Repossession questioned by deeds not being signed

[applecart]

Hi Site Team

 

I have on two separate occasions pressed the 'triangle' to alert you to my intent to send up the defence for Allisono.

 

So far, no one has managed to get back to me.

 

Can a member of the site team advise the reason for the delay please?

 

Cheers

 

Apple

[ims21]

Is there any reason why this defence cannot be posted on the open forum?

[applecart]

Is there any reason why this defence cannot be posted on the open forum?

 

Trust me, I have no issue with posting anything I have to say on the open forum..... I just thought it would be fair to Allisono and P.J to give them the opportunity to use it BEFORE it is put on the open forum....

 

Likewise, when it is posted up on the forum......I cannot lay it out in a 'ready' state.....it always looks totally different...

 

If I send it to you guys......so that the format remains the same...then it is easier for anyone to see the layout and the content much clearer....

 

But it's up to you guys...let me know what you prefer?

 

 

Apple

[ims21]

You can create a Word document and post that or create a PDF and post either as an attachment.

 

Layout won't then be affected and the document may then be of benefit to others.

[pebb1e]

Hi applecart,

 

What are your thoughts on a deed which has no borrowers signature, obsolete mortgage number, and address of the land and not the property that is now erected on it?

 

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

[applecart]

I've just caught up we have already discussed this and from that discussion I made a request for an amendment for which I have a receipt from the PC. I made telephone inquiries regarding amendments and they advised to email them with assurance that amendments would be considered by their legal team. My email is as follows (after removal of personal info). It looks as though they may have overlooked the amendment or that processing the document did not catch up. Either way I will email them again and notify them of the apparent discrepancy (for which I will receive another receipt). This amendment includes the omissions from my original application.

 

 

To whom it may concern,

I called today to discuss making amendment to my recent application regarding property title [title number removed] submitted 03/09/2013 and acknowledged by [name removed]. Today I spoke with [name removed] by telephone who advised I submit a written request for your consideration.I request an amendment to the original Remedy as I was not aware at the time of submitting the application that it was within the Chamber's jurisdiction pursuant to paragraph 1 (b) of Schedule 8 LRA 2002 to indemnify for loss by reason of a mistake whose correction would involve rectification of the register.

 

In light of this I wish to amend my original remedy to:

 

"i. To set aside NRAM's purported mortgage deed as used to grant and register a charge on the property pursuant to section 108 (2) LRA 2002 ii. Order the removal of the charge created in (i) from the property title register . The applicant also seeks remedy by way of an order within the provisions of the Chamber's jurisdiction pursuant to section 108 (2)(a) LRA 2002 and to paragraph 5 (a) of Schedule 4 to the LRA 2002 subject to the application satisfying the additional requirements set out in paragraph 6 (2) of schedule 4 to the LRA 2002 for indemnity and consequential damages for all money claimed by the respondent to which it was not entitled by law from the date of the first mortgage payment up to and any including proceeds from sale of the property if a sale should precede the Tribunal's determination and disposal of the case. Due to the extended period of time it has taken the applicant to find a suitable purchaser it is requested that no action is taken (or permitted by the respondent) that may obstruct normal conveyancing of the property and which may cause detriment to the applicant, and it is requested that any sale is enabled to proceed normally and indemnity be applied retrospectively if a determination is made in favor of the applicant and the Chamber deems it appropriate".

 

Yours sincerely,

 

UNRAM

 

Hi UNRAM

 

You truly must check through anything that is posted up - think it through before you gobble the info together and put it together in the way you have here.......I don't mean to offend Mate...

 

All you had to say at best in part 4 was:

 

The applicant seeks remedy by way of an order within the Chamber's jurisdiction pursuant to section 108 (2)(a) LRA 2002 to set aside the deed;

and that subject to that an order to HMLR to rectify the register pursuant to paragraph 5 (a) of Schedule 4 to the LRA 2002 subject to the application satisfying the additional requirements set out in paragraph 6 (2) of schedule 4 to the LRA 2002 with a further order pursuant to schedule 8 if applicable.

 

That's it.....

 

I hope this is of use to you....

 

You will need to check with the Chamber that you have time to make yet another amendment.

 

Show some respect for the Chamber Team.....a 'Thank you for your kind assistance at this time'.......does not go amiss......

 

Apple

[applecart]

Hi applecart,

 

What are your thoughts on a deed which has no borrowers signature, obsolete mortgage number, and address of the land and not the property that is now erected on it?

 

Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

 

huh?

 

You will need to break that down for me a whole lot more......

