Pen vs Lloyds TSB **TOTALLY & UTTERLY WON!**

[gizmo111]

What time is the hearing on 23rd?

[Pen]

What a wonderful bunch you all are, Gary and Sue, Thank you for your kind offers but I would not dream of letting any off you travel all this way for my hearing, it really is a wonderful gesture and I deeply appreciate it, but not only is it too far you both have either jobs or family to attend too. I will attend the court next weds and even if I lose what the heck it's only money, although I am glad I have made such wonderful friends due to it. However I don't intend to lose, I cannot see SC&M producing anything new at court not even T&Cs surely if they do have anything they would have had to produce it when I requested my SAR, don't forget I won Judgment on that, if they did produce something I was unaware of would they not be breaking the Law somehow by not providing me with it when I requested. I think I will take that Judgment with me in just case. Also they have not produced their court bundle or made any contact with me.

 

Gary if you can find anyone local (that's, if they ain't at the cup final) then that would be great but if not that's OK, please don't come all this way, I will just make sure I read everything thats relevant on this site and make sure I have all my arguments written down. If I do have to give in to CI then so be it. I have been so much better lately that I am sure I can manage if necessary. Gizmo I have been told to be there for 10am, but they have not given a listing time. I have written down all the questions i may need to ask ref Bankfodder, I have all the documents, so all I need to do is make sure I know enough to argue my case if need be and keep my fingers crossed for the right outcome.

I really do appreciate all of you kind offers, so thank you all of you so much.

 

Pen

[gizmo111]

Pen, hopefully we will have someone lovely near you to come with you.

[daisy_bumbleroot]

PEN! PEN!! TAKE HEART!!!! I WON!!!

 

I will keep subscibed to your thread though and fingers crossed. If you go to court, as many of us should come to, to offer support!!!!

[empowered]

PEN! PEN!! TAKE HEART!!!! I WON!!!

 

I will keep subscibed to your thread though and fingers crossed. If you go to court, as many of us should come to, to offer support!!!!

 

Pen - where are you based and where is your court? I am available on Wednesday - it just depends whereabout you are in the country - I'm Guildford but perfectly prepared to travel to hold your hand having been reading all your trials and tribulations since I joined in January. You will be a lot more prepared and clued up than me on this one but if you want some moral support I'm quite happy to be there and share the champagne afterwards! Debs x (PS - I have to say you are sounding one very well confident and plucky lady - I admire you for everything you have been put through both personally as well as from the banks!)x

[Pen]

Empowered what a loverly thing to say, i feel sad now:o , but honestly, i would not be happy for anyone to travel a long way just to help me, i really would feel bad over it, it's a loverly gesture and thank you. for your generous offer why does everyone live so far away grrrrr. I am in Liverpool but saying that its some sort of football final on the 23rd so Liverpool will be busying in the evening, thats if they win of course so a great time for a night on the tiles.

 

Daisy I have just poped over to your thread to say congrats, that has cheered me up no end. lucky you.

 

Gizmo and Gary, if someone who lives close could be with me i would really really appreciate it, if i have to go on my own that will be OK and I will manage, so pleas do not worry too much it's not as if I have not been to court before I had loads of times as part of my past employment, but it would be nice to have a friendly face and some one who could kick SC&Ms bum.

[empowered]

Empowered what a loverly thing to say, i feel sad now:o , but honestly, i would not be happy for anyone to travel a long way just to help me, i really would feel bad over it, it's a loverly gesture and thank you. for your generous offer why does everyone live so far away grrrrr. I am in Liverpool but saying that its some sort of football final on the 23rd so Liverpool will be busying in the evening, thats if they win of course so a great time for a night on the tiles.

 

Daisy I have just poped over to your thread to say congrats, that has cheered me up no end. lucky you.

