Help Needed Please Congestion Charge!

[Carloblanco]

Hi,

 

At a critical stage now with a hand delivered letter from Martson Baliffs who now are wanting £467.04 for this £10 Congestion charge.

 

Thing is i live in Cornwall and was rushed up to St Tommys hospital in London for an emergency precedure that my local hospital didnt want to do. My Partner drove myself up in my car as i was not in any fit state to do so. TFL spotted my car on westminster bridge and proceeded to send me a bill for £60 (i think, partner dealt with it). Before this bill came through i was completely unaware of how/why where etc you pay for the charge or indeed where the congestion charges applied, i wrote to them about this and explained my situation and felt it fair that i pay the the £12 for the next day fee for the CC. This was not good enough and they then proceeded to send another bill for £180 because i had gone over the 28 days. I wrote to appeal which was unsuccessful (why i dont really Know) Anyway with a stressful pregnancy i have left my partner to deal with this (reason i was at Tommys).

My partner has told TFL & has maintained through all of this that it should be his bill as he was the driver, they do not acknowledge this and say as the owner it is mine, my partner and has refused to pay TFL £180 which i somewhat agree with. Now obviously the baliffs are knocking and I get the feeling with the way my partner feels so adamant about this that it will get nasty etc. Hoping someone can point me in the right direction as to what to do next and get this sorted. Its silly i have to pay a £467.04 for something had i known about would have gladly paid the £10 fee

 

Thanks in advance

[Carloblanco]

am i right in thinking that a charge is not forceable by law unless you entered into an agreement for the service to be chargable? If the congestion charge were a tax then it is forceable by law upon the people? Therefore as i didnt agree to pay the charge i am now not obliged to pay it?? i.e a mate comes round without you knowing cuts the grass and sends you a bill for £20.. obviously you never asked for the service therefore are not contractually obliged to pay it??

[ploddertom]

I'll move you to Local Authority Parking & Traffic Offences

[Carloblanco]

thanks

[Michael Browne]

am i right in thinking that a charge is not forceable by law unless you entered into an agreement for the service to be chargable? If the congestion charge were a tax then it is forceable by law upon the people? Therefore as i didnt agree to pay the charge i am now not obliged to pay it?? i.e a mate comes round without you knowing cuts the grass and sends you a bill for £20.. obviously you never asked for the service therefore are not contractually obliged to pay it??

 

Good luck with that argument.

[green_and_mean]

Its silly i have to pay a £467.04 for something had i known about would have gladly paid the £10 fee

 

Thanks in advance

 

You are not paying £467.04 for not paying the congestion charge, that amount is for failing to pay the penalty charge which you did know about and then not paying the charge certificate which you also knew about so Tfl have now had to pay baliffs to recover their penalty charge.

[Carloblanco]

i wrote to them explaining i would happily pay the £12 day late fee or indeed the £10 charge, but for not knowing about how/when/where to pay the CC i was not prepared to pay £60 / later £180 as this is unfair / unjust. there must be a way around this? its ridiculous! common sense must prevail!

[Aretnap]

I think you're stuffed on this one.

 

Yes you do have to pay the congestion charge if you drive into central London - call it a tax or a charge, whichever you prefer, but it's required by law.

 

As it didn't get paid the vehicle's registered keeper (not the driver) becomes liable for a penalty of £120, reduced to £60 if paid within 14 days. Yes it sucks and it's arguably out of proportion to the original charge, but again it's the law. You appealed to TfL against the penalty - you don't say on what grounds, but not knowing about the charge doesn't exempt you from it, nor does being pregnant. In view of the circumstances (emergency procedure at the hospital etc) they might have decided to use their discretion to waive it, but they didn't.

 

Once your appeal has been rejected by TfL you can either pay or appeal further to an independent adjudicator. If you do neither there's no way back; a Charge Certificate gets issued increasing the penalty to £180, no further appeal is possible, and if you still don't pay then bailiffs get called in to collect the debt, adding their own extortionate fees on top. This is the situation you're in now.

 

Someone on the bailiff forum may be able to give you some advice on dealing with the bailiffs, checking whether they're entitled to the fees they're demanding and agreeing a payment schedule if you can't afford to pay all at once. However if you just keep refusing to pay all that will happen is that the bailiff fees will mount up further, and eventually they'll tow your car, seize your property and sell them for a fraction of their true value to pay the debt. It's not a nice situation, but I'm afraid that's about the size of it.

[Kiki1]

a Charge Certificate gets issued increasing the penalty to £180, no further appeal is possible,

 

Not true. If the first three sates of appeal have been completed with regards to congestion charging the local government ombudsman can be notified. Whilst it is unlikely there is a reversal from the bailiffs, they may find some error in the way you have been treated and then put the case bac to TFL in a manner that makes them reflect on the process employed.

