Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

[applecart]

Applecart's defence

 

[ATTACH]46750[/ATTACH]

 

 

Thanks you - Much appreciated.......

 

If any one who views the cocument spots any obvious errors....please shout up.....we do have maybe a couple of days or so in which we can use to 'tweek' it if need be........

 

Cheers : )

 

Apple

[UNRAM]

Thanks you - Much appreciated.......

 

If any one who views the cocument spots any obvious errors....please shout up.....we do have maybe a couple of days or so in which we can use to 'tweek' it if need be........

 

Cheers : )

 

Apple

 

Certainly. I believe that the cocument may have been incorrectly labelled.

[applecart]

Site team,

Is it ow possible for apple if they wish to have some PM now due to the matters at hand and as I do not think it is in the rules to give the other side your views and arguments before any hearings.

off course any other matters or help needed would be posted up on the thread.

As you have seen this is now a serious thread.

 

Hi Is It Me

 

This is not a request that you or I should hold our breath over.......

 

But, look at it this way........think about the response your friend got from the Lender.......it appears to me that not even Lenders (or at least their staff members that is) seem to know what their Bosses are up to.......

 

Yet it is those staff members who are put on the front line......looking to defend the impossible........

 

That's why, you will find they visit this thread regardless..... How else are they going to know about the issues the Company they work for have presented as a blight on the economy??

 

There is your friends case, it will be heard early next year.......There is still much to do.....the ball is rolling.....there is nothing that can be done now to stop it......

 

All Lenders and All Borrowers will know what the position is.......

 

Is the Unilateral Deed valid?

 

We say NO - They say YES.......

 

Court proceedings to do with possession claims are being halted.......Borrowers are asking more questions....and not afraid to do so.....

 

This is down to you and your friend......your friend kindly allowed us all to look into his/her world......and in doing so, you friend remains in his/her home.....when 6 months ago.......well???

 

So, yes......Thanks to you and your friend......others can see those 'green roots' that the government were on about many months ago......

 

Question is.....will the 'root' remain a 'root'......or prosper and grow into something meaningful?????

 

 

Apple

[applecart]

Certainly. I believe that the cocument may have been incorrectly labelled.

 

Are you having a 'dig'........: )

 

ok......'document'....... come on now I can type at more than 100 wpm..... I'm bound to make mistakes - (I know, I know...excuses, excuses...)

 

Have you had a look at the document......anything we need to look at again do you think??

 

Apple

[UNRAM]

Are you having a 'dig'........: )

 

ok......'document'....... come on now I can type at more than 100 wpm..... I'm bound to make mistakes - (I know, I know...excuses, excuses...)

 

Have you had a look at the document......anything we need to look at again do you think??

 

Apple

not a dig...more of a poke... couldn't resist... i have looked at the document it looks sound... i will read and re-read over the weekend...

[alisono]

Thanks you - Much appreciated.......

 

If any one who views the cocument spots any obvious errors....please shout up.....we do have maybe a couple of days or so in which we can use to 'tweek' it if need be........

 

Cheers : )

 

Apple

 

 

Fabulous thank you, sorry been offline today. I will download and post back.

 

Thanks again this really helping us and I have not enough words to thank you for your time and help.

 

Also to other posters and without question IS IT ME ;-)

[p.j]

Thanks you - Much appreciated.......

 

If any one who views the cocument spots any obvious errors....please shout up.....we do have maybe a couple of days or so in which we can use to 'tweek' it if need be........

 

Cheers : )

 

Apple

 

hi apple can i use the same defence as alisono.

 

p.j

[TimetogoRAM]

hi apple can i use the same defence as alisono.

 

p.j

 

Hi pj, providing that Apple is ok with you submitting a similar defence, if you have a look at the document you may need to omit points 15 16 19 20 & 21 unless any of these fit your circumstances.

 

I for one would feel extremely confident with this defence document alisono. Especially with point 19!

 

Just to let you know my application has gone into the chamber so look forward to updating you further with their response. Thanks to Apple, UNRAM and is it me for this thread!

[p.j]

Hi pj, providing that Apple is ok with you submitting a similar defence, if you have a look at the document you may need to omit points 15 16 19 20 & 21 unless any of these fit your circumstances.

 

I for one would feel extremely confident with this defence document alisono. Especially with point 19!

 

 

 

 

Just to let you know my application has gone into the chamber so look forward to updating you further with their response. Thanks to Apple, UNRAM and is it me for this thread!