 

Gizmo and Gary, if someone who lives close could be with me i would really really appreciate it, if i have to go on my own that will be OK and I will manage, so pleas do not worry too much it's not as if I have not been to court before I had loads of times as part of my past employment, but it would be nice to have a friendly face and some one who could kick SC&Ms bum.

 

Pen, for the life of me I thought you were somewhere on the South Coast! Another senior moment. Oh well, Liverpool is a tad far to get there for 10am. I'm sure that somebody will be there for you (it may not even get to that stage!). However, you are honour bound to report straight back with your results - you know how nervy people get when waiting to hear about other people's cases - we turn grey by the minute. With much love and thinking of you! x:p

[Pen]

you know how nervy people get when waiting to hear about other people's cases - we turn grey by the minute.

Hi Empowered, oops sorry can't say I do. I am only a spring chicken myself lol:D But I promise as soon as I return home I will be straight on here with the news, x my heart and your offer really was a loverly one. Thank You

Pen

[Pondfish]

Hi Pen,

 

Just swam over to Daisy Bumbleroot' s thread and saw the compliment!

 

Yes, quite a handsome specimen, i'm glad it spreads some cheer!

 

Lloyds aren't so keen though, but then again the Fish doesn't have much time for them!

 

Go get em Pen!

 

Nice gesture Debs! There are some really nice genuine people on this site, the fish's faith in humanity is being restored.

 

Pondy

[daisy_bumbleroot]

Hi Pen,

 

Just swam over to Daisy Bumbleroot' s thread and saw the compliment!

 

Yes, quite a handsome specimen, i'm glad it spreads some cheer!

 

Lloyds aren't so keen though, but then again the Fish doesn't have much time for them!

 

Go get em Pen!

 

Nice gesture Debs! There are some really nice genuine people on this site, the fish's faith in humanity is being restored.

 

Pondy

((((Hugs)))) To Pondy

((((Hugs)))) to Pen - Im going to keep watching and chering you on

[GaryH]

Nice gesture Debs! There are some really nice genuine people on this site, the fish's faith in humanity is being restored.

Absolutely - CAG is a wonderful place, dispite the recent critism from some quarters. People say the community spirit has been lost, but I don't think thats true at all - at least not on the Lloyds forum anyway!

[empowered]

Absolutely - CAG is a wonderful place, dispite the recent critism from some quarters. People say the community spirit has been lost, but I don't think thats true at all - at least not on the Lloyds forum anyway!

 

When push comes to shove, PEOPLE matter - everything else is totally superfluous - one nice gesture or hug can change a person's day:p

[Pen]

Hi Empowered, you are so right, I loved my hug of Daisey, what a loverly thing to say. I have not been on the threads for the other banks so I can't really comment on them , all I can say is Lloyd's are a crap bank one of the worst I think if not the worst but the one thing i have to thank them for is the amount of friends i have made on this site. I think I will put them on my Xmas card list:rolleyes: :rolleyes: after they have stopped playing Scrooge and given us all our money back that is.

[GaryH]

Hi Pen.

 

We've found you a fantastic buddy who is local and more than happy to go with you. Elsinore - he's going to go through your thread and will contact you in the next day or so.

 

So are you prepared then do you think?

 

Personally, I think that by far the most likely scenario on Wednesday is that they will turn up and indicate that they are willing to settle the charges but contest the CI.

 

If this is the case you will then have to decide whether you want to argue for the CI or not.

 

I suppose it is conceivable that they could contest the whole lot but IMHO its not very likely I don't think. Obviously you must prepare for the worst case scenario though, which is why I'm posting the following.

 

If Lloyds barrister turns up to defend, the first thing you should do is object strongly to the fact that they have breached the order for directions. They are a multi national company represented by specialist solicitors. You are a litigant in person. You handed your bundle in on time giving them 14 days to prepare their case in view of yours. If they were to turn up with a bundle of documents or a witness statement which you had not previously seen, that would be grossly unfair and an uneven footing contrary to the Overriding Objectives of the Civil Procedure Rules. On this basis you should request an adjournment of 14 days.

