Notice to quit

[nuttybutty]

Hi guys,

 

 

I urgently need some help/advice if at all possible. It's going to turn out to be a long-winded post, so bear with me.

 

 

Basically, I've been in a rented house for the last 23 years, but in early September received a Section 21 (4) (A) - Notice requiring possession of a dwelling-house let under an assured shorthold tenancy ... so a notice to quit. The document states that the landlady gives notice that they require possession by 30 November.

 

 

I started looking for another property and am awaiting confirmation on this matter.

 

 

At the end of October I decided (rightly or wrongly) that I wouldn't pay the full rent for the coming month as I didn't know if I'd still be in this house by 30 November. Instead I paid two weeks up front, and would pay the remainder week-by-week. The rest of the rent has now been paid up to the end of November.

 

 

Got a call from the landlady's office asking why the rent hadn't been paid. Told them I wasn't paying up front and they asked why I was leaving. Told them they should know considering they delivered the S21 and they denied it was a notice to quit. During this conversation I was told that I had signed and returned a bond document which was impossible as no such document was received.

 

 

I have spoken to the housing department at the council and the CAB, who both confirm it is a notice to quit. Despite this, the landlady is ADAMANT it is not and is a legal requirement that every tenant receives this document. She also said that neither the CAB nor council know what they're talking about.

 

 

She is also insistent that I give a month's notice in writing and pay a month's rent, although the CAB say that as she has served notice on me it is not necessary to give her a month's notice or pay a month's rent, if I move before 30 November. Furthermore, the CAB say if I move after the 30th I should only pay for the time I remain - either weekly or fortnightly and that I don't have to give notice, because she has already served notice on me.

 

 

The landlady is saying that if I don't give a month's notice or pay a month's rent she can take me to court, make me bankrupt and can also find me wherever I go.

[mariner51]

LL is correct, you, CAB & Housing are wrong. s21 is not a Notice to Quit only notice to seek Court repo after expiry date, basically LBA.

At this time of year it will prob be Feb/Mar before LL can get such an Order.

If you vacate by 30 Nov your rent & property liability should cease on that date, but courtesy to let LL know and arrange to return keys.

If you stay after 30 Nov, as is your right, you are still required to give due Notice in writing. You may also incur repo hearing costs. £280

[nuttybutty]

So I've been put through the wringer, been given mis-information (by people who should know) and now basically been 'threatened' by being told she'll find me "wherever I go".

 

If she had included a covering letter and the required document that I was supposed to sign, the last two months of stress could have been avoided.

 

I've read post after post on different forums and none said it isn't a notice to quit. So when you get something like this through the door it's no wonder I'm confused.

 

It's strange, though, that if I leave before 30 November I don't have to give a month's notice or pay month's rent. So that contradicts what the high and mighty landlady is saying.

 

Would've thought she would have been more respectful after having rented her property for so long and being told previously I 'was a great tenant'. Now she's turning nasty.

[45002]

Hi guys,

 

 

I urgently need some help/advice if at all possible. It's going to turn out to be a long-winded post, so bear with me.

 

 

Basically, I've been in a rented house for the last 23 years, but in early September received a Section 21 (4) (A) - Notice requiring possession of a dwelling-house let under an assured shorthold tenancy ... so a notice to quit. The document states that the landlady gives notice that they require possession by 30 November.

 

 

I started looking for another property and am awaiting confirmation on this matter.

 

 

At the end of October I decided (rightly or wrongly) that I wouldn't pay the full rent for the coming month as I didn't know if I'd still be in this house by 30 November. Instead I paid two weeks up front, and would pay the remainder week-by-week. The rest of the rent has now been paid up to the end of November.

 

 

Got a call from the landlady's office asking why the rent hadn't been paid. Told them I wasn't paying up front and they asked why I was leaving. Told them they should know considering they delivered the S21 and they denied it was a notice to quit. During this conversation I was told that I had signed and returned a bond document which was impossible as no such document was received.

 

 

I have spoken to the housing department at the council and the CAB, who both confirm it is a notice to quit. Despite this, the landlady is ADAMANT it is not and is a legal requirement that every tenant receives this document. She also said that neither the CAB nor council know what they're talking about.

 

 

She is also insistent that I give a month's notice in writing and pay a month's rent, although the CAB say that as she has served notice on me it is not necessary to give her a month's notice or pay a month's rent, if I move before 30 November. Furthermore, the CAB say if I move after the 30th I should only pay for the time I remain - either weekly or fortnightly and that I don't have to give notice, because she has already served notice on me.

 

 

The landlady is saying that if I don't give a month's notice or pay a month's rent she can take me to court, make me bankrupt and can also find me wherever I go.

 

 

 

Hello nuttybutty

 

When you moved in 1991 approx

 

Was you issued with form s20 notice at the start of the tenancy, telling you have a assured short holder tenancy ?

 

About 3/4 down this page http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...schedules/made

 

is

 

FORM No. 7

Housing Act 1988 section 20 Notice of an Assured Shorthold Tenancy

 

Was one of theses notices served on you when the tenancy 1st started !

 

PS

 

Keep paying your rent....

[Steve__M]

Unless you are offered a new contract, the Section 21 notice places a Sword of Damocles over your head.

 

At any moment the landlord can start eviction proceedings without further notice, and you are at risk of paying costs or having to move out with fewer than two months' notice to avoid a possession claim.

 

It would be reasonably normal for a landlord who wants to continue a tenancy to issue a Section 21 at the same time as requesting that a new contract be signed. But issuing a Section 21 without explanation suggests that something is up.

 

I have never heard it said that it is a "legal requirement" that a Section 21 notice is issued unless LL wants to either issue a new contract or end the existing tenancy.

