INGEUS - Letter Today and Reply

[essexmat]

Just got my post

 

Letter word for word is:

IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR YOUR NEXT APPOINTMENT

 

This letter contains the details of your next appointment. We look forward to seeing you again and continuing to support you to find the right job.

APPOINTMENT DETAILS HERE

 

It is very important you attend all appointments. If you cannot attend, you must contact us as soon as possible so that arrangements can be made for a new appointment. Out relephone number is: xxxxx

 

Your activities for your next appointment are: To discuss current circumstances

 

(a) Legally do I have to attend or rearrange being on ESA (not had ATOS yet)

(b) Ironically I have a medical appointment that day anyway

© This REALLY is not helping my recovery

(d) No mention of MANDATED

(e) My circumstances (A&D & surgery) are NOTHING to do with them (between me and my health professionals treating me with impending surgery)

(f) Can I email them a response and if so can I quote any legal jargon to help me not attend in the short term whilst I get sorted

 

Basically, my circumstances when on ESA are nothing to do with them - they can offer no help or support and I do not want to discuss anything like this with them. Am I legally obliged to attend or rearrange or not whilst on ESA assessment phase?

 

I want to get something off by email today if possible as well as copy my old JCP adviser in on the email.

 

Many thanks in advance

[Mr.P]

Well, if it lacks the the warning about "your benefits may be affected if you do not attend" along with half a page of drivel, it is a non-compliant JSA invite that is not applicable to you. For a valid ESA invite, the letter must contain the words " forms part of your work-related activity action plan" and make no reference to JSA regulations - I'm guessing the letter contains neither.

 

In addition, as you are on the assessment phase, this "adviser" should not be making any appointments to discuss "current circumstances" as you have made it perfectly clear in the past that this is outside their remit. Perhaps time to send them a wet kipper and instructions on its use.

 

Update: Found a paragraph from the DWP Work Programme guidance that is relevant to your situation: Chapter 5

 

Mandatory participant moves from JSA to ESA

32. Where you are notified that a mandatory JSA participant has ceased their

JSA to claim ESA, they remain attached with you and their participation

requirements should be treated as the same as those of a Voluntary ESA

participant until the outcome of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA)

 

Your participation is purely on a voluntary basis until such time as the WCA has been decided upon, or you return to JSA. Unfortunately, this means the WP provider can continue to send you invites, but you are free to ignore them.

[essexmat]

Thanks Mr P, as I thought. You are right, the letter contains no information about benefit sanctions etc so it seems it is a 'try on' letter if you like. I don't want to say the wrong thing and don't want to babble either so is there a paragraph I can quote without being rude but also making it clear I have no intention of attending?

 

I was thinking along the lines of:

 

Dear XXXX

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxxx

 

As you know I am currently on ESA (Assessment) and due to renew my sick note in the coming 2 weeks. My condition has not changed and I have regular appointments with my healthcare professional team to discuss these issues. In addition to this and without wishing to go in to details I am also due major surgery so am under a consultants care for this. As an ESA claimant I am not mandated to attend WP appointments and at this stage it is not beneficial to my progress as I am not actively seeking work. Should this change post ESA when I move back to JSA (no date) I will endeavour to contact you and enroll back on to the WP with you.

 

INSERT GUIDELINES HERE

 

I would ask at this stage that no further appointments or communications are sent to me whilst I am undergoing healthcare treatment.

 

How does that sound?

[essexmat]

Well, if it lacks the the warning about "your benefits may be affected if you do not attend" along with half a page of drivel, it is a non-compliant JSA invite that is not applicable to you. For a valid ESA invite, the letter must contain the words " forms part of your work-related activity action plan" and make no reference to JSA regulations - I'm guessing the letter contains neither.

 

In addition, as you are on the assessment phase, this "adviser" should not be making any appointments to discuss "current circumstances" as you have made it perfectly clear in the past that this is outside their remit. Perhaps time to send them a wet kipper and instructions on its use.

 

Update: Found a paragraph from the DWP Work Programme guidance that is relevant to your situation: Chapter 5

 

 

 

Your participation is purely on a voluntary basis until such time as the WCA has been decided upon, or you return to JSA. Unfortunately, this means the WP provider can continue to send you invites, but you are free to ignore them.

 

Thanks, just what I needed!

[Mr.P]

Dear XXXX

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxxx

 

I refer you to Chapter 5 of the Work Programme Provider Guidance issued to yourselves by the DWP. In particular, paragraph 32 which can be found on page 6:

 

32. Where you are notified that a mandatory JSA participant has ceased their

JSA to claim ESA, [...] their participation requirements should be treated as

the same as those of a Voluntary ESA participant until the outcome of the

Work Capability Assessment (WCA).

 

My medical condition, treatments, and personal circumstances are matters to be discussed with properly qualified health professionals under direct referral by my GP. As I have yet to undertake a Work Capability Assessment, any engagement with Ingeus is purely on a voluntary basis - If there is anything you do not understand about this statement or the above quoted guidance, please consult your Third Party Contracts Manager at the DWP.

 

I would insist at this stage that no further appointments or communications are sent to me whilst I am awaiting a Work Capability Assessment or start reclaiming Job Seeker's Allowance.

 

Keep it short, no need to mention surgery or any other treatments. Avoid too many big words, and signpost them to authoritative sources.