 

Is/was the Land registered or un-registered before the property was erected on the land

 

Who does/did the land belong to prior to the property being erected

 

Is it a boundary dispute?

 

Is there a lender involved?

 

etc.etc......

 

 

Without more Pebb1e...it would be unfair of me to comment further.....

 

Apple

[honeybee13]

Pebb1e has their own thread on this forum, apple.

 

Here's a link in case you feel like having a look.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?404597-Repossession-hearing-on-3-10-any-advice-%282-Viewing%29-nbsp

 

HB

[p.j]

Is there any reason why this defence cannot be posted on the open forum?

 

hi ims21 i for one would like to keep it as private as possible on the defence side of things am sure a few other would too i don't see a problem in that?giving the enemy our amo is not what i want and i am very grateful for the help from apple and hi is it me.help for others in this situation could receive it the same way me and alisono will so not really an issue if its needed the main objectives as what to do are posted anyway....

just saying . p.j

 

and may i just add without coming across CAG i would of been stuffed its a great site for info...

 

p.j

Edited October 3, 2013 by p.j
add something

[TimetogoRAM]

Had a few pages to catch up on here.. just wish p.j and alisono all the best with their next hearing. Just remember you have won round one. Any adjournment is a win in that round I'd say! The more you stall them, the more confident you will get because you will get the knowledge you need!

 

I am about to send my application to the chamber and have seen a couple of drafts. Obviously I have adapted it to suit my case. Would you say the more information the better at this stage or should any defence be held back as ammunition if you get my reasoning?

[p.j]

Had a few pages to catch up on here.. just wish p.j and alisono all the best with their next hearing. Just remember you have won round one. Any adjournment is a win in that round I'd say! The more you stall them, the more confident you will get because you will get the knowledge you need!

 

I am about to send my application to the chamber and have seen a couple of drafts. Obviously I have adapted it to suit my case. Would you say the more information the better at this stage or should any defence be held back as ammunition if you get my reasoning?

 

hi timetogoram hope everything goes well for you too thank you. i am not saying to withhold it from everyone just saying not to let the other side see whats going on with the fight your welcome to whatever apple post up as defence tweaked for your needs was just saying me personally would just like a little privacy on it but not with holding info for others its not my place to say what can and cannot be put up was just saying....

 

p.j

[TimetogoRAM]

You do right pj cos it's obvious lenders & their solicitors do view these sites so you don't want to give them an inch.

It's alright for the lawyers to seek their 'advice' and 'information' off the 'internet' as they put it in is it me's case but we as 'lowly' borrowers can't do the same. We all need to remember for them it's their job, for us it's our livelihoods. I know which will prevail cos you automatically care more about your livelihood!

[p.j]

You do right pj cos it's obvious lenders & their solicitors do view these sites so you don't want to give them an inch.

It's alright for the lawyers to seek their 'advice' and 'information' off the 'internet' as they put it in is it me's case but we as 'lowly' borrowers can't do the same. We all need to remember for them it's their job, for us it's our livelihoods. I know which will prevail cos you automatically care more about your livelihood!

 

exactly Timetogoram my lively hood i am not in a major situation where i cannot pay them like some are my situation arose to there illegal charges.thats another story. but until i came to this site i was blind to the goings on with these people and if this is a hard kick in there teeth then i will do all i can to make that happen now i know and it looks like it may happen thanks to those helping in the fight....p.j

Edited October 3, 2013 by p.j
spelling

[applecart]

Hi ims21

 

I do not have the 'attach' facility I'm afraid

 

Apple

[ims21]

When did you last look?

[applecart]

When did you last look?

 

Just before I posted the issue up to you.

 

Apple

[ims21]

Just before I posted the issue up to you.

 

Apple

 

Please try now as I have changed some settings for you

[applecart]

I have access to ...'insert link'......, insert email link....., insert image,..... insert video,...... wrap,

 

Nothing to 'attach'.......

 

I would really like to get the info on....so, if you are unable to assist...say by this afternoon....to save further delay....I'll just have to post it up on the thread....(or, if you send me an email addres for a site team member, I can send it as is....without losing any of the formatting).....................it's only about 4 pages long....

 

Apple

[UNRAM]

If the Property Chamber intends to determine this as a class action in December or January would there be any merit in creating a shorter application that references the statute without the full legal background? It is clear this is already recognized and established for judges to be accepting applications. If the Property Chamber intend to make a determination based on principle can some details be omitted? e.g. securitisation questions. The level of detail and understanding required of the application may be a barrier to many. The PC are obviously going to recognize and group new applications as they arrive. The initial applications 'opened the door' - can we now make it any easier for others to walk through?

