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Campaign to stop banks creating money from nothing

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The two biggest forums on CAG are Banks and Debt, with over a million posts each. Clearly money is a big issue in the UK. What is the root cause? The answer is that money is created by private companies (banks) simply by typing figures into a computer. It’s a great business model, isn’t it? You apply for a mortgage, the bank types numbers into your account and then charges you interest on them, many thousands of pounds over many years. This was not some pensioner's savings: it was new money created out of nothing by the bank. But don't take my word for it: here it is explained by the Bank of England:

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/Pages/news/2014/051.aspx

"​Where does money come from? In the modern economy, most money takes the form of bank deposits. But how those bank deposits are created is often misunderstood. The principal way in which they are created is through commercial banks making loans: whenever a bank makes a loan, it creates a deposit in the borrower’s bank account, thereby creating new money."

 

 

The effects are huge and widespread:

· * If you are wondering why you are in debt, the answer is that these companies are incentivised to create as much debt as possible so they can charge interest on it. Moreover, we can never get out of debt, because then 97% of the money in the economy would disappear.

· * Why are houses so expensive? New money could be put into productive use - for example a business that employs people and makes widgets: but that's risky, so the biggest destination of new money is housing, and that's why houses are so expensive.

· * Pensioners on the breadline. £1 saved in the 1950s has been deflated down to 4p today by the creation of masses of new money.

· * The most profitable activity on the planet is now playing with numbers in computers. The brightest minds go not into industries that benefit society but into finance.

 

 

This is not the first time such a situation existed. In the 1800s the promissory notes issued by private banks had become money, the banks figured out they could just print more, and a property bubble was caused. So Parliament stepped in with the Bank Charter Act of 1844 and said that only the Bank of England could print money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_Charter_Act_1844

Unfortunately there was a get-out clause, which was Demand Deposits, i.e. your bank balance. With the advent of computers it became possible to multiply BoE currency massively, 48x at the time of the crash.

 

 

Money is not a natural phenomenon, it is manmade and we make the rules. Yet a few years after they needed to be saved, banks are in the position to pay £billions in bonuses. I think that the rules should have money serve society, not private, unaccountable, profit seeking enterprises. If you agree, please post your support so I can organise the campaign. I have also set up an e-petition here:

 

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/64050

 

If you don’t agree, please say why, cite your evidence, and we can have a sensible debate about it. Thank you.

Mike Garrard

Edited by citizenB
Highlighted petition link

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I've added my name to this petition as I agree with what you say. But while I know it's not good practice, but I'm not especially bothered about banks lending out money they don't have. We all play with money we do not have to some extent and maybe it's common business practice. However, like most people, I think it absolutely stinks when a bank can go bust or make a massive loss and they still pay out annual bonuses larger than all the money I will earn in my entire life. Surely that is the angle to attack.

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Good point, I also find it disgusting that they had to be bailed out by the taxpayer because they acted recklessly, then feel they deserve billions in bonuses just a short while later. However, the banks paying themselves huge bonuses is just one symptom of the way money works, which is why the petition addresses the cause. Easily the most profitable activity in the world today is just playing with numbers in a computer. This is not an industry that adds value, they just make the numbers in their accounts worth more and the numbers in your accounts worth less. The graph shows just how effective they have been: did you put money into a pension in the 1970’s or 1980s? Do you have a pension now and want the situation to change?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]50647[/ATTACH]

 

The specific point on playing with money we don't have is worth explaining. Let's say a friend wants to borrow money, so you print some out for them in your garage: you go to jail. What if you hacked into their bank account and increased the numbers? You go to jail. Not so the bank: because they have a logon ID, they simply add numbers to the account and create the new money. When the bank plays with money it doesn't have, magically it becomes money they do have just by hitting 'Enter'. Even though they didn't work to create that money, they still get to reclaim eg: your house if you stop the repayments. Type numbers into a computer... get a house. That's fair, right?

 

We are heading towards the next crash until we change something fundamental about the *way* money works, not just the size of buffer separating ourselves from said crash. Honestly I'm quite surprised at the apparent ambivalence of CAG. Last figures I saw estimate nearly 100M people worldwide pushed into poverty by the financial crash, making this one of the most important campaigns around. If it’s a lack of understanding or belief, then please ask questions! If you do understand then please sign the petition.

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Of course it goes on and you think a petition is going to stop it ? How big is your army ?

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Well, about 35M people bought an overpriced house because the banks inflated the property market. Then there's anyone with a loan, and anyone with debt. No, I don't think a petition will stop it, but it will raise the level of understanding and start the conversation. Most people just don't beleive that banks "print" electronic money from nothing, and I'm not surprised because it's not their everyday experience of working for money. If people have thought about it at all, they believe that the Bank of England is in control of the money supply, whereas the graph clearly shows they are not: £375bn of QE and these private companies still managed to contract the money supply and worsen the recession. We have to start somewhere and a petition is a start. If you also want to lobby your MP then please do. Parliament already removed this power from the banks once, they can do it again, and will when enough people ask for it.

