Makeing up hours after sick time

[pandhandj]

All,

 

I work for a Goverernment Department, but the team i work for doesnt work standard hours (it's not a 9 - 5 job.

 

My hours are based on an annualised contract were i do 2104 hours over the year, plus an extra 250 hrs. My hours aren't set, I normally work a 9.5 hr day (including 1hr lunch), but this can be changed at any time, basically if i have to do a 24 hr shift, then thats what i do. We also work at any time of the day, normally start at 0700, but this can be changed to any time of the day, as and when required. This is not regarded as a flexi-time contract, but it is accepted that if a do a double shift, i am then owed a shift as time in lieu, or part there of. We are allowed to have a running total of hours that is +/- 5% of my expected hours. As an example, for November this year, i am expected to do 197hrs +/- 5%. Three times a year the hours are reviewed and would be brought into line at these reviews, (i.e. make up hours or take time off to stay within the 5%)

 

During the summer, i was off ill for 11 weeks. Now that i have returned to work, I have been given a written warning for my attendance. My employer has stated that there is no problem with my work but just that I have had too many absences. I was fully compliant with departmental sick terms and OH during my illness.

 

I have just been informed that, a days sick is only worth 8.5 hrs, so i now owe the department 55 hours! My boss says that it is not a problem, as i am still within the -5%. However, If i now do a double shift, i am no longer entitiled to the time of in lieu, as it will just be taken off the 55hrs i owe.

 

With christmas looming and public hoildays/annual leave which i have booked, i have calculated that i will go beyond the -5% allowed in my hrs. The boss says he will deal with that, if it happens. (NB - a days leave is only worth 8.5hrs too, so if i take a day off, i owe 1 hr!)

 

Until a couple of yearsa ago, I was a union member, but I (and many others) left afterthier handling of another attendance issue a couple of years ago. So i dont have any faith in the Unions ability to advise with this issue.

 

If anyone could give any opinion on this situation, it would be greatly appreciated. Or conversley, will i just have to bight the bullet and make up the 55 hrs

 

thanks in advance,

 

paul

[mariefab]

Do you have a copy of the policy that purports to permit your employer to do this?

 

If so, please post it here because I'd love to see how a Government department could justify that taking the statutory minimum paid holiday entitlement would result in a full time employee owing their employer 28 hours work!

[pandhandj]

Marie,

 

i have to do 2354 hrs per year (2104 + 250 extra). I can determine when i do them myself, with managements agreement. I cant do 15hr shifts for 8 weeks then take a week of however. This is why i normally work 9.5hrs per day. 47 weeks per year, 5 days a week, 9.5hrs a day + leave/public holidays is roughly equal to 2354 hrs.

 

thats how they get round the leave sceneraio. But as for the sick leave, its a new one on me, not been sick before! Not sure where i stand. I'm trying to get a copy of my terms & conditions, but it is a slow process...

[mariefab]

How long have you worked there?

 

Don't you have any documents relating to the terms and conditions of your employment?

Contract, statement of particulars, offer letter, handbook, anything?

[pandhandj]

How long have you worked there?

 

Don't you have any documents relating to the terms and conditions of your employment?

Contract, statement of particulars, offer letter, handbook, anything?

 

9.5 yrs in total, got transferred to this team in jan this year (internal transfer), but still an extant civil servant. My old paperwork is long gone, I'm trying to get a current contract/terms & conditions, as we speak. This contract is for a small team of people, 99% of people in this dept work 9 -5.

[foodandbeverage]

How and why do you owe 55 hours?

[pandhandj]

How and why do you owe 55 hours?

 

I was off sick for 55 days in total. I need to do 9.5 hrs per day (on average). I am told that i can only claim 8.5 hrs sick per day, therefore I owe 55 hrs...

[foodandbeverage]

Pardon my lack of understanding.

 

Do you get paid for the 9.5 hours (that include the one hour lunch)?

[pandhandj]

Pardon my lack of understanding.

 

Do you get paid for the 9.5 hours (that include the one hour lunch)?

 

Yes

[foodandbeverage]

Are you sure of that?

 

How many days holiday are you entitled to (including bank holidays)?

 

What is 250 hours for?

Edited November 17, 2013 by foodandbeverage

[Surfer01]

Not really into employment issues, but a 9.5 hr day equates to 47.5 hours per week or 2470 hrs per annum. I think something is wrong somewhere as my wife worked annualised hours and never had any issues when she went off sick for a few months and then returned to work. She was still entitled to the mandatory holidays which are by law.

