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    • Please see my comments in orange within your post.
    • no i meant the email from parcel2go which email address did they send it from and who signed it off (whos name is at the bottom)
    • I understand confusion with this thread.  I tried to keep threads separate because there have been so many angles.    But a team member merged them all.  This is why it's hard to keep track. This forum exists to help little people fight injustice - however big or small.  Im here to try get a decent resolution. Not to give in to the ' big boys'. My "matter' became complicated 'matters' simply because a lender refused to sell a property. What can I say?  I'll try in a nutshell to give an overview: There's a long lease property. I originally bought it short lease with a s.146 on it from original freeholder.  I had no concerns. So lender should have been able to sell a well-maintained lovely long lease property.  The property was great. The issue is not the property.  Economy, sdlt increases, elections, brexit, covid, interest hikes etc didn't help.  The issue is simple - the lender wanted to keep it.   House or Flat? Before repo I offered to clear my loan.  I was a bit short and lender refused.  They said (recorded) they thought the property was worth much more and they were happy to keep accruing interest (in their benefit) until it reached a point where they felt they could repo and still easily quickly sell to get their £s back.  This was a mistake.  The market was (and is) tough.   2y later the lender ceo bid the same sum to buy the property for himself. He'd rejected higher offers in the intervening period whilst accruing interest. Lenders have a legal obligation to sell the property for the best price they can get. If they feel the offer is low they won't sell it, because it's likely the borrower will say the same. I had the property under offer to a fantastic niche buyer but lender rushed to repo and buyer got spooked and walked.  It had taken a long time to find such a lucrative buyer.  A sale which would have resulted in £s and another asset for me. Post repo lender had 1 offer immediately.  But dragged out the process for >1y - allegedly trying to get other offers. But disclosure shows there was only one valid buyer. Again, points as above. Lender appointed receiver (after 4 months) - simply to try acquire the freehold.  He used his powers as receiver to use me, as leaseholder, to serve notice on freeholders.  Legally that failed. Meanwhile lender failed to secure property - and squatters got in (3 times).  And they failed to maintain it.  So freeholders served a dilapidations notice (external) - on me as leaseholder (cc-ed to lender).   (That's how it works legally) Why serve a delapidations notice? If it's in the terms of the lease to maintain the property to a good standard, then serve an S146 notice instead as it's a clear breach of the lease. I don't own the freehold.  But I am a trustee and have to do right by the freeholders.  This is where matters got/ get complicated.  And probably lose most caggers.   Lawyers got involved for the freeholders to firstly void the receiver enfranchisement notice. Secondly, to serve the dilapidations notice.  The lack of maintenance was in breach of lease and had to be served to protect fh asset. Enfranchisement isn't something that can be "voided", it's in the Leasehold Reform Act 1967 that leaseholders have the right to buy the freehold of the property. It's normal, whether it is a "normal" leaseholder or a repossession with a leasehold house, to claim this right of enfranchisement and sell the property with said rights attached and the purchase price of the freehold included in the final completion price. That's likely what the mortgage provider wished to do. The lender did no repairs. They said a buyer would undertake them. Which was probably correct. If they had sold. After 1y lender finally agreed to sell to the 1st offeror and contracts went with lawyers.  Within 1 month lender reneged.  Lender tried to suggest buyer walked. Evidence shows he/ his lawyers continued trying to exchange (cash) for 4 months.  Evidence shows lender and receiver strategy had been to renege and for ceo to take control.   I still think that's their plan. Redact and scan said evidence up for others to look at? Lender then stupidly chose to pretty much bulldoze the property.  Other stuff was going on in the background. After repo I was in touch by phone and email and lender knew post got to me.   Despite this, after about 10 months (before and then during covid), they deliberately sent SDs and eventually a B petition to an incorrect address and an obscure small court.  They never served me properly.  (In hindsight I understand they hoped to get a backdoor B - so they could keep the property that way.)  Eventually the random court told them to email me by way of service.  At this point their ruse to make me B failed.  I got a lawyer (friend paid). The B petition was struck out. They’d failed to include the property as an asset. They were in breach of insolvency rules. So this is dealt with then. Simultaneously the receiver again appointed lawyers to act on my behalf as leaseholder. This time to serve notice on the freeholders for a lease extension.  