JohnBrown4x4 ** Resolved **

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

I recently purchased a 1972 series 3 Landrover from Classic Land Rovers and 4x4s - John Brown 4x4 Ltd

 

 

- John Brown 4x4

 

 

I paid strong money £7500 plus deliver because I believed I was buying a good LR from a professional garage.

 

 

Looked great on their website and the blurb sounded good.

I did not go to view it ( lack of time ) silly me.

 

This was the description,

For sale, Land Rover® Series 3 in Light Pastel Green (1972)

 

MOT until April 2015 and tax exempt. Diesel 2286cc.

 

This vehicle has been in the same ownership for 10 years, and was well loved.

It has a comprehensive history file, with old MOTs going back 20 years,

which suggest that the 33,000 miles is genuine..

 

 

..in 1995 the mileage was 14,000, and the history shows light use year on year..

..and this makes sense because the diesel engine sounds incredibly fit, and starts with consumate ease.

In fact, this lovely Series 3 was driven up from Buckinghamshire!

 

In addition to being tax exempt and having low miles on the clock, there are lots more goodies besides

- it has parabolic springs and procomp shocks, free wheeling hubs, overdrive, and a superb (working) Capstan winch.

...this is a real plus, as they are known to be incredibly robust and strong, as they run directly off the engine.

They are also sought after and therefore valuable!

 

Finished in Light Pastel Green, the bodywork, as can be seen in the photos, is good.

The interior is fitted with rear twin bench seats, and the side windows make it ideal for all the family.

 

This is a pretty, vintage Land Rover®, benefitting from tax exemption, low mileage, and coupled with that winch, plus extras as listed, makes it quite desirable.

 

When the LR arrived I could see it was not originally green it was blue as blue paint could still be scene in places ;-(

 

I looked over the MOT's and noticed 4 years of MOT"S

the mileage had not changed this raised suspicions.

 

 

I tracked down the previous previous owner to ask about the lack of milage and MOT's

he confirmed the millage was about 20k out as the speedo had not worked for a number of years.

 

 

My issue is I am not a trader and have worked out the mileage was not correct.

 

 

Johnbrown4x4 stated "with old MOTs going back 20 years, which suggest that the 33,000 miles is genuine" Clearly this is not the case.

 

I decided to take the LR to a local LR no-nonsense garage and get them to look it over for me. Please watch this video. http://youtu.be/33lqoV8bAaA

 

I think the video is rather damming given that johnbrown4x4 state that Finally, our in house inspection is far more thorough than an MOT,

and we often undertake repairs to vehicles which have been deemed satisfactory by VOSA.

 

 

As an example, just this week a vehicle came into the unit, having covered 4 miles since the last MOT.

Our inspection diagnosed two loose wheel bearings, a loose swivel housing, and more worryingly, a badly worn ball joint,

which seriously affected the safety of the steering.

 

 

Because we are experts, we know where to look for problems, and also have the ability to solve them.

In buying from us, you have the added peace of mind that not only has the vehicle had a VOSA inspection,

it's had a John Brown 4x4 inspection”

 

What a lot of rubbish.

 

The LR was originally advertised for £7950 big money I offered them £7250 which they accepted

but sent me this email "Trade sale (£800 discount on asking price) with no warranty implied or given"

 

I am not a trader and understand that there was no warrantee however I do not think that the LR is fit for purpose given what the specialist has told me.

 

I have asked JohnBrown4X4 for a refund and this is the response to my complaint Thank you for your call.

 

The vehicle was sold with a current MOT until April 2015.

The winch works perfectly. T

he mileage was only suggested to be genuine as we did not have a complete history on it.

 

It's impossible to gauge the time left on a clutch without removing the gearbox.

There is not a Landrover in the land that doesn't leak oil from somewhere.

There's bound to be improvements that can be made to an unrestored vehicle that's over 40 years old.

 

The valuation of your garage is ridiculous.

We are consulted nationally on setting valuations in National magazines.

The vehicle was supplied under your direction as a trade sale at a trade price with no warranty implied or given.

Thanks

 

What steps next.

I will be getting an AA/ RAC report then submitting this with an application to the small claims court.

I shall make sure I post this in as many places as possible so to warn others.

 

Oddly under there sold section the LR I have been sold has been removed.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

I paid deposit by bank card the balance by bank transfer. I have spoken to the CAB today who have confirmed I am entitled to a refund. I emailed them this and have had no response. I will send it tomorrow by registered post.

19 December 2014

 

Dear JohnBrown4x4,

 

The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013

 

10/12/14 I ordered the following: 1972 Landrover SWB TWT563L.

 

I received the goods on 16/12/14.

 

Under the above Regulations, I would like to cancel the order and ask you to provide a full refund within 14 days.

