Received CC Claim Form but POC are illegible

[peeg]

Hello,

 

I have received an N1 claim form from a building firm

 

I am in dispute with over work they did for me (there was no contract or quote or any verbal agreement of the sum involved)

- the N1 form is a photocopy which has been stamped by NCC/CCMCC

 

but the photocopy is so faint that I cannot read the POC on the reverse.

 

Presumably this did not come through MCOL.

 

Who do I contact to get a legible copy and will that affect the time I have to put in the Acknowledgement of Service?

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi peeg, and welcome to CAG!

 

In this situation I would phone the Court and say that what you have received is illegible. The photocopy would have been sent by the claimant but CCMCC should have checked it before sending it on. Ask them if what they have is actually legible and if so ask them to send you a copy. If they can't read their copy either they should be taking it up with the claimant.

 

Put in the acknowledgment of service. You should always follow Court instructions/Directions even if these are amended at a later date.

 

DD

[peeg]

Hi Daniella

 

Thanks for your reply - I have called the court and they said their Business Team (?) will follow it up and get a proper copy sent - the lady I spoke to couldn't say whether the copy they had was legible.

 

However, I don't really know what to put in the Acknowledgement of Service, as without the POC I don't know what it is exactly I have to defend (I have a pretty good idea). Is it worth opening another thread about their claim? I am at a loss about whether to pay it to get rid of it (under £5k), offer to pay some or to fight the whole thing, so I don't know exactly how to reply to the N1 yet

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi peeg,

 

What is the date for the Acknowledgement of Service? If you have time I'd hold on until you get the copy of the POC.

 

Do you want to pay them anything?

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

I'd also send an email to the Court confirming the conversation you have just had with them.

[peeg]

Thank you - in fact the court advised me to send in the Acknowledgement anyway. On the claim form the service date is 8th April (tomorrow). The lady at the court said the legible POC (presuming they have it) would be sent to me tomorrow.

 

In terms of paying them, I think I am morally obliged to pay them *something* but I am not sure whether I am legally obliged to. The claimant did a lot of work on my property last year, the majority of which was without a quote or a contract (argh!), so I only have my recollection of verbal agreements and one or two emails about what I wanted done. I paid their first invoice, which was over 2k more than their original quote - which we both agreed was invalid. From then on I never received an updated quote despite asking several times. When they 'finished' the work I had a final bill - I had no idea it would be so much, and there were several important tasks that were not done, so I told them that I wasn't happy to pay the bill unless they provided what they said they would, and finished the work and repaired what they damaged. Then I had a letter and a call from their solicitors, to whom I told the story above - I understood that the solicitor didn't know the history and was a bit surprised when I told him - he said 'they can't just take action without any grounds, I'll get his put on hold' (or words to that effect). So I've half been expecting contact from them asking to resolve it, but instead I now have the N1 form :/

[Desperate Daniella]

The solicitor may have told them that they couldn't proceed with the claim they wished to make, and they have now gone ahead without him. Can you even see if the form has been signed by the builder or his solicitor?

 

Was the letter you received from the solicitor a Letter Before Claim which basically sets out what they are asking for and gives you time to respond?

 

Have to go out now but will be back later.

[peeg]

Hello, thanks for the response again

 

Yes, I had a letter from their solicitor (which I can dig out) that I presume was a letter before action. At this point I got hold of my solicitor and asked him to have a look, and in the meantime I had a call from their solicitor and the conversation went as above.

 

The N1 form has been signed by the claimant but the address is c/o their solicitor. The address has been filled in in different handwriting so I don't know if this is their solicitor or not. It is just the POC that are illegible, all the other handwriting on that side is fine.

[Desperate Daniella]

I would phone the solicitor tomorrow - or email - and ask if he is representing the builder. If he is not representing the builder, the builder should not be using his address without permission, and I'd be surprised if the solicitors would give permission if they aren't acting.

 

Let's see if the POC on the original copy can be read. If not you can tell the court you cannot defend because you can't read the POC.

 

You may of course want to put in a counterclaim against him for the work he failed to do.

 

DD

[peeg]

OK - I have managed to get it slightly more legible by scanning it and doing a bit of Photoshoppery.

 

POC is as follows:

1st sentence is not at all clear but I think it says 'WORK CARRIED OUT AS DESCRIBED YESTERDAY' (not sure what that means or to whom they have described the work)

CUSTOMER CHANGED THEIR MIND ALL THROUGH [something] JOB

FIRST INVOICE PAID FOR. SECOND INVOICE EVEN AFTER SERVRAL [sic] ATTEMPTS TO CONTACT CUSTOMER I HAVE HAD NO RESPONSE.