[essexmat]

Thanks - already sent email off, sort of the same - this is it:

PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL – RECIPIENTS ONLY

Dear XXXX

(Cc XXXX at JCP)

 

Thank you for your letter dated 30th September 2014

 

As you know I am currently on ESA (Assessment Phase) and due to renew my sick note in the coming 2 weeks. My condition has not changed and I have regular appointments with my health care professional team to discuss these issues. In addition to this and without wishing to go in to details I am also due major surgery shortly so am under a consultants care for this. As an ESA (AP) claimant I am not mandated to attend WP appointments and nor will non-attendance affect my benefits so at this stage it is not beneficial to the progress of my health as I am not actively seeking work at this moment in time.

Should this change post ESA when I move back to JSA (no date) I will endeavour to contact you and enrol back on to the Work Programme with INGEUS and have regular appointments with you.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/340678/wp-pg-chapter-5.pdf

Mandatory participant moves from JSA to ESA

32. Where you are notified that a mandatory JSA participant has ceased their requirements should be treated as the same as those of a Voluntary ESA participant until the outcome of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA)

Whilst I understand the standpoint from INGEUS and needing to engage with the client (in this case me) as mentioned above, in my circumstance this is totally voluntary and not mandatory so at this stage I am electing to decline this appointment with no further action in relation to sanction. Kind regards

[essexmat]

Reply received this morning by email below - is it normal for them to ask for copies of sick notes as well?

 

That is fine, I am sorry to hear that you are not feeling any better. I will cancel the appointment arranged. If you could send a copy of your new sick certificate when you get it, so that I could update our records.

[Mr.P]

Sick notes are only of interest to the DWP when claiming ESA. Ingeus have no business asking for, or keeping records of your sick notes, especially when you have told them in the past that your medical condition(s) and treatment is none of their concern. You can either reply instructing this "adviser" to "take a hike", or hit the delete button and ignore - The latter is probably for the best in the long term.

[jasta11]

Reply received this morning by email below - is it normal for them to ask for copies of sick notes as well?

 

That is fine, I am sorry to hear that you are not feeling any better. I will cancel the appointment arranged. If you could send a copy of your new sick certificate when you get it, so that I could update our records.

 

I'd be tempted to reply 'A copy of my sick note is already in the hands of the organ grinder, thank you.' Good to see you keeping them in their place, Matt, keep at it!

[essexmat]

I have just emailed INGEUS back and said:

 

"Fit/sick notes are forwarded to DWP ESA in good time to aid my ESA claim - there is no need for INGEUS to maintain a record of this"

[Mr.P]

"[...]there is no need for INGEUS to maintain a record of this"

 

Slight correction: There is no legal, moral, or contractual reason to maintain a record [of your sick/fit notes].

[essexmat]

Slight correction: There is no legal, moral, or contractual reason to maintain a record [of your sick/fit notes].

 

If I use big words their confusion may make their heads explode!

[Charlotte_Henderson]

I often wonder who ingeus think they are, they have no need what so ever to see your sick note.

 

Not even sure they need to see people's job log, as surely only the DWP need to see that?

[essexmat]

They have a high opinion of themselves, always have, they think they are the gods of finding work - at the end of the day, DWP are their masters and they have no legal impact at all. Of course DWP are so overrun they have agencies like INGEUS to fall back on and blame for cock ups.

[Charlotte_Henderson]

They have a high opinion of themselves, always have, they think they are the gods of finding work - at the end of the day, DWP are their masters and they have no legal impact at all. Of course DWP are so overrun they have agencies like INGEUS to fall back on and blame for cock ups.

 

Absolutely agree with you mat, Ingeus are a total waste of money and offer no help what so ever to the unemployed....glad i am finally rid of them.

[essexmat]

So am I (at the moment anyway) although I know I will be back with them sooner rather than later

[essexmat]

Email reply just now:

 

"we like to keep sick notes on file for each work programme participant so it would be in your best interest to supply this to us when you have it"

 

Is this a veiled threat? If so it is not going to work as my ESA benefit does not require me to supply them this information, only the DWP ESA and health professionals are privy to this document. I am not replying any more.

[down'n'out]

"we like to keep sick notes on file for each work programme participant so it would be in your best interest to supply this to us when you have it"

 

They appear to be looking for "Implied consent" to store personal/private information.

[Mr.P]

They appear to be looking for "Implied consent" to store personal/private information.

 

Indeed, and as most sick notes give an overview of the medical reasons, it also provides confidential information.

 

essexmat: Perhaps it is time to use some big words and supply them with a dictionary if you decide to reply.

[PaddyDuffy]

I would be very tempted to make an official complaint. This is harassment , pure & simple.

[Chester6]

I often wonder who ingeus think they are, they have no need what so ever to see your sick note.

 

Not even sure they need to see people's job log, as surely only the DWP need to see that?

Personally I think that's down to them being either nosy, wanting to keep an eye so they can claim that they've actually helped or maybe a way to get the JCP to sanction as some may think they have powers above their job role

Edited October 7, 2014 by honeybee13
Pejorative word.

[Nystagmite]

I made the mistake of sending a copy of my sick note as requested. GP wrote 1 month on the end date thing. WP took that as 4 weeks. They would not stop trying to contact me on that day to make an appointment for the next day. I didn't answer my phone to them and ignored the many text messages they sent me.

[Charlotte_Henderson]

Personally I think that's down to them being either nosy, wanting to keep an eye so they can claim that they've actually helped or maybe a way to get the JCP to sanction as some may think they have powers above their job role

 

You could be right.

[Charlotte_Henderson]

I made the mistake of sending a copy of my sick note as requested. GP wrote 1 month on the end date thing. WP took that as 4 weeks. They would not stop trying to contact me on that day to make an appointment for the next day. I didn't answer my phone to them and ignored the many text messages they sent me.

 

These people are unreal, i never gave them my mobile number....i used to tell them i couldn't afford to have one!