 

Further more

Under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended) goods you supply must be of satisfactory quality, be fit for purpose and match their description.

As there was a problem with the goods when I bought them, I request that you provide a full refund.

 

Please see the video link in support of my claim http://youtu.be/33lqoV8bAaA

 

Simply by writing on the invoice that this is a trade sale does not however apply as I am not a trader. Your invoice also failed to state that I have 14 days to cancel the order please see the following government link. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/310044/bis-13-1368-consumer-contracts-information-cancellation-and-additional-payments-regulations-guidance.pdf

 

http://www.norfolk.gov.uk/view/NCC094699

 

Please contact me within 14 days to arrange collection/return of the goods.

 

I hope this clarifies matters.

 

Please note that the matter has been passed on to the CAB who have referred it to trading standards.

 

 

 

Yours sincerely,

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

Lets start by clarifying a few points.

 

1. I called JohnBrown4x4 to discuss the issues with the LR. The response I received was......thank you for your call.

The vehicle was sold with a current MOT until April 2015.

The winch works perfectly. The mileage was only suggested to be genuine as we did not have a complete history on it.

It's impossible to gauge the time left on a clutch without removing the gearbox. There is not a Landrover in the land that doesn't leak oil from somewhere. There's bound to be improvements that can be made to an unrestored vehicle that's over 40 years old.

The valuation of your garage is ridiculous. We are consulted nationally on setting valuations in National magazines.

The vehicle was supplied under your direction as a trade sale at a trade price with no warranty implied or given.

Thanks

 

How do they expect me to respond to this..... yes ok ill except you ripping me off and fobbing me off with the it was a trade sale. A trade sale can only be made to a trader I am not a trader.

 

I then emailed to Johnbrown4x4 as they had set the tone in the previous email. Dear Sir,

 

Thank you for your email the contents of which are noted. Please see the attached video link with an explanation of issues with this landrover I feel that you have misrepresented the condition of the landrover and its milage.

You website makes a number of claims in relation to the service that you offer.

 

"With old MOTs going back 20 years, which suggest that the 33,000 miles is genuine” It took me less than a day to establish that the millage is not genuine. You are a professional company 4 years MOT’s with no change in milage is a good indicator that there was a problem. I contacted the owner who confirmed that the milage is not correct as the speedo was broken for a number of years. You have website information is misleading”

 

You state "(working) Capstan winch” Please see the video. http://youtu.be/33lqoV8bAaA

 

You state "Finished in Light Pastel Green” the advert makes no mention that the colour is or was blue. They is still blue paint work in a number of places on the LR thus it is not finished in “Green” your advert should state the colour has changed. Thus description led me to believe that it was originally green not blue.

 

Your website states "Many customers (over 95%) elect to buy their Land Rover® unseen, safe in the knowledge that the company makes fair appraisals of each vehicle” This LR despite having a current MOT is not safe to be used on the road please see video in relation to MOT safety issues.

 

Your website states "All our vehicles are supplied with a good length MOT, in which we put our faith” Your faith in this cars MOT is not what one would expect from a professional garage.

 

Your website states "Secondly, we are proud of our good reputation, and are more concerned that we sell vehicles that are in the best possible condition for age, rather than focusing on profit margins. When vehicles come in with any marginal running issues we always take the cautious line - we rarely just change the points - preferring to fit a complete distributor.” again this car has left your work shop with serious issues.

 

Your website states "Finally, our in house inspection is far more thorough than an MOT, and we often undertake repairs to vehicles which have been deemed satisfactory by VOSA. As an example, just this week a vehicle came into the unit, having covered 4 miles since the last MOT. Our inspection diagnosed two loose wheel bearings, a loose swivel housing, and more worryingly, a badly worn ball joint, which seriously affected the safety of the steering. Because we are experts, we know where to look for problems, and also have the ability to solve them. In buying from us, you have the added peace of mind that not only has the vehicle had a VOSA inspection, it's had a John Brown 4x4 inspection” Agin please see the video. http://youtu.be/33lqoV8bAaA

 

Moving forward. I will have the landrover inspected by the RAC or AA and the independent garage. With the two reports I will then take your company to the small claims court. I understand you will try to argue that no warrantee is given. However this is distance selling and the LR is not fit for purpose and certainly does not live up to the claims made on your website.

 

I will also be contacting trading standards. The BBC watchdog and will also email the BBC to contact Hugh Fearnley Whittinsall.

 

I will also join and post my comments on every landrover forum and FaceBook page. I will professional video all the issues with the landrover (the video I did now was with a phone) and attach to web pages forums and FaceBook. I will insure that the video I make and the comments I make are all SEO optimised so that any one searching http://www.johnbrown4x4.com will find my feedback.