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I have added my name to your campaign, all loans and mortgages are created in this way, if people new this they might have second thoughts about taking out these products, and the banks and building society's should be made to tell you this when you take a product. This is what the Power of attorney is used for, most people don't even know that they have one put in place by the banks or building society's when you buy a house or take out a mortgage. Any one with a mortgage should take a look at there T & C and ask the questions to there mortgage provider what was the power of attorney used for and what did they execute in your name.

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Cheers Filrobbo, don't forget to tell your friends :)

 

Nice to see the Financial Times getting behind the campaign. Or at least identifyiing the issue, the problems it causes, and slightly 'warning' their customers of the solution. Thanks!

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7f000b18-ca44-11e3-bb92-00144feabdc0.html#axzz30PY2Lbn2

I will put up highlights when I have more time, for those who don't want to register with FT; but the clue is in the title:

"Strip private banks of their power to create money"

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Cudos to Martin Wolf, leading UK economics commentator for FT: the warning is of the repeat crash that will happen unless we do something. Indeed, specifically something like this:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/64050

 

Title: "Strip private banks of their power to create money"

 

"The giant hole at the heart of our market economies needs to be plugged.

Printing counterfeit banknotes is illegal, but creating private money is not. ... It could – and should – be terminated."

...

"Banks create deposits as a byproduct of their lending. In the UK, such deposits make up about 97 per cent of the money supply. Some people object that deposits are not money but only transferable private debts. Yet the public views the banks’ imitation money as electronic cash ..."

...

"[irving] Fisher [famous economist] argued that this would greatly reduce business cycles, end bank runs and drastically reduce public debt. A 2012 study by International Monetary Fund staff suggests this plan could work well."

...

"The state, not banks, would create all transactions money, just as it creates cash today."

...

"Banks could offer investment accounts, which would provide loans. But they could only loan money actually invested by customers. They would be stopped from creating such accounts out of thin air and so would become the intermediaries that many wrongly believe they now are."

 

"The transition to a system in which money creation is separated from financial intermediation ... would bring huge advantages. It would be possible to increase the money supply without encouraging people to borrow to the hilt. It would end “too big to fail” in banking. It would also transfer seignorage – the benefits from creating money – to the public."

...

"It [loophole] could be closed by separating the provision of money, rightly a function of the state, from the provision of finance, a function of the private sector."

 

"This will not happen now. But remember the possibility. When the next crisis comes – and it surely will – we need to be ready."

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Totally agree, it's got my backing something really needs to be done now and done fast.

Edited by filrobbo
spelling

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I have highlighted your petition link in post # 1 as it was kind of hidden :)

 

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/64050


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Thanks. 1200 views and virtually no signitories. Do you folks not believe this is how money works, or maybe think it's unchangeable? I would really like to know!

As an example, of £375bn QE, only 8% found it's way out of the financial system and into the productive economy. If the benefits of creating money went to the public not to private companies, that could have been a massive infrastrucure injection, flood defences, schools, hospitals, not needing to cash in the Royal Mail plus HS2 thrown in for good measure. Isn't this worth a signiture?

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Hi Mike, I think when it comes to putting your name to something on tinternet, people feel their privacy is compromised. That's a lot of views not to get a more substantial response but this has happened with other campaigns. I was a member of a campaign group going back about fourteen years, so on line not playing a part. We got our 10k sigs required at that time, setting up street stalls in various locations, handing petition sheets to friends, family and more, to have the matter raised in Parliament. It started a local campaign then became National. It's now 100k sigs required but with the internet a key player in spreading the word today, it does surprise me the campaigns which do not get off the ground.

 

I don't know why people worry so much about adding their name to campaigns, as IMO your privacy and thoughts are being compromised in daily life more and more now. Have you got a Facebook Fan page to get the social media side more involved and Twitter? There's also other social networks worth a thought. The Huffington Post worth a look, and check out their Twittering.

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It seems you are right. It's unfortunate, because the issue is serious. An example: if houses were subject to normal inflation and not bank created money inflation, the average house today would cost £85k (referenced to Nationwide index start of 1983). I think this would make a big difference to the number of people struggling to pay the mortgage, the number of reposessions, and the ability to get on the property ladder.

 

For information to those who haven’t signed an e-petition before, then you have to provide your name, address, and an email. That information does not get published: this is part of the epetitions process: it is used to verify you as a UK resident and prevent double counting. This is what elevates e-petitions above blogs and forums and potentially into the democratic process.