 

That's it.

I don't know if it has any bearing, but the first and second invoices and almost all correspondence were between the claimant's mother (who I believe is a director of the company) and my girlfriend. Once the solicitors got involved it is now all directed at me.

 

[edit]: in the Statement of Truth, 'Name of claimant's solicitor's firm' is blank, and 'position or office held' has the handwritten date.

Edited April 8, 2014 by peeg
additional info

[Desperate Daniella]

Does it give any precise figures?

 

That is not giving particulars of the claim.

 

You could apply to have the claim struck out, but he'll probably be given time to amend it. It could be a way to start though.

 

You mentioned he didn't do all the work and caused damage? Have you had this completed or repaired by another builder?

 

Have you ever received an itemised bill giving dates, work undertaken and costs?

[steampowered]

You are legally required to pay them something. If no price was agreed you will have to pay a 'reasonable sum'. This would be assessed by reference to the quote given (it sounds like there might be a dispute over this) and whether the work done reflected the quote (likewise).

 

The POC is not CPR compliant. Obviously it has not been drafted by a solicitor or by anyone with who has basic knowledge of the legal process. You still need to acknowledge service and file a Defence within the court deadlines. If you intend to get another builder in to finish the job, you should also write to the builder formally terminating the contract due to their breach of contract, and then make a counterclaim at the same time as filing your Defence.

 

As DD said, you could apply to get this struck out. There is a decent chance the court would order the claimant to re-do their POC rather than just striking the whole claim.

[peeg]

The only figures given are for the amount claimed plus court fee (solicitor's costs are blank) - nothing in the POC or Brief details.

 

The work is still as the claimant (or his employee) left it - it hasn't been completed/repaired. The damage is not great but is something I asked them to repair, which they didn't. Part of the damage was to a fence (which the claimant previously built), but that fence has now fallen apart - I think this is probably a separate matter.

 

They did give us an itemised bill which according to another builder (I haven't had the work looked at by another builder *officially*) is quite inflated. I am not sure where I stand really, as there is no paperwork :/

[steampowered]

Indeed. If there is no paperwork and you want to challenge the bill, you will need to do your homework in order to prove that the amount claimed is not a reasonable amount. There are three parts to this.

 

The first part would be assembling evidence to show that the amounts are inflated. This might take the form of quotes from other builders. It would be a good idea to try and get an expert report explaining precisely why the figures are inflated and what a reasonable amount would be. The expert would probably be an experienced and independent builder. If this is the route you want to go down, you'd need to ask the court's permission to use an expert report on the Allocation Questionnaire (which comes after filing a Defence).

 

The second part would be producing evidence about the quote. It sounds like the quote was verbal only? In which case your evidence for this would be a witness statement from you.

 

The third part would be sorting evidence about what they did not do. You would need to prove both what they promised (presumably this was oral only - so goes in your witness statement), and how they didn't comply with this (photographs?) and how much it would cost to put it right (quote from another builder perhaps?)

[Desperate Daniella]

I think they would probably ask him to re-do the POC rather than striking it out immediately. However, judging from what he's put on the POC he clearly doesn't know how to do it himself and will probably have to go back to his solicitor, who sounded quite reasonable from the conversation you had with him.

 

As steampowered has said, you'll have to pay him a reasonable sum, but your costs for someone else to complete the work and do the repairs can also be taken into consideration here so you can counterclaim against him.

[peeg]

You are legally required to pay them something. If no price was agreed you will have to pay a 'reasonable sum'. This would be assessed by reference to the quote given (it sounds like there might be a dispute over this) and whether the work done reflected the quote (likewise).

 

Yes - I agree that I need to pay them something (this is what I told their solicitors). However, there was no quote given. The original quote (£1.5k) we both agreed was invalid. So for the sum he is asking (£4.3k) and the sum I have already paid him (£3.7k) there was no quote whatsoever, not even a verbal one.

 

Indeed. If there is no paperwork and you want to challenge the bill, you will need to do your homework in order to prove that the amount claimed is not a reasonable amount. There are three parts to this.

 

The first part would be assembling evidence to show that the amounts are inflated. This might take the form of quotes from other builders. It would be a good idea to try and get an expert report explaining precisely why the figures are inflated and what a reasonable amount would be. The expert would probably be an experienced and independent builder. If this is the route you want to go down, you'd need to ask the court's permission to use an expert report on the Allocation Questionnaire (which comes after filing a Defence).

 

So I think this is the key issue - to get a builder to a) quote for the work that was already done, and b) quote for what needs to still be done. Presumably I can do that anyway (as the work still needs doing) and then ask the court for permission to use it?