 

I emailed you before delivery. Clearly the answer you gave was not true.

Hi xxxx,

 

Can you please confirm that the Land rover has been serviced as not wanting any issues. What is the rust situation with the car Ben indicated that is pretty much rust free.

 

Regards

 

xxxx

Hi xxxx

The vehicle has been through our in house checking schedule which checks the oils , systems etc. We always aim to present our vehicles in the best condition possible. Rust wise we would say the vehicle is in good order. The underside has been protected as you requested.

Kind regards

Lisa

 

I request a full refund as as the Landrover you have sold me is not what I had expected to be delivered.

 

Should I receive a full refund I will drop the matter on not post my comments on any forums. Reputations can very easily be destroyed.

 

I bought this LR because I wrongly believed what was written on your website.

 

I look forward to your response today. Should I have no response I will be starting action against your company immediately.

 

Regards

 

The comments made on the video are made by an MOT tester and a chap who has been restoring LR for over 20 years.

 

The facts are I bought a LR that I am not happy with due to the issues raised I contacted JohnBrown4x4 to discuss the issues and assert my consumer rights for them to try and fob me of. It would seem that I am not the only person JohnBrown4x4 have ripped of I found a further two complaints on google.

 

[removed]

Edited December 20, 2014 by dx100uk
external site links cannot be carried without permission

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

I'm sorry, but I am with John R Brown on this one.

 

 

You do not buy a car (or anything) and then inspect it. You can't expect a 40 year old car to be perfect.

 

This is taken from JohnBrown4x4 website Many customers (over 95%) elect to buy their Land Rover® unseen, safe in the knowledge that the company makes fair appraisals of each vehicle.

 

 

Accepting it as Trade to get a substantial discount and then changing your mind isn't on.

 

I did not accept it as a trade purchase. Where is the email evidence to say I except this as a trade purchase ? There is none.No one buys a car with out negotiating on the price.

 

 

Is the mechanic in the vid authorised to wear a Land Rover logo on his overalls ? Is it a Land Rover franchise or Dealer ?

What has that got to do with the post ?

 

+1 to what conniff said... ANY 40yo vehicle will have faults.

 

This is taken from JohnBrown4x4 website Many customers (over 95%) elect to buy their Land Rover® unseen, safe in the knowledge that the company makes fair appraisals of each vehicle.

 

The only problem John Brown have is that you can't actually sell a car on 'trade' terms to a member of the public. Unless the invoice states 'sold for breaking / scrap purposes only' or something similar then they could have a problem there.

 

 

However IF they have an email from the buyer accepting that it is sold to him on a trade basis that will help.

 

They do not have any email from me excepting those terms. They emailed me a invoice with trade written on it however this does not apply as I am not a motor trader.

 

 

But... buying a 40yo car unseen is never going to have a happy ending.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

I'm sorry, but I am with John R Brown on this one.

 

 

You do not buy a car (or anything) and then inspect it. You can't expect a 40 year old car to be perfect.

 

 

Accepting it as Trade to get a substantial discount and then changing your mind isn't on.

 

 

Is the mechanic in the vid authorised to wear a Land Rover logo on his overalls ? Is it a Land Rover franchise or Dealer ?

 

+1 to what conniff said... ANY 40yo vehicle will have faults.

 

 

The only problem John Brown have is that you can't actually sell a car on 'trade' terms to a member of the public. Unless the invoice states 'sold for breaking / scrap purposes only' or something similar then they could have a problem there.

 

 

However IF they have an email from the buyer accepting that it is sold to him on a trade basis that will help.

 

 

But... buying a 40yo car unseen is never going to have a happy ending.

 

+1

 

I agree with you totally, as the response was very clear & concise!

 

I also agree with the other CAGgers regarding buying a 40 year old vehicle.

 

I would of thought at that age, it would have its quirks & issues, that would need seeing too along with TLC!

 

Sure a car of this age would have quirks how ever it was delivered in an un roadworthy state that is the issue.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

Thank you for your post for your information

 

 

JohnBrown4x4 are aware of the garage I made that information public.

 

 

In fact in their response it even mentions the garage in my original post

 

 

I also state I will be getting the RAC to look at the LR as there integrity can not be questioned.

 

I have not made any slanderous comments my comments are fact.

 

 

The fact is that the description given does not match the LR.

 

As for not going to see the LR the dealers own website states most of our customers buy from us unseen !

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

It was not funny in the least

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

I did read what you said, after you have had this super specialist look at it, you are now going to get the RAC or AA. So that means you have no confidence in your movie star.

So you don't believe what you were told by your specialist, his exam has no integrity.