He had hoped to try and vary the strict lease. Evidence shows the already long length of lease wasn't an issue.  The lender obviously hoped to get round their lack of permission to do works (which they were already doing) by hoping to remove the strict clauses that prevent leaseholder doing alterations.  You wouldn't vary a lease through a lease extension. You'd need a Deed of Variation for that. This may be done at the same time but the lease has already been extended once and that's all they have a right to. The extension created a new legal angle for me to deal with.  I had to act as trustee for freeholders against me as leaseholder/ the receiver.  Inconsistencies and incompetence by receiver lawyers dragged this out 3y.  It still isn't properly resolved. The lease has already been extended once so they have no right to another extension. It seems pretty easy to just get the lawyer to say no and stick by those terms as the law is on your side there. Meanwhile - going back to the the works the lender undertook. The works were consciously in breach of lease.  The lender hadn't remedied the breaches listed in the dilapidations notice.  They destroyed the property.  The trustees compiled all evidence.  The freeholders lawyers then served a forfeiture notice. This notice started a different legal battle. I was acting for the freeholders against what the lender had done on my behalf as leaseholder.  This legal battle took 3y to resolve. Again, order them to revert it as they didn't have permission to do the works, or else serve an S146 notice for breach of the lease. The simple exit would have been for lender to sell. A simple agreement to remedy the breaches and recompense the freeholders in compensation - and there's have been clean title to sell.  That option was proposed to them.   This happened by way of mediation for all parties 2y ago.  A resolution option was put forward and in principle agreed.  But immediately after the lender lawyers failed to engage.  A hard lesson to learn - mediation cannot be referred to in court. It's considered w/o prejudice. The steps they took have made no difference to their ability to sell the property.  Almost 3y since they finished works they still haven't sold. ** ** I followed up some leads myself.  A qualified cash buyer offered me a substantial sum.  The lender and receiver both refused it.   I found another offer in disclosure.  6 months later someone had apparently offered a substantial sum via an agent.  The receiver again rejected it.  The problem of course was that the agent had inflated the market price to get the business. But no-one was or is ever going to offer their list price.  Yet the receiver wanted/wants to hold out for the list price.  Which means 1y later not only has it not sold - disclosure shows few viewings and zero interest.  It's transparently over-priced.  And tarnished. For those asking why I don't give up - I couldn't/ can't.  Firstly I have fiduciary duties as a trustee. Secondly, legal advice indicates I (as leaseholder) could succeed with a large compensation claim v the lender.  Also - I started a claim v my old lawyer and the firm immediately reimbursed some £s. That was encouraging.  And a sign to continue.  So I'm going for compensation.  I had finance in place (via friend) to do a deal and take the property back off the lender - and that lawyer messed up bad.   He should have done a deal.  Instead further years have been wasted.   Maybe I only get back my lost savings - but that will be a result.   If I can add some kind of complaint/ claim v the receiver's conscious impropriety I will do so.   I have been left with nothing - so fighting for something is worth it. The lender wants to talk re a form of settlement.  Similar to my proposal 2y ago.  I have a pretty clear idea of what that means to me.  This is exactly why I do not give up.  And why I continue to ask for snippets of advice/ pointers on cag.  
    • It was all my own work based on my previous emails to P2G which Bank has seen.
    • I was referring to #415 where you wrote "I was forced to try to sell - and couldn't." . And nearer the start in #79 .. "I couldn't sell.  I had an incredibly valuable asset. Huge equity.  But the interest accrued / the property market suffered and I couldn't find a buyer even at a level just to clear the debt." In #194 you said you'd tried to sell for four years.  The reason for these points is that a lot of the claims against for example your surveyor, solicitor, broker, the lender and now the receiver are mainly founded in a belief that they should have been able to do something but did not. Things that might seem self evident to you but not necessarily to others. Pressing these claims may well need a bit more hard evidence, rather than an appeal to common sense. Can you show evidence of similar properties, with similar freehold issues, selling readily? And solid reasons why the lender should have been able to sell when you couldn't.
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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1st October Legislation - Does It Cover Non-BPA Members?


