cant post it here because of this msg (to be able to post links or images your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 5 posts.)

 

Key word i used; changes alternator belt

 

As you mentioned as per Auto date it is 2 hours and 10 minutes to REMOVE and REPLACE the alternator and I also agree with Angrycrow, it may be little quicker; depend how confident and experienced you are( as seen on videos). Now, I don’t know how to calculate time to just to REMOVE BELT ONLY NOT ALTERNATOR!

 

After watching at all these expert videos, I am pretty sure he never followed any of these steps. On top of that, all these people took belt off while engine is off but he asked me to switch on the engine!!!!

 

This is what you call experience expert advice as you mentioned just cut the belt very simple; I could have done it for him.

 

In regards to changing alternator by garage; because this is what AA told/instructed garage when we dropped the car at garage!

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Angrycrow' date=' if the alternator drive belt stuck to the crank pulley, the torque on the pulley would snap the drive belt. The only way that the timing belt could be affected, is when the alternator drive belt is shredded and parts of the belt get behind the crank pulley. Regarding an alternator replacement, yes on some cars it's quite straight forward, but on others it can take about an hour and a half to do. These are still capable of being done, but would you want to do it in the rain or cold on your driveway ?. Remember, the AA is emergency breakdown assistance, not a mobile repair mechanic service. The AA Patrol did what he could under the circumstances. Let's wait and see what the OP tells us what's exactly wrong with his engine. By the way, the Fiat Punto engine is an interference engine and it will bend the valves if the timing belt fails, I've done one very recently. Most engines are interference nowadays, and you'd have to go back to a Ford Sierra or Vauxhall Cavalier for examples of a 'safe' engine.[/quote']

 

Not wishing to pick a fight as that will not help the OP but the Fiat punto 1.2 8v engine used until at least 2006 is a non interference engine and does not normally damage the values if the cambelt lets go. I accept the 1.2 16v engines are interference and do damage valves if the cambelt fails.

 

I also note that you suggest the garage should have replaced the woodruff key on the Renualt 1.5 dci engine. These engines do not have a woodruff key which is why the torque of the crank bolt is so critical. My money is still on the crank pulley having slipped at some point causing the timing to go but we will wait for the OP to confirm what the garage diagnose about the seized engine.

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I accept what you say about the crank not having a Woodruff key, I've never done one, but I had it in the back of my mind that it may be the cam pulleys that didn't have one. I'm still baffled though, why a garage would fit a new alternator and then tell the owner to tow the car away. They should have made sure that the car was running before fitting the alternator.

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Renault megan 1.5 diesel he said

 

 

I see it now, must be there half a dozen times. peep.gif

 

 

It is correct about the woodruff key, there is a keyway in the crankshaft but typical of French cars, it would cost 2p to make a keyway in the crankshaft pulley so they declined.

 

 

First thing me thinks is how did the crankshaft pulley bolt become lose and for how long has it been that way. Removing the auxiliary drive belt in the manner described won't have had any affect on the crankshaft pulley.

 

 

Now, I don’t know how to calculate time to just to REMOVE BELT ONLY NOT ALTERNATOR!

Remove and Install, 30 minutes.

 

 

I'm not seeing any connection with what the AA did and the engine seizing.

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