 

If thats what you want to think so be it.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

Some of you might have read my recent post in my experiences buying a LR from Johnbrown4x4 they state that in there professional opinion the LR is road worthy. It would seem that they don't know a lot as today it has failed an MOT on a number of issues. So much for there very strict inspection before the LR was sent out. Please see the following video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpCAEhjaM4U&feature=youtu.be

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

What a load of bulls testicles this video is. The OP really has a gripe here and shows himself up as a "merchant banker" extraordinaire as does his MOT testing station. Total and utter codswallop. The only thing that may be valid is the condition of the bulkhead around the pedal box. The spring hanger corrosion as is all corrosion a matter of opinion. Wipers not clearing ...well at the last test they might have done.

If I were the OP I'd seriously be considering getting insurance against slander now. I do hope John Browns hit back.

He bought it with a valid MOT let alone not going or getting someone to go and see it on his behalf. What a ******. Plus he has not taken into account the huge discount he got.

 

 

 

 

What eventually this will hinge on is if JB's can supply a copy of the alleged e mail that he accepted it as a trade deal. If they can then it's game over for the OP but if not as the OP claims then it's game on!

 

 

Still no mention of the supposed specialist though surprisingly.

 

When you buy a used motor vehicle from a trader, you enter into a legally binding contract. You are entitled to expect that the vehicle is of satisfactory quality, fit for purpose, and as described. An older vehicle with high mileage may not be as good as a newer vehicle with low mileage, but it should still be fit for use on the road and in a condition that reflects its age and price.

 

Traders must not mislead consumers by using phrases such as 'sold as seen' or 'no refunds'. If you buy a used vehicle from a trader online, you have additional rights under the Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013. You do not have the same legal rights if you buy a vehicle from a private seller or from an auction.

 

If the used vehicle is faulty, you have a short time after buying it to reject it for a full refund. You may have other remedies such as repair or replacement. You should write to trader you bought it from, confirm the details of your complaint and the remedy you are seeking and keep copies of all correspondence. As a last resort, you may need to consider taking court action. Bear in mind that used vehicles may have some faults, but they should not be excessive. Fair wear and tear is not considered to be a fault.

 

- Of a satisfactory quality - free from minor defects, safe and durable for a reasonable length of time. When assessing satisfactory quality you should take into account the price you paid for the vehicle, its age, mileage and condition at the time of sale.

 

- Fit for its intended purpose or a purpose that you made known to the trader - fit to be driven on the road.

 

- As described - the vehicle should correspond with any description applied to it. In some circumstances, the trader may be liable for any statement made by the manufacturer of the vehicle.

 

If the vehicle is faulty , you are legally entitled to request one of the following remedies:

 

a full refund

compensation (damages)

repair or replacement

rescission or reduction in price

The 'action to take' section of this leaflet explains more about the circumstances when each remedy applies. You can find more information about these rights in the 'Buying goods - your rights' leaflet.

 

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 prohibits commercial practices that are unfair to consumers. If a trader misleads you or engages in an aggressive commercial practice and you make a decision to purchase a vehicle which you would not otherwise have done, the trader may be in breach of the regulations. For example, a trader may fail to inform you that the vehicle has previously been accident damaged or may claim it is 'sold as seen' to avoid their responsibilities to you. If you have been misled, report it to Citizens Advice consumer service for investigation by trading standards. Guarantees and warranties given or sold by a trader are in addition to the statutory rights you have under the Sale of Goods Act 1979. Please see our 'Guarantees and warranties' leaflet for more information.

 

If you enter a contract because a trader misled you or because the trader used an aggressive commercial practice, the Consumer Protection (Amendment) Regulations 2014 give you rights to redress - the right to unwind the contract, the right to a discount and the right to damages. Please see our 'Misleading and aggressive practices - your right to redress' leaflet for more information.

 

Mileage

If you are buying from a trader, check to see if there is a disclaimer stating that the mileage is not guaranteed and so cannot be relied on. It should be 'bold, precise and compelling' and effectively brought to your attention. If there is no disclaimer, it could be argued that the trader is stating that the mileage is correct and you can rely on it. It then becomes part of the contract and the description of the vehicle.

 

Final the term trade sale..... 13.1 A consumer’s legalrightsunder the SoGA cannot be taken away or restricted, and any attempt by you to do so by using an exclusion clause or similar notice will be void and therefore unenforceable (you will not be able to rely on it in a dispute with a consumer). Using words or statements in sales to consumers such as ‘Sold as seen’, ‘Unroadworthy’, ‘Trade Sale Only’,

‘No Refund’, ‘Spare or Repair’ or

‘Sold as Scrap’, even if the statement ‘this does not affect your statutory rights’ is included.

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20140402142426/http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/676408/oft1241.pdf

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

The matter has now been concluded amicably.

[Sic vis pacem, para bellu]

It has been resolved satisfactorily.