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Joe, Mike, and Simon are down the pub. A man approaches them as they are sitting at the table and asks them 'how much money have you all got?' Joe says that he has £10, Mike and Simon shake their heads and admit they are skint. Joe then decides to lend Mike £10. When the man returns and asks them once more how much money they have, Joe says he has £10, and now Mike says he has £10 as well, so now there is £20 worth of money where there was only £10 before. As long as Joe thinks that the £10 that he lent Mike is his money, then it's his money, in the same way as when people lend money to banks, they still think that it's their money.
This from a debate I am having with someone in financial services.

Does he have the description right?

If so, what are the implications?

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That's about how it is ,take a look athttp://youtu.be/tU4Ovk9vfzA white rabbit how banks work ,he was a bank manager and has worked in the financial sector for over 20 years.

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Yes, actually it is correct when it comes to banks. I thought it was actually a great description of the flaws in the system. Here's my version:

 

Joe the High Street Banker lends £10 to Mike; then another £10 to Fred; then another £10 to George, again and again, ten, twenty, thirty times. In the pub he’d need a magic wallet that refilled every time he took £10 out, but instead he's a Banker with a computer and puts ‘10’ into each of their accounts. They think it’s money because they go to the cashpoint, draw it out, and spend it at places that use Bank of Joe. Then Joe gets to lend it out again, even though when he typed it, it was just a magic ‘10’ in their account on the back of his previous IOU, which itself was on the back of the previous IOU, which itself.... you get the picture. Joe thinks he ‘attracted’ the deposit when really it had no-where to go but a mattress or back into the banking system.

 

Both Mike and George spent their money at the corner shop. The owner goes to Joe’s cashpoint to withdraw £20: now Joe’s in trouble! But don’t worry, the Chancellor of the Exchequer will bail him out using a little bit of money from Mike, and Fred, and George .... in fact all of Joe’s customers get a little bit poorer so that Joe doesn’t go bust. Joe feels so happy with his ability to generate interest on £300 using just £10 that he pays himself around seven times his annual salary in shares, bonus payments and incentive schemes.

 

Society sighs with the inequality of it all thinking nothing can be done against the powerful banks, even though Parliament already stopped this once before. With no direction from the Populous, not even a signed petition, MPs tut-tut at the bankers' bonuses but take no action.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/64050

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By the end of next year your mortgage payments may be double. But that's OK, because the value of your house has gone up, right? 10% over the last year. From Nationwide:

article-1607881-1D7E0C4800000578-286_634x361.jpg

 

But did your standard of living go up, or did you return to the same house as yesterday? If you think about it, what's actually going to happen is your standard of living will drop. So why is this happening?

 

Well, imagine you're a bank manager and the political pressure is on you to lend. You could loan to a business that makes things and employs people, the productive economy; but that's risky. Far safer to lend a mortgage: it's a win-win. Either you get 25 years of interest, more than the cost of the house: or the borrower defaults and you get the house. A good return for typing numbers into a computer, and so this is where the majority of bank created money has gone. Here's what that did to the money supply:

Money-Supply-1960-2010.jpg

 

Has your salary gone up like that? How about your pension or savings? And you also have a huge debt/mortgage, twice as big as it would have been if private companies had not pumped up property prices in order to maximise their profits.

 

If you are content with the erosion of you standard of living in order that banks can make bigger profits, then do nothing. If you think that new money should be under control of the state and benefit society, then please sign the petition.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/64050

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So here's my experience: back in 1988 and about 19 minutes before the property crash, I paid a licenced acredited professional more than a month's worth of discretionary salary to carry out a full structural survey and valuation of a flat. He said 'in the current market conditions ... valuation £70k' and on that basis I bought my first property. At the time I had one engineering degree, but had not spent time analyzing the ratio of prices to average salaries, the past 20 years history of house prices or the creation of money. Interest rates hit 15% the next year and one person I worked with was paying his entire take home to the bank and surviving on overtime. It was another 14 years before the flat was worth £70k again: there were many others in negaitve equity by 1989, and I'm sure also in 2007.

 

You can call me naive if you like: it's obvious that the buyer wants maximum price, as does the estate agent. Gazumped was the word at the time. I figured there were two balancing forces: the independent surveyor on a fee not a commission, who did not mention we were at the peakiest peak in his career; and the bank who surely would not lend over the asset price? How wrong I was! The surveyor had a get-out clause, and it took another 20 years for the banking industry to see any downside to pumping money into asset bubbles.

 

Now the banks have observed the problem: but it does not matter, because YOU will bail them out. They get the upside, and if everything goes wrong £85k of each deposit account is guaranteed by YOU.