 

Also object strongly to the fact that SC&M have been totally intransigent and uncooperative and have completely ignored any communication you've attempted to make.

 

I'm just finishing an improved and tightened up version of the witness statement now. I'll e-mail you that later on, after I've had it checked. Theoretically you could simply hand the witness statement to the judge and give your evidence that way. You should still make sure you understand the main arguments though so as you can answer any questions and also so as you can counter any comebacks from the other side.

 

Main points to argue

 

1) Charges arise from express breach of contract.

 

An overdraft limit is an express term which you break in exceeding it. The charges arise from a specific event demonsterable as a breach of your account agreement. Focus on the definition of the word "limit" -

 

• noun 1 a point beyond which something does not or may not pass. 2 a restriction on the size or amount of something. 3 the furthest extent of one’s endurance. • verb (limited, limiting) set or serve as a limit to.

The very fact that they call it an "unauthorised OD" also means that your not allowed to exceed the contractual limit.

 

2) Implied breach

 

If there is no breach of an express term, there is an implied term prohibiting the overdraft limit being exceeeded or a DD/SO being paid with insufficiant funds. Ask the court to consider the unequal bargining power of the parties, I.e. consumer v massive financial institution, when considering whether the term is implied.

 

3) Disguised Penalties

 

The defendant has restructured its terms in order to attempt to avoid the law relating to contractual penalties. The charges are penalties which the defendant has simply "cloaked" or disguised. The implications if contractual parties were able to avoid the common law simply by rewording terms of the same contract would be catastrophic and hugely detremental to the consumer.

 

The OFT, a public body representing the interest of consumers, predicted that banks would attempt to disguise their penalties in this way and ruled that the law is concerned with the intentions and effects of terms, rather than merely how they are dressed up.

 

4) Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982

 

If the court finds that the charges are a service, the price must be reasonable. There must be a correlation between the service and the cost. The charges have increased without warning a number of times since you've held the account. The bank have declined to provide evidence of these costs and should be made to disclose.

 

 

Also, don't worry about the Birmingham judgement. It may in fact yet turn out to be a blessing in disguise that it went in Lloyds favour. It's meant that we've tightened up our cases and know exactly what we have to do to prevent a recurrance.

 

If it comes up on Wednesday you need to tell them that its subject to an appeal.

 

Any questions just shout, and remember that its still very unlikely that you'll have to argue over the legalities of the charges. IMHO I still can't see them defending that part even after the Birmingham judgement. The above is just in case.

 

Gary

[Pen]

Hi Gary, both you and Gizmo, have been wonderful thank you both and everyone else who has supported and offered to come to court with me, you really are a wonderful bunch.

 

OK, I think I am ready, dozy me did not do a bundle for myself so I have been preparing one all day. I had only done 2 one for the courts and 1 for SC&M, hope no-one else makes the same mistake. I have had a PM from Elsinore and he has agreed to go along with me which is really great as although I was putting on a brave face I was really dreading it also he sounds really sweet. so thanks Elsinore and you Gary and Gizmo for finding him for me.

 

I have made a copy of all the questions Bankfodder states I may need to ask if there is a full hearing, I have written up all the arguments for CI but I am prepared to drop that if need be, I have also copied all your comments above to digest and take with me. I have included in the bundle one of the old statements, the one i sent you as this has the old T&Cs on the back. I suppose if I am asked to produce a current one I could always argue that I have requested a copy from Lloyd's and they have not complied with my request hence the Judgment for non compliance.

 

Should I mention my other trial in July for chargers or if it does get adjourned should I ask for both cases to be heard together and if they ask me for any information I have not got should I mention the Judgment.