 

 

The third part would be sorting evidence about what they did not do. You would need to prove both what they promised (presumably this was oral only - so goes in your witness statement), and how they didn't comply with this (photographs?) and how much it would cost to put it right (quote from another builder perhaps?)

 

Yes, this is easy enough in terms of writing it down (the Claimant already knows what he did not do) and taking photographs. I am wary of them saying they didn't agree to this as there is no record of it (bar a single email from my girlfriend to the claimant about one of the issues before the work was done). They have not tried to charge me for work they haven't done - the work that was actually done has been itemised fairly satisfactorily in the invoices.

 

 

In terms of what the court can order if the claimant wins, is it just the amount plus court fees as it is the small claims track? I am still undecided about whether to pay the whole thing just to save myself the trouble (availability of funds is not an issue, thankfully). There are several other niggles that are clouding my judgement and making me very stubborn, however.

[steampowered]

You don't need permission to use a quote as evidence of the amount it would cost to put it right. You would however need permission to use a report from an independent expert.

 

It is sensible to make a written offer headed 'without prejudice'. This can't be used as evidence in the case ... but if you lose the case it will vastly reduce the risk of the judge thinking you behaved unreasonably (which is basically the only situation in small claims track where you might be ordered to pay the other side's legal costs if unsuccessful).

[peeg]

Just a quick update that has confused me a bit:

 

I had a letter from CCMCC today following my call to ask for a legible N1 with POC. They have sent me essentially the same form with illegible POC, but the covering letter says this:

 

"Thank you for your phone call on the 7/4/14. Please find enclosed a copy of the claim form as requested. The 2nd side of the claim form has been tipexed out and all the particulars of claim are on the front."

 

Does this mean that I am to ignore what I think is in the POC and treat the Brief details of claim as the POC? It seems odd that the court would accept this. The Brief details of claim are as follows:

WORK CARRIED OUT AT REAR OF PROPERTY TO ALLOW FOR EXTENSION AT LATER STAGE. QUOTE WAS GIVEN AT FIRST BUT THINGS CHANGED SO MUCH AS PER REQUEST OF CUSTOMER* THAT QUOTE WAS NO LONGER VALID. FIRST INVOICE PAID.

 

That's it.

 

* This is not strictly true. The claimant and his employee recommended extra works to my girlfriend which we agreed to.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi,

 

Will come back tomorrow, but although you have to pay him something you need to deduct the cost of the damage and the cost of completing the work. I would do that and then contact him and say you'll offer him £xxx.

 

Send in the acknowledgement and say you are defending.

 

You could also ask them to dismiss the claim on the basis that the particulars of claim are so vague. He's going to need to provide a proper invoice if he wants to take this further, itemising everything he has done including materials bought, etc.

[Desperate Daniella]

He may well think that you'll pay up just because he's issued the claim.

 

Have you had a word with the solicitor about his using their address? If he's not instructing them I can't see that they would be happy about that.

[steampowered]

If its not legible to you or the CMCC it presumably isn't legible to the judge. The appropriate thing to do is to write to the other side and inform them of this, and ask them to send you a legible POC.

 

Either way, you need to make sure you acknowledge and file a Defence within the proper deadlines to avoid getting a default judgment.

[SuperVillain]

The Civil Procedure Rules at Practice Direction 5A state:

 

2.2 Every document prepared by a party for filing or use at the Court must –

 

 

(2) be fully legible and should normally be typed,

 

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/civil/rules/part05/pd_part05a

[Desperate Daniella]

I think what the Court is saying is that they have accepted the Claim form without requiring the Claimant to enter a proper POC on the back. He wrote something and tippexed it out and the Court is accepting just what he's written on the front as the POC.

 

Do you think they should do that? They probably didn't even look at it before they sent it out, and have only noticed because it's now been pointed out to them.

[SuperVillain]

I think what the Court is saying is that they have accepted the Claim form without requiring the Claimant to enter a proper POC on the back. He wrote something and tippexed it out and the Court is accepting just what he's written on the front as the POC.

 

Do you think they should do that? They probably didn't even look at it before they sent it out, and have only noticed because it's now been pointed out to them.

 

I see what you mean but the OP said the Court letter stated the particulars are on the front of the N1.

 

Again this is a sign of the court giving leeway to Litigants in Person. If they can take what's on the front as being Particulars and it has been signed with a statement of truth then they'll do so to keep the ball rolling.

 

The point remains that if what's on the front is illegible then it's not acceptable.

[Desperate Daniella]

What is on the front is legible but doesn't give specific particulars. I suppose he can do that in his Witness Statement.