 

hi TimetogoRAM yeah i think it mite be ok to use it i got my application in and got a reply saying they will be contacting me in due course.

 

p.j

[TimetogoRAM]

That's good pj. Who is your lender again? When did u submit your application? Did the chamber give u any indication of a hearing?

[p.j]

That's good pj. Who is your lender again? When did u submit your application? Did the chamber give u any indication of a hearing?

 

my lender is preferred timetogoram i submitted my application on the 25th sept it just says they acknowledge receipt of my letter the contents have been noted you will be contacted in due course where appropriate and thats from the adjudicator ...pj

[applecart]

It's a wee bit quiet on here?

 

Is this the quiet before the storm?

 

Apple

[applecart]

Fabulous thank you, sorry been offline today. I will download and post back.

 

Thanks again this really helping us and I have not enough words to thank you for your time and help.

 

Also to other posters and without question IS IT ME ;-)

 

No problem : )

 

I'm sure Is It Me and his friend are happy to know that they are not alone in their battle to keep the roof over their head.

 

Just check it through, make sure that I haven't omitted anything, check through and familiarise yourself with any references made to legislation that is included in the 'defence'....just to be sure you do not get 'tripped' up at the hearing...ok?

 

Get back to us and let us know how you get on?

 

Apple

[applecart]

hi apple can i use the same defence as alisono.

 

p.j

 

Yes, but as TimetogoRam has pointed out....you will need to make sure that only those paragraphs that apply to your circumstances are included......no good sending in a defence that is clearly drawn up for someone else's circumstances if yours are not exactly the same......It is not a 'template' in that regard...so, please be mindful : )

 

The letter you sent, will get the same response as Allisono's.....that's to say: we want it to be enough to cause the Judge to 'think' before he grants a possession......and offer you the opportunity to put in a properly drafted Defence......

 

Take note of what Is It Me said....if the Judge intends to move the case forward without considering your letter....your Defence.... your application to the Property Chamber....then that would not be fair......it is only 'just' that he/she adjourns the proceedings......or put the lender to 'strict proof' to evidence that it has 'executed' the deed......which it won't be able to....because the evidence shows that they haven't done so.....

 

Once the Defence goes in....

 

The lender has opportunity to 'reply to Defence'.......

 

I envisage that your lender will make a similar plea as Is It Me's friends lender....to say - your signature is enough....they relied that you are bound by your signature to pay them or give them the property.....it is a 'mortgage' (a 'mortgage' is the disposal of the whole estate - even though you had no statutory power to dispose of the whole estate - they will still push to say that you did or that they 'relied' that you had such a statutory power.....so don't get 'tripped' up)

 

These are all matters put before the Chamber......

 

We are looking to the Chamber to say one way or the other - is the Deed valid?

 

We know that the RRO says NO......not when reliance is placed on sight of the borrowers signature alone......

 

There is NO DEFENCE

 

If you have any other concerns.....shout up..... ok?

 

Apple

[applecart]

Hi pj, providing that Apple is ok with you submitting a similar defence, if you have a look at the document you may need to omit points 15 16 19 20 & 21 unless any of these fit your circumstances.

 

I for one would feel extremely confident with this defence document alisono. Especially with point 19!

 

Just to let you know my application has gone into the chamber so look forward to updating you further with their response. Thanks to Apple, UNRAM and is it me for this thread!

 

Thanks for this TimetogoRam

 

Yes, please keep us up-dated.......we want to see how the chamber deals with individual applications put to them.....

 

From there...like in Is It Me's case.....at first instance they looked to 'strike it out'.......we managed to turn it around.....we would not have been able to do that unless Is It Me let us know about the issue......

 

So..... keep us informed.....we can't help if we don't know what's going on : )

 

Apple

[UNRAM]

I envisage that your lender will make a similar plea as Is It Me's friends lender....to say - your signature is enough....they relied that you are bound by your signature to pay them or give them the property.....it is a 'mortgage' (a 'mortgage' is the disposal of the whole estate - even though you had no statutory power to dispose of the whole estate - they will still push to say that you did or that they 'relied' that you had such a statutory power.....so don't get 'tripped' up)

Apple

How can a lender say they relied on the borrower having the statutory power? If its not the case then surely that was their mistake? Don't they have a responsibility to understand the law in force at the time? What's their actual defense here?

[applecart]

How can a lender say they relied on the borrower having the statutory power? If its not the case then surely that was their mistake? Don't they have a responsibility to understand the law in force at the time? What's their actual defense here?