 

From the TFL site

 

Stage one

 

Choose from one of the following three options to lodge a formal complaint:

• Make a complaint online
  
• Phone: 0845 900 1234
  International callers phone +44 20 7649 9122
  Textphone 020 7649 9123 if you have impaired hearing
  

Please make sure you have all the relevant details to hand before calling.

Write to:

Customer Services Manager

Congestion Charging

P O Box 4782

Worthing

BN11 9PS

When you submit your complaint, let us know how you'd like us to respond (by email, post or by telephone).

We'll normally send written replies within 10 working days.

Stage two

 

If you're not satisfied with the manager's response after your first complaint you can complain to:

Head of Contracted Services

Congestion Charging

Transport for London

Palestra, 4th Floor

197 Blackfriars Road

Southwark

London

SE1 8NJ

We'll respond to your complaint within 10 working days. In cases where a full investigation may take a little longer, we'll let you know the reasons for the delay and a date by which you will receive a response.

Stage three

 

If you are still unhappy after the second stage, you have the right to appeal in writing to:

Director of Congestion Charging

Congestion Charging

Palestra, 4th Floor

197 Blackfriars Road

Southwark

London

SE1 8NJ

The director will aim to carry out a full review of your complaint within 10 working days, and will let you know if it is going to take any longer.

Local Government Ombudsman (LGO)

 

The LGO is an independent national service that investigates complaints against local authorities.

If you've been through our complaints procedure and are still dissatisfied, you may choose to escalate your complaint to the LGO at the address below.

You're entitled to contact the Ombudsman without completing our process, but in such cases the Ombudsman may refer your complaint back to us, to allow us the opportunity to resolve your issue.

 

The Local Government Ombudsman

PO Box 4771

Coventry CV4 0EH

 

Fax: 024 7682 0001

How to complain to the Local Government Ombudsman

[Aretnap]

Not true. If the first three sates of appeal have been completed with regards to congestion charging the local government ombudsman can be notified. Whilst it is unlikely there is a reversal from the bailiffs, they may find some error in the way you have been treated and then put the case bac to TFL in a manner that makes them reflect on the process employed.

Didn't know that was a possibility. TfL's website says

 

Do you use this procedure to deal with complaints about Penalty Charge Notices? No, disputes over Penalty Charge Notices (PCNs) have their own statutory representations and appeals procedure. You can get more information about this procedure on the PCN itself.

(Amusingly it then goes on to talk about complaints about "the service that you received during the clamping or removal of your vehicle" - do these people actually read what they're writing?)

 

However I see that the LGO does say

The Ombudsman will not normally investigate complaints about penalties where these grounds (ie the statutory grounds for appeal) apply, as an appeal may be made to the Parking and Traffic Appeal Service, and so they are outside our jurisdiction.

 

However, for penalties which are being challenged for other reasons – what we call ‘mitigating circumstances’ – such as the motorist was forced into the zone because of a police diversion or because the vehicle registration number was cloned, we may consider the complaint. If you believe that TfL has not properly considered mitigating circumstances you may complain to us.

So if the appeal was based on mitigating circumstances and it was not considered correctly there may be grounds for a complaint to the LGO. TfL's criteria for appeals do say

 

- "I didn't know I had to pay" or "I didn't see the signs" will not be accepted as mitigation

- An emergency hospital visit will be accepted if backed up by evidence

- A routine or scheduled visit will not be accepted

 

So what was the exact nature of the visit, was it a scheduled appointment (I'd read that as saying that a scheduled appointment won't be accepted, even if it was for an important/urgent procedure), and was this included in the appeal?

 

Even if there are grounds for a complaint to the LGO would this result in the bailiffs being called off in the meantime, or would the OP be as well to pay up to stop the charges mounting, and then think about a complaint to try and get her money back?

[Carloblanco]

Thankyou i will go via the complaints procedure.

 

I did originally appeal against the £60 fine, this was dismissed and I appealed against that, during this time they said it had now passed the 28 days and had increased to £180!

I have not heard anything since the second appeal towards my case until the Baliffs letter for £467.04 yesterday. You would have thought that as i appealed in time and even after rejection i would be given the chance to pay the initial £60 fine.

 

Its more than farcical in my eyes!

[Carloblanco]

Nature of the visit was to see Professor shannan at St Tommys for an emergency cervical suchure to keep my baby inside of me and alive! We had a call from him at approx 3pm and was on our way to London moments after for the procedure to take place the following morning. Im guessing these could be mitigating cicumstances?