[pandhandj]

All, I do 47.5 hrs/week, I get 5 weeks leave + public holidays. The 250 hrs is a bank of hrs the dept buys from us each year, basically so we can work longer when they require us to. To make up these hrs, I do an extra hr per day to make theses hours up over the year. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

To expand a bit - I get my basic salary, I also get an allowance (percentage of salary), this made up from the 250 extra hrs, being on call, weekend work, shift work, unsocial hrs, etc

Edited November 17, 2013 by pandhandj

[Emmzzi]

Well that makes perfect sense then. You have been paid for your normal hours. You have not been paid for the 250 "floating" hours which they are trying to use exactly as they are intended to be - extra hours as and when. Just because you have fallen into a habit of an hour a day does not mean that is what your contract says they are to be used for. I'd say you do indeed need to make the 55 hours up.

[pandhandj]

Well that makes perfect sense then. You have been paid for your normal hours. You have not been paid for the 250 "floating" hours which they are trying to use exactly as they are intended to be - extra hours as and when. Just because you have fallen into a habit of an hour a day does not mean that is what your contract says they are to be used for. I'd say you do indeed need to make the 55 hours up.

 

Emmzzi, I see what you are saying, but...

 

The hours are not exactly "as and when". The hours should be kept within +/- 5%. At the end of each quarter, I would be expected to make up hrs or take time off.

 

EDIT - just to clarify, its not that I have fallen into the habit of doing 9.5 hrs per day, I am expected to do 9.5 per day.

Edited November 17, 2013 by pandhandj

[Emmzzi]

you asked for opinion. mine is that's it's legit and you'd best get bullet biting.

[pandhandj]

you asked for opinion. mine is that's it's legit and you'd best get bullet biting.

 

Emmzzi, your opinion is welcomed, thanks for taking the time to reply. I was merely trying to further explain the situation.

 

Once again, thank you.

 

If anyone else would like to contribute, it would be appreciated too.

[foodandbeverage]

Okay, so the 250 hours is irrelevant in the sense that you are not really paid for those hours - its just another way of getting you to work extra hours and not get paid for it. By the way, are you paid on the number of actual hours worked each week/month?

 

I still think something is amiss - are you absolutely certain that you get paid for the lunch hour?

 

Your standard hours cannot be 9.5 whilst they claim only 8.5 hours qualify for sick leave. You will need to check your contract and sickness policy.

 

I do not believe that you "owe" hours.

[pandhandj]

Foodandbeverage,

 

sorry, I dont think i am explaining myself very well.

 

I do get paid for luch and i also get paid for the extra 250 hrs. Each month i get he same amount of pay, doesnt matter what hrs i do, we do not get paid over time. If i do too many hrs one month i can take time in lieu the next month (or day, or week, etc), conversley, if i am under one month (or day or week), i am expected to make it up the next. The average should be, at work for 9.5 hrs per day.

[foodandbeverage]

Okay, does it state in your contract that you get paid for the lunch hour? Sorry if I keep on asking the same question again and again.

 

If the standard number of hours you work are 9.5 I don't understand how they can claim 8.5 hours as standard. If you take a day off, are you paid for 8.5 or 9.5 hours?

 

Again, find out what the sickness policy is.

 

Speak to your colleagues and see if the same thing happened to them.

[pandhandj]

Well,

 

been trawling through the guidance and it appears I am only entitled to 8.5 hrs credit for any type of absence - bugger!

 

It would appear that since I am not on a set work pattern and dont have any set hrs, I am only entitled to the 8.5 hrs.

 

But since beginning this contract in April year, I have been expected to work 9.5 hrs/day. Could i not then argue that in fact i do have a set attendance pattern, although it is to some extent at my own discretion?

Edited November 18, 2013 by pandhandj

[foodandbeverage]

What happened before April? Who set you the 9.5 hours you are supposed to work each day?

 

The 9.5 hours are based on your average hours. The 8.5 hours are based on the company's average hours per day.

 

Before you start disputing working extra 55 hours you need to ascertain the full facts. Have you spoken to your colleagues as to what happened to them when they were off sick?

[pandhandj]

All,

 

spoke with boss about this again, yesterday. I will not have to make up the 55 hrs now, as it has been icluded in the time i was off sick.

 

Thanks to all for thier input, even Emmzzi!

[foodandbeverage]

That's great!

 

What made them change their mind?