 

Will Elsinor be able to speak at the trail in case I forget to mention anything, which I probably will

 

I have to call the court on Tuesday as the letter, the one you done for none compliance in relation to directions has gone before the Judge and I will find out what he has decided to do about it. Because it is so late in the day he may just agree that the hearing goes ahead. If the judge does postpone the hearing but SC&M makes a offer which does not include CI would it be better if i excepted the offer or wait for the new trail, I think I know what I would rather do.

 

 

 

Just to make sure I have this clear if the barrister for SC&M do turn up and still want to defend on the back of their win last week, I am to make ever effort to try and get the case adjourned due to their non compliance of directions.

 

If by some very strange chance they want to negotiate a reasonable offer and I am happy to except, could I negotiate that the pay the chargers for the next case in July now within this offer or do I have to leave that as a totally separate case. IE I will except on the basis that you pay them chargers as well as these what do you think. hmmm I know, wishful thinking at it's best.

 

I will keep you all informed on whats happening, i really cannot beleive I am so close and yet so far but i really do hope I don't have to attend. do you think SC&M read these posts

[Pen]

Hi Gary, sorry another problem. O/Hs Allocation questioner needed to be in today 20th May 2007 but was not sure what we were going to put in it. I will fax the court tomorrow and ask for more time. s...t I hate this bank

Pen

[GaryH]

I'll help you with that first thing in the morning. Don't worry about requesting more time, a day or two won't hurt.

 

Did you get my e-mail?

[Pen]

Great Thanks Gary, opps not looked at emails I will do that now

Pen.

[jshtr3]

Hi Pen, been watching your claim with interest. Just posting here so I don't forget to look on wednesday and to wish you the very best. If anyone deserves a win, you do;)

[darling1]

Good on you Pen, you are gonna do fine. I have just been catching up with your thread, you are a popular gal.....if good wishes make a win , then Lloyds had better watch out, I will be thinking of you all the time and keeping everything crossed for you on wednesday. Make sure you get on line ASAP and report your win, I will sit by the computer all day untill I hear!

Sending you big HUGS from Wiltshire, wish I lived nearer to you, I would have loved to come to court with you, but it sound like you are in capable hands, I shall expect to hear great news soon

Darling1 xxx

[Pen]

Sue, i wished you lived near too and gary and gizm and and and everyone whos offered, SC&M would not know what had hitting them if we turned up on masses. but i do appriecate the distance thing and also all your other commintmenst so please don't feel bad. because i do have what sounds like a very nice wonderful guy,who has agreed thanks to gary and Gizmo for finding him for me. I may not want to go home, naughty lol, but yes i am feeling more and more confident my court bundle also seems more confident becase it has grown from the last lot. Gary I did not get the email, so sorry I sent you a PM also i have misplaced the oxton letter and since it's mentioned in my witness statement i really should have one to hand so could you please email or pm me another cpoy, sorrt about that. hi jsht, nice to have you along, i am hoping against hope that I will have positive news on tuesday and it won't go to a hearing, but we can all dream. either way as soon as i hear i will post it on here 2 times have been given to chargers cases 10.30 and 11.30 so I will post as soon as i get back hopfull just after dinner.

now it's time for bed, i have done as much as i can tonight, good night everyone

Pen

[Cheryl Beal]

Goodnight Pen and sweet dreams xxx

 

After reading through your thread I feel so very close to your struggles! Get the buggers rattled!!!

[remus]

Yep I second that, all the best for wednesday pen, go get em;)

[GaryH]

Pen,

 

I sent the witness statement to the wrong e-mail address initially (doh!) - I resent it about 10 last night. Did you get it?

 

In any case its been substantially improved and tightened up by zootscoot now anyway. I'll send you the final version later.

 

What AQ is it? N149 or N150? I'll help you later and you can hand it in tomorrow - it'll be fine.

[Pen]

Hi Gary, glad it's not my email account playimg up then it does that now and again if someone sends me photos, thats a hint by the way as the compition is still on. the AQ is the 150,

cheers

Ps just checked email again no, no message from you