Edited October 4, 2013 by UNRAM

[ims21]

I have access to ...'insert link'......, insert email link....., insert image,..... insert video,...... wrap,

 

Nothing to 'attach'.......

 

I would really like to get the info on....so, if you are unable to assist...say by this afternoon....to save further delay....I'll just have to post it up on the thread....(or, if you send me an email addres for a site team member, I can send it as is....without losing any of the formatting).....................it's only about 4 pages long....

 

Apple

 

Use the "Go Advanced" button to reply to a message and then scroll down to "Manage Attachments". You can then upload Word Documents or a PDF and insert the attachment.

 

If you cannot see a "Go advanced" button or the "Manage Attachments" button I will have a look at the settings for you again.

[applecart]

If the Property Chamber intends to determine this as a class action in December or January would there be any merit in creating a shorter application that references the statute without the full legal background? It is clear this is already recognized and established for judges to be accepting applications. If the Property Chamber intend to make a determination based on principle can some details be omitted? e.g. securitisation questions. The level of detail and understanding required of the application may be a barrier to many. The PC are obviously going to recognize and group new applications as they arrive. The initial applications 'opened the door' - can we now make it any easier for others to walk through?

 

Hi UNRAM

 

I have been thinking along the same lines....but like I say only 'thinking'......

 

Before I forget.... UNRAM....look at Rule 40 of the Tribunal Rules..... this is the 'rule' that I realise is the 'missing' link between making a request for the Chamber to set aside a deed and getting the Registrar to act on the Chambers 'direction' to 'alter' the register......

 

Now back to your post....

 

Is It Me's Friends case as far as I understand it....will possibly be 'pooled' together (no pun intended).... with each and every other application that the Chamber receive that is identical to the draft written representation.....

 

I then envisage that applications that are similar to yours will then be pooled together....and so on and so on...

 

I think it would be un-fair for the Chamber to pool applications such as your own with Is It Me's friend.....and make a 'sweeping decision'......across the board....because although it cannot be denied that there IS a common theme in relation to the underlying issue........BEING THE LENDER HAS NOT EXECUTED THE DEED.....each applicant surely must have the right and may want a determination based on their own circumstances...that's party to the European Convention on Human Rights......

 

I agree.... the door is open.....

 

but ......

 

my gut feeling is that we do run the risk of the door being 'closed' in one swoooopppp!!

 

That door Closing against Borrowers could mean we see a decision where they limit the amount of compensation to All Borrowers affected......we could see that door closing to say....no limit.....we could see that door close to say..... All Borrowers are wrong (even though we know we are right)......

 

So, until we know which way the Chamber decide, we can not truly frame an appeal or make further representations until the outcome of the cases that it has before it......ad how it takes into account the Human Rights of both the Lender and the Borrower.......But, like I say.....and many others have said too.....why did the Lender not just sign the Deed??.....

 

All of this could have been avoided......they have left a gaping hole that the Chamber now has the task of fixing.....

 

If only they had signed the deed : (

 

Apple

[applecart]

Got it - However the 4 page document exceeds my 'quota'

 

Apple

[UNRAM]

I anticipate that there will be scope for individual appeals if there are any conflicts arising from grouping cases together. As you have said before the borrower can't be 'wrong' if we are merely standing by the legislators intent. For the benefit of other readers here is the "missing link"...

The Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal) (Property Chamber) Rules 2013

Requirements directed to the registrar

40. (1) The Tribunal must send written notice to the registrar of any direction which requires the registrar to take action.

 

(2) Where the Tribunal has made a decision, that decision may include a direction to the registrar to—

(a) give effect to the original application in whole or in part as if the objection to that original application had not been made; or

(b) cancel the original application in whole or in part.

 

(3) A direction to the registrar under paragraph (2) must be in writing, must be sent or delivered to the registrar and may include—

(a) a condition that a specified entry be made on the register of any title affected; or

(b)a direction to reject any future application of a specified kind by a named party to the proceedings—

(i)unconditionally; or

(ii)unless that party satisfies specified conditions.

Edited October 4, 2013 by UNRAM

[applecart]

Thanks UNRAM

 

It was just something that 'niggled' at me.... you know.....I'm conscious that there are going to be many other scenarios.....one's that we haven't even dreamt of yet.......look at Pebb1e post......who would have thought that such a situation was possible....??

 

Anyway.....we move onward and upward.......The Door is OPEN.....The RRO is in the MIX........No Other case law has had to consider it.....so....should be interesting......

 

Apple

[ims21]

Applecart's defence

 

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