 

So all you frequent CAG expert posters: you advised people on their debt; you railed against payday lenders; you pointed to great deals on mortgages, and where to compare energy prices. Here's the opportunity to get behind a structural change in money that might just prevent the next crash, and all the misery that accompanies it. But it's no good just reading this post, or just reading the petition. You have to actually click on "sign" to make a difference.

 

Thanks from the many you just helped.

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Hi Mike, I think when it comes to putting your name to something on tinternet, people feel their privacy is compromised. That's a lot of views not to get a more substantial response but this has happened with other campaigns. I was a member of a campaign group going back about fourteen years, so on line not playing a part. We got our 10k sigs required at that time, setting up street stalls in various locations, handing petition sheets to friends, family and more, to have the matter raised in Parliament. It started a local campaign then became National. It's now 100k sigs required but with the internet a key player in spreading the word today, it does surprise me the campaigns which do not get off the ground.

 

I don't know why people worry so much about adding their name to campaigns, as IMO your privacy and thoughts are being compromised in daily life more and more now. Have you got a Facebook Fan page to get the social media side more involved and Twitter? There's also other social networks worth a thought. The Huffington Post worth a look, and check out their Twittering.

 

This is good advice and very true. There are a lot of people who won't sign things when they feel their privacy is being invaded

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Pros and cons. The very people who won't give an address to the Gov't, who state in the epetition process that adresses are not published but used to confirm UK residency and prevent multiple votes, also have an account with Yahoo, Google, Facebook or a Tesco Clubcard. I'm more concerned about the latter: at least HMG can be changed democratically. Banks can't though, which is why we need to get an organisation who outranks them (in some areas) to reign them in before they create the next crash, which is inevitable as so far the legislation just made them step one pace further from the cliff, nothing fundamental was changed. The London property bubble is evidence: rather than pumping up all property including sub-prime, they are pumping false cash into property where people are deemed 'good for it'.

To quote Mervyn King:

“House prices are a matter of opinion whereas debt is real.”

Until we strip private companies of the power to create money, this will continue to happen in whatever asset is most profitable for them. That's what the petition is about

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/64050

And I notice I posted highlights but didn't actually post a link above to the FT where they echoed my PoV here:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7f000b18-ca44-11e3-bb92-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=uk#axzz30PY2Lbn2

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Well, in-spite of opposing vested interests, it seems there is a ground-swell of opinion that thinks the banking industry should put in its place. Steve Baker MP has tabled a debate 'Money Creation an Society' so that Parliament can discuss whether money should be created by private banks for the purposes of their profit, or whether, as I think, it should be under Parliamentary control for the benefit of the people. Money is a man-made concept and Parliament can - as it did last time - change the rules. You can help: just ask your MP to attend the debate; that's all! It doesn't matter which party he is from or what his view are or even whether you agree with them, we (financially aware citizens) need the ruling elite to be educated on money. But you need to act now: the debate is this Thursday 20th. It might be the most important thing you do for your future this weekend, and it's easy. Contact your MP and ask him to attend the debate. You can find his details and email via this link:

http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/contact-your-mp/contacting-your-mp/

or even tweet:

http://tweetminster.co.uk/mps

Or if you want a pre-written email, the organisation Positive Money has arranged this too:

http://www.positivemoney.org/get-involved/email-your-mp/

Thanks from me, and good job exercising your democratic rights :)

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NOTHING will ever change. The banks run this country and the government know that if the banks leave, this country would go under. It's not indicative of the current government, but from every government since the end of WW2 when the banks took major advantage of the state of the country and economy.


Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

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If the banks leave, where would they go to? Who would they find to rip off when they got there? What currency would they use? ours? We have heard this sort of whinging so many times from this shower and Amazon Vodafone David Cameron et al. Let them go and good riddance to bad rubbish. After they had paid their tax of course and refunded their depositors.

Their space could easily be filled by proper traditional mutual building societies and local banks of the kind that helped build this country and made it great. As for the other so called businesses we don't need them since we have all the skills and expertise here at home.

MikeG's campaign is the best thing I have seen on CAG since joining several years ago. It gets right to the core of all the problems on this forum, although I am amazed at the lack of support so far. 43 signatures! it should be 43000 by now.

I strongly urge the site team to support this campaign and promote the petition with a banner headline. We urgently need to wrest control of this country from the crooks and spivs.

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Thanks. Not many signatures it's true, but the point of the petition was to get a debate in Parliament and that was acheived. Primarily it turns out to be an education problem: most people believe

1) that banks lend out Granny's savings

2) that either only the Govt creates money, or that the Govt is in control of how much is created

We haven't seen sufficent change so far because based upon a recent poll of MPs, 2/3rds fit into the above category. So the most useful thing anyone can do today is get their MP to the discussion this Thursday 20th. It's about time that the Govt gets advice on banking from someone who isnt a banker!

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