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Hi,

I'm on the understanding that the new rules for PPC's that start today are for BPA members only. If so what about the Non-BPA members?

I ask this as we have a few car parks in my local town (Whitehaven) that are patrolled (and I'm pretty sure owned) by Whitehaven Harbour Commissioners.

They have a habit of dealing out Parking Invoices like confetti and whenever I can I advise people to ignore their empty threats (and the eventual threats from Roxburghe and the lovely Graham White).

As far as I know they don't appear to be members of the BPA (I have checked the BPA list but can't find them on there)

http://www.britishparking.co.uk/AOS-Members

 

Any advice would be great.

 

Cheers,

 

Sploits

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Hi Crocdoc,

 

Thanks for the reply,

I'm not 100% sure that they aren't a member of the BPA but having a look at the members list I can't find them listed anywhere. I will be in town this coming Friday so I will pop round and check their signage and see if it lists it there. If it doesn't then what is the best port of action. Can they be reported for obtaining RK details when they aren't supposed to? If so then who to?

 

Also if they are members and they dish out a parking charge then we ignore because of what reason? I know it was always because of them not knowing the driver, charging an extortianate amount (penalty) etc but with the new law then I thought we had to comply and possibly pay (loss of earnings at the most anyway). Sorry if the question sounds dumb, I'm just trying to get my head around it so that I don't give out false advice if anybody asks me whether or not to pay an invoice from a PPC.

 

Thanks again

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At the end of the day, the principal has not changed. In my view the identity of the driver should never have been used as an absolute defence. The debate about such charges being fines or penalties has always been a much stronger defence, The new rules will not make it any easier for these companies to succeed in the courts. Therefore, it is back to receiving begging letters from debt collectors.

 

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Brilliant Crocdoc,

 

I will advise people to continue ignoring.

 

As for Whitehaven Harbour Commissioners I will check there signage out and report back to my findings. They hate me as it is due to me advising the whole of my town to ignore their junkmail. This will add to the hatred if I can find out that they aren't members.

 

Cheers,

 

Sploits

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The Whitehaven Harbour Commissioners may have some statutory powers like Byelaws etc relating to parking, in which case a criminal action could arise if this is the case. A power could possibly be within the Harbours Act 1964.

 

There is a specific power under Section 83 Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847 to create (criminal) Byelaws at certain harbours/ports/docks.

 

I believe the Byelaw is:

 

Obstruction or interference at harbour area premises/dock estate

 

23. No persons shall -

(b) park any vehicle so as to obstruct any road, building, mooring place, plant, machinery or apparatus or the access thereto;

 

Maximum penalty on conviction is a Level 3 fine (up to £1000).

 

 

So - I wouldn't automatically ignore any tickets from Whitehaven Harbour Commissioners, until you have ensured that they do not relate to Byelaws/Criminal marine law. There is no requirement for any signage. It is also strict liability which means that if you obstruct a road by parking, on harbour/port land or property, you automatically commit an offence with absolutely no defences.

 

If you have a copy of the parking notice it would help to scan a copy so we can see what it says.

Edited by firstclassx
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Brilliant Crocdoc,

 

I will advise people to continue ignoring.

 

As for Whitehaven Harbour Commissioners I will check there signage out and report back to my findings. They hate me as it is due to me advising the whole of my town to ignore their junkmail. This will add to the hatred if I can find out that they aren't members.

 

Cheers,

 

Sploits

 

I am happy to be corrected but my understanding is that membership of the BPA is compulsory if the private parking company wishes to use the electronic access.

 

There is nothing to stop people/companies making a paper request as you or I might. Applicants to the Approved Operator Scheme have a probationary period anyway before being allowed access to the electronic scheme.

 

If you have a ticket I believe it is possible to ask via Freedom on Information to whom the DVLA have released information and what evidence was presented to them to allow them to do so. That might prove fruitful.

 

But I stress that is my understanding - others may know better.

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The Whitehaven Harbour Commissioners may have some statutory powers like Byelaws etc relating to parking, in which case a criminal action could arise if this is the case. A power could possibly be within the Harbours Act 1964.

 

There is a specific power under Section 83 Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847 to create (criminal) Byelaws at certain harbours/ports/docks.

 

I believe the Byelaw is:

 

Obstruction or interference at harbour area premises/dock estate

 

23. No persons shall -

(b) park any vehicle so as to obstruct any road, building, mooring place, plant, machinery or apparatus or the access thereto;

 

Hi firstclassx,

 

I have had a ticket off them in the past and nothing has ever been mentioned about any harbour bylaws.

Also the car parks are off the harbour and you cannot access the working harbour directly from the car parks.

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If you have a ticket I believe it is possible to ask via Freedom on Information to whom the DVLA have released information and what evidence was presented to them to allow them to do so. That might prove fruitful.