 

Hi UNRAM

 

They can and they clearly do and have done so in Is It Me's friends case.

 

The reliance is misguided.....they are deemed to know the law.....

 

I don't think they made a 'mistake'...... I think they knew exactly what they were doing.........

 

It is also clear that the legislator realised this as well......hence the RRO 2005

 

so, for any lender who was or is found to be carrying out 'certain activies' after that order came into force......is deemed to know that their certain activities will be subjected to the RRO

 

The RRO was not made retrospective......so, in a way.....the legislator said to lenders ...."look MR Lender - we know what you have done... You know and we know....it is wrong.....we are not going to punish you for that per se.....but ..... once this legislation comes in......if you are found to be continuing those certain activities....understand this......when you are found out...... you will be called to account..... so on your own head will fall the implications of this order....."

 

Whether they did so by 'mistake' or 'intent'........will fall on.... a decision that finds a 'lack of proper care' ...... or.......a question of 'fraud'??

 

They have NO DEFENCE......they should have executed the deed...

 

Apple

[p.j]

Yes, but as TimetogoRam has pointed out....you will need to make sure that only those paragraphs that apply to your circumstances are included......no good sending in a defence that is clearly drawn up for someone else's circumstances if yours are not exactly the same......It is not a 'template' in that regard...so, please be mindful : )

 

The letter you sent, will get the same response as Allisono's.....that's to say: we want it to be enough to cause the Judge to 'think' before he grants a possession......and offer you the opportunity to put in a properly drafted Defence......

 

Take note of what Is It Me said....if the Judge intends to move the case forward without considering your letter....your Defence.... your application to the Property Chamber....then that would not be fair......it is only 'just' that he/she adjourns the proceedings......or put the lender to 'strict proof' to evidence that it has 'executed' the deed......which it won't be able to....because the evidence shows that they haven't done so.....

 

Once the Defence goes in....

 

The lender has opportunity to 'reply to Defence'.......

 

I envisage that your lender will make a similar plea as Is It Me's friends lender....to say - your signature is enough....they relied that you are bound by your signature to pay them or give them the property.....it is a 'mortgage' (a 'mortgage' is the disposal of the whole estate - even though you had no statutory power to dispose of the whole estate - they will still push to say that you did or that they 'relied' that you had such a statutory power.....so don't get 'tripped' up)

 

These are all matters put before the Chamber......

 

We are looking to the Chamber to say one way or the other - is the Deed valid?

 

We know that the RRO says NO......not when reliance is placed on sight of the borrowers signature alone......

 

There is NO DEFENCE

 

If you have any other concerns.....shout up..... ok?

 

Apple

 

 

hi applecart hope all is well...points 15 16 19 20 21 does not apply to my circumstances but is the same situation regarding deeds.

so only part of the defence for alisono can be used.

 

i did get terms and conditions with my deed sent by HMLR .

[UNRAM]

If determination is made in the lender's favour what is the evidence that a deed is a "specialty contract" requiring a signature?

 

What exactly does solemn form mean?

[applecart]

hi applecart hope all is well...points 15 16 19 20 21 does not apply to my circumstances but is the same situation regarding deeds.

so only part of the defence for alisono can be used.

 

i did get terms and conditions with my deed sent by HMLR .

 

Thanks P.J

 

Most borrowers appear to be only receiving copies of the Deed itself without T'& C's attached (maybe an oversight by HMLR...who's to say)

 

The bottom line is - if the deed is not executed by Preferred....then it is void.....and so are the t's and c's that accompanied it.

 

I presume that the t's and c's provide no space for signature by either you or preferred - as they wrongly relied that your signature alone would be enough to secure and bind you to those t's & c's........ooooopppssss!!!..... RRO says they should have executed the Deed....

 

Just make sure that you amend the 'Defence' to suit YOU and YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES....ok?

 

Hope this helps?

 

Apple

[applecart]

If determination is made in the lender's favour what is the evidence that a deed is a "specialty contract" requiring a signature?

 

To determine in the lenders favor would be to circumvent the RRO.....you cannot circumvent the LAW....not even if you are the first tier tribunal of the Property Chamber......