[Desperate Daniella]

See if you can get the name of the Director of Congestion Charging. It used to be Graham something. Sorry I can't check right now. Whoever it is, write to him/her and explain everything, emergency, stress, etc., They cancelled one for me some years ago. I had a flood at home and completely forgot about paying the charge. I wrote a very apologetic letter saying that it was a genuine oversight and they said that in the circumstances they would cancel the penalty.

 

I hope you and the baby are okay.

 

DD

[Carloblanco]

Can they force entry with a warrant of Execution?

[Desperate Daniella]

As far as I know they cannot force entry by knocking down the door or breaking a window, but they can walk through an unlocked door or window and I am sure if you opened the door to them there are bailiffs who would push in. Once they are in they can seize your goods. If they have got in once they have a right to return. Make sure all doors and windows are locked and check no-one is around when you are going in or out. Move your car away from the local area, preferably put it in someone's garage if you can. This will not go away unless you have a successful appeal. If the bailiff puts a note through the door telephone them and tell them you have lodged an appeal. Also warn them that you are pregnant and vulnerable. This should make them cautious about their tactics if they do come round.

[Carloblanco]

Thank you daniella ! I have appealed to TFL on the grounds that I have not heard anything from Them as to the outcome of my appeal to the adjudicate r ! Have filed the pe2 & pe3 forms with them which should stave off the baliffs temporarily! Will contact ombudsman next. Will let you know what happens. 2Nd visit from baliffs today whilst I was out they now want 547.78 ... Funny!

[green_and_mean]

Thank you daniella ! I have appealed to TFL on the grounds that I have not heard anything from Them as to the outcome of my appeal to the adjudicate r ! Have filed the pe2 & pe3 forms with them which should stave off the baliffs temporarily! Will contact ombudsman next. Will let you know what happens. 2Nd visit from baliffs today whilst I was out they now want 547.78 ... Funny!

 

You stated in your opening post that you had received a letter stating your appeal was rejected.

[Desperate Daniella]

Hi Carloblanco,

 

If you haven't already done so, call the bailiff and let them know that you are appealing. It is important that you write to the Director of C C by name. My computer is down so can't get my correspondence to check for you - using blackberry for this - but if you phone them they will tell you.

 

DD

[Desperate Daniella]

The current Director of Congestion Charging is Nick Fairholme. (Graeme Craig has moved to another job.) You should write him a very, very apologetic letter with all the details, say you already offered to pay the next day payment, unexpected emergency procedure, worry made you completely forget to check what you had to do about C C, and so on. Also enclose proof of the hospital appointment.

 

Apart from my congestion charge issue I also once had a problem over a new car and a tax disc delayed in the post due to a strike and I wouldn't pay the fine so they took me to Court and their barrister dropped it before we went in. The problem is always getting through to someone who can make a decision and mostly the people you are dealing with have been told not to let anyone off.

 

DD

[Carloblanco]

Thanks again folks! I did email the baliff company, didnt speak to the goon that came to the door beacuse i know what they are like, hired thugs! Have told them to back off and that i will be dealing TFL direct and have appealed so you never know it might be the end of them.

[Carloblanco]

You stated in your opening post that you had received a letter stating your appeal was rejected.

 

Yes you make an appeal to TFL 1st that was rejected then you can appeal to a Parking Adjudicator, it was from this point that i had not heard anything about the success of the appeal, im assuming they rejected that too as a baliff turned up, but still how can i act accordingly if I havnt received the relevant paperwork or notified of what happens next. I will Write to the director next aswell as everything else...Thanks again for that info DD

[green_and_mean]

Your account of events clearly does not make sense if you got a letter demanding £180 you could not have appealled against it as that is a charge certificate issued after the appeal deadline, so where did you get your PATAS appeal forms from?

[Carloblanco]

im a little sketchy with the figures maybe?? But after initial appeal i recieved a bill for £180. Im not 100% sure it has been a long process. PATAS appeal forms?? I rang TEC northampton to get my stat dec forms today, and my original appeal forms were sent by TFL

[Carloblanco]

Update....signed the stat dec forms and sent those back to northampton tec to say not received outcome of appeal etc.. they refused got snotty letter from transport for london saying they would be reinstating the baliffs etc. But before that came back wrote to Nick Fairholme the cheif exec fella as directed by somebody (may thanks for that) and amazingly two days later i recieved a letter saying we agree that mitigating circumstances were involved and dropped all charges including paying the £10 fee which i had agreed was worthy of paying. All in all a great outcome. Common sense prevailed in the end!!

 

Big thanks to all!! xxx

[Desperate Daniella]

Result! So happy for you that this has been sorted out.

 

Good luck to you and your baby.

 

DDxx