 

I suggest that if you want to stay that you could either write to them explain the predicament that they have unnecessarily put you through and ask for a new contract. Or you could take them at their word and hope that they don't choose to evict.

[45002]

Unless you are offered a new contract, the Section 21 notice places a Sword of Damocles over your head.

 

At any moment the landlord can start eviction proceedings without further notice, and you are at risk of paying costs or having to move out with fewer than two months' notice to avoid a possession claim.

 

It would be reasonably normal for a landlord who wants to continue a tenancy to issue a Section 21 at the same time as requesting that a new contract be signed. But issuing a Section 21 without explanation suggests that something is up.

 

I have never heard it said that it is a "legal requirement" that a Section 21 notice is issued unless LL wants to either issue a new contract or end the existing tenancy.

 

I suggest that if you want to stay that you could either write to them explain the predicament that they have unnecessarily put you through and ask for a new contract. Or you could take them at their word and hope that they don't choose to evict.

 

 

The s21 will be invalid anyway

 

If form s20 notice was not issued at the start of the tenancy, telling the tenant they have a assured short holder tenancy...

 

Then OP has Assured Tenancy and not a AST http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/private_renting/private_renting_agreements/assured_tenancies and Does not have to move out.....

 

nuttybutty could you please answer post #4 thank you

[nuttybutty]

Struggling to find any S20-related documentation - although I could've packed it away in preparation for moving.

 

The only relevant paperwork I could find is dated more recently - 2008 - and is titled Assured shorthold tenancy agreement.

 

This paragraph on the back of the document is one more reason why the situation is confusing...

 

This agreement is an assured shorthold tenancy (as defined is section 19A blah, blah, blah). The landlady giving a section 21 notice must give at least two months' notice, in writing.

 

One reason why I'm still confused is why have I been given two months notice to 30 November if it's not a notice to quit? Is it any wonder a thickhead like me can't understand any of this legal mumbo jumbo?

[nuttybutty]

Also, the back of the 2008 document states that I can only give a month's notice on rent due date (so 1 December). The landlady, though, told me yesterday that she doesn't know why I don't hand in notice now.

 

Could this be that she's panicking because from mid-December to early January she jets off abroad, so she knows there's no opportunity of finding a new tenant until the New Year and won't receive any rent for that period, hence why she also wants a month's rent? Also, she doesn't know what I could do to the house if my notice runs out while she's away.

[45002]

Hi nuttybutty

 

You said

 

 

 

 

Basically, I've been in a rented house for the last 23 years, but in early September received a Section 21 (4) (A) - Notice requiring possession of a dwelling-house let under an

 

which would make it around 1991 approx you moved in

 

you moved in between 15 January 1989 and 27 February 1997

And

 

your landlord did not give you a notice saying that you have an assured shorthold tenancy.

Then you have a Assured tenancy and you Do not have to move out http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/private_renting/private_renting_agreements/assured_tenancies

 

Your have what is called a secure tenancy/sitting tenant status...

 

Can you remember what your LL gave you if anything when you 1st moved in ?

 

You need to tell shelter and and council hosing dept you moved in 23 years ago and as far as you know No section 20 notice was issued when you moved in 1991.

 

I hope you can understand me and

 

You must keep paying your Rent, please don't stop paying it or your LL will be able to a possession order and bailiffs evict you for rent arrears...

 

 

 

 

.

[nuttybutty]

To be honest I really can't remember what the landlord at the time (he's since handed properties to his daughter) gave me. I moved here in August 1991.

[raydetinu]

but OP signed an AST in 2008? does this not supersede/ cancel the original tenancy ?

was any deposit paid and is it protected?

[45002]

but OP signed an AST in 2008? does this not supersede/ cancel the original tenancy ?

was any deposit paid and is it protected?

 

NO, it's what was signed in 1991 and served in 1991 that matters.

 

There was a case in the court of appeal a while ago when Tenant had Assured tenancy, but LL had got T to sign AST, Court of Appeal ruled in favor of T and signing AST did not invalidate the Assured tenancy...

 

To be honest I really can't remember what the landlord at the time (he's since handed properties to his daughter) gave me. I moved here in August 1991.

 

Your LL has to prove in court that the form below s20 notice was served on you when you 1st moved in 1991.. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2203/schedules/made

 

If they cant s21 is Invalid.

 

 

nuttybutty

 

You must get you rent up to date and keeping paying your rent or risk loosing your home of the past 23 years...

 

And

 

You really do need to seek legal advice from a solicitor specializing in housing law....

Edited November 13, 2014 by 45002
added sentences....spelling..

[citizenB]

Responding to S.O.S - message sent to Lea_HTH.

[raydetinu]

thanks 4502 for clearing that up.

OP may not need a solicitor; OP just needs to set out his position to the LL and see what they do from there.

OP stay where you are and keep up with the rent.

[Lea_HTH]

My help isn't needed - 45002 has it almost spot on (it's a tiny bit more complicated depending on the paperwork that is available to LL - as LL may have got OP to sign to agree to an AST from the AT, in which case the s21 would be valid). More information is needed - and because it involves looking at ALL the paperwork in detail (including original tenancy agreement), OP needs to go to see a housing solicitor.

[45002]

Thanks Lea_HTH

 

I'm still trying to find the Court of Appeal ruling I posted about early on

 

 

There was a case in the court of appeal a while ago when Tenant had Assured tenancy, but LL had got T to sign AST, Court of Appeal ruled in favor of T and signing AST did not invalidate the Assured tenancy...

 

The case was posted a while back by this guy on http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/member.php?14748-Snorkerz on LLz, But he has over 15,000 post and searching is a bit of a struggle