 

For any legal transaction to be legally binding it must be signed by the parties to it.....so that it can be enforced in a court of law.....if it is not then it is un-enforceable.....(that is not to say that the money is not due...it is to say that neither party can ask the court to enforce it)......All deeds are "speciality contracts".....they are distinguished from "simple contracts" in that with a deed;...... the limitation period is extended to 12 years .....and with a 'simple contract' the limit is 6 yrs ......further in relation to land transactions.....the LPA 1925 section 52 (1) says it MUST be a Deed or it is VOID...........so, there is no avoiding that the Deed is intended to create legal relations...and that it must meet the statutory formalities that relate to it.....with a 'simple contract'......any Director of the Lender or Agent acting on their behalf can sign a 'simple contract'...as I understand it - it must still comply and meet LPMPA 1989 section 2 when it relates to a land transaction to avoid the Statute of Frauds Part iv...... However, with a 'speciality contract'/deed.....the formalities are set out in statute analogous as we know in the Companies Act 2006...LPA 1925 section 74 (1) (5) and the LPMPA 1989 section 1 - it too must avoid the statute of Frauds Act Part iv on the fact that it relates to a land transaction....

 

What exactly does solemn form mean?

 

"Solemn form" simply relates to the attestation (witness) of the signature of the Borrower and attestation (witness) of the lenders execution ....for a "simple contract"....neither party need worry about attestation.......In other words.... For a Deed.....the requirement is that the parties to it (Lender and Borrower) must individually ensure that when they sign/execute...that that signature or execution is witnessed.....

 

Hope this helps?

 

Apple

 

 

 

[p.j]

Thanks P.J

 

Most borrowers appear to be only receiving copies of the Deed itself without T'& C's attached (maybe an oversight by HMLR...who's to say)

 

The bottom line is - if the deed is not executed by Preferred....then it is void.....and so are the t's and c's that accompanied it.

 

I presume that the t's and c's provide no space for signature by either you or preferred - as they wrongly relied that your signature alone would be enough to secure and bind you to those t's & c's........ooooopppssss!!!..... RRO says they should have executed the Deed....

 

Just make sure that you amend the 'Defence' to suit YOU and YOUR CIRCUMSTANCES....ok?

 

Hope this helps?

 

Apple

 

hi apple no theres no signature of lender in sight no room in the t and c's. just a deed with my sig only on it..

 

ok i shall amend it to my circumstances..am i putting this in before court or use at court..

 

pj

[applecart]

hi apple no theres no signature of lender in sight no room in the t and c's. just a deed with my sig only on it..

 

ok i shall amend it to my circumstances..am i putting this in before court or use at court..

 

pj

 

When you amend the 'Defence'.... you will send it into court....you will also need to send a copy to the Lender...so they know that you are 'defending' the claim

 

(litigants have been known to hand in a defence on the day of the hearing....but best to avoid that if and where you can....although; you will be open to the Lender handing you a 'reply to defence' on the day of the hearing....they should not do this...but they do....if it happens to you.....make sure to tell the Judge that you have not had time to look at it or respond appropriately and to sit outside for 5 minutes to do so...would not be fair to you as a litigant in person.....they do try all sorts in the courts I assure you...so make sure that if it does happen you seek an adjournment on that ground in itself...ok)

 

You will be relying on the defence in court as well.....it is your defence.....you must keep a copy for yourself

 

so that's ...

 

a copy of your defence kept by you for you to take to the hearing with you.

 

a copy of the same defence to the Lender

 

and a copy of the same defence sent into court - probably best to take it into court if you can...and get them to stamp your copy as proof that they have received a copy for the Judge (yep...be mindful; sometimes court staff will try to get you to leave all copies with them....and they do go missing....so be careful.... leave them with a copy....get them to stamp it as received....get them to stamp your copy also.....)

 

Hope this helps?

 

Apple

[UNRAM]

"Solemn form" simply relates to the attestation (witness) of the signature of the Borrower and attestation (witness) of the lenders execution ....for a "simple contract"....neither party need worry about attestation.......In other words.... For a Deed.....the requirement is that the parties to it (Lender and Borrower) must individually ensure that when they sign/execute...that that signature or execution is witnessed.....

 

What is your source for information this please?

[applecart]

What is your source for information this please?

 

Hi UNRAM

 

You may re-call that I referred you to the case of "HILMI".......that is where I have been able to source the information....

 

See.....The Law Commissions Consultation Paper on the Execution of Deeds and Documents by or on behalf of Bodies Corporate, Consultation Paper 143 (1996), para 2.2 and 2.3

 

It was referred to by the Judge in deciding the case in HILMI & Associates Ltd v 20 PEMBRIDGE VILLAS FREEHOLD LIMITED [2010] EWCA Civ 314 at para 29

 

Hope this helps?

 

Apple