 

This could prove very useful indeed. Roll on Friday so that I can do some snooping and then if they aren't part of the BPA I will personally go out of my way to recieve a ticket from them to then see what rights they have (if any) to get my details from the DVLA.

 

Thanks

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The Whitehaven Harbour Commissioners may have some statutory powers like Byelaws etc relating to parking, in which case a criminal action could arise if this is the case. A power could possibly be within the Harbours Act 1964.

 

There is a specific power under Section 83 Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847 to create (criminal) Byelaws at certain harbours/ports/docks.

 

I believe the Byelaw is:

 

Obstruction or interference at harbour area premises/dock estate

 

23. No persons shall -

(b) park any vehicle so as to obstruct any road, building, mooring place, plant, machinery or apparatus or the access thereto;

 

Maximum penalty on conviction is a Level 3 fine (up to £1000).

 

 

So - I wouldn't automatically ignore any tickets from Whitehaven Harbour Commissioners, until you have ensured that they do not relate to Byelaws/Criminal marine law. There is no requirement for any signage. It is also strict liability which means that if you obstruct a road by parking, on harbour/port land or property, you automatically commit an offence with absolutely no defences.

 

If you have a copy of the parking notice it would help to scan a copy so we can see what it says.

 

I agree entirely, similar rules apply to Airports, Stations etc, however the mere fact that they are issuing CIVIL PARKING CHARGE notices suggests in itself that they are not using enforcement measures under the terms of byelaw.

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I agree entirely, similar rules apply to Airports, Stations etc, however the mere fact that they are issuing CIVIL PARKING CHARGE notices suggests in itself that they are not using enforcement measures under the terms of byelaw.

 

The OP didn't specify what the wording was... that is why I asked for a copy to read the wording.

 

The problem with ignoring the "civil" penalties in cases like this, is that, at some point, the Harbour/Port authority may realise they are ineffective/unpaid and may start to apply the criminal legislation such as Byelaws, as they are perfectly entitled to do.

 

Certainly people shouldn't be parking anywhere they fancy just because a "civil" penalty is usually unenforceable.

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There is no wording on the tickets stating any bylaws (harbour or any other). The wording on all the signs states civil parking charges will be issued. I will take a photo of the sign on Froday and post a copy up for you all.

Also would yhey br allowed to use the bylaw if the carparks have nothi g to do with the harbour? Fair enough they are close but we are a seaside town and the carparks have no real connection to the harbour (apart from being possibly owned by the harbour commission). Would that not be like Newcastle airport using the bylaw for a carpark they possibly owned/managed in Newcastle city centre?

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There is no wording on the tickets stating any bylaws (harbour or any other). The wording on all the signs states civil parking charges will be issued. I will take a photo of the sign on Froday and post a copy up for you all.

Also would yhey br allowed to use the bylaw if the carparks have nothi g to do with the harbour? Fair enough they are close but we are a seaside town and the carparks have no real connection to the harbour (apart from being possibly owned by the harbour commission). Would that not be like Newcastle airport using the bylaw for a carpark they possibly owned/managed in Newcastle city centre?

 

If the land is owned by the Harbour authority then the Byelaws would presumably apply. Boundaries will probably be laid out in specific legislation. They also apply off their land if access to the harbour is obstructed.

 

Marine Law is quite complicated and way out of my niche.

 

On the railway, their Byelawst covers any land owned or managed by a railway operator or on their behalf.

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I am happy to be corrected but my understanding is that membership of the BPA is compulsory if the private parking company wishes to use the electronic access.

 

There is nothing to stop people/companies making a paper request as you or I might. Applicants to the Approved Operator Scheme have a probationary period anyway before being allowed access to the electronic scheme.

 

If you have a ticket I believe it is possible to ask via Freedom on Information to whom the DVLA have released information and what evidence was presented to them to allow them to do so. That might prove fruitful.

 

But I stress that is my understanding - others may know better.

 

No to gain keepers details for the reason of a parking charge either by electronic or paper application then you must be an AOS member. I would bet the details are being gained by Roxburghe as they are members. However they should not gain any details for anyone other then a AOS member.

 

However the company could be gaining keeper details for other reasons.

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No to gain keepers details for the reason of a parking charge either by electronic or paper application then you must be an AOS member. I would bet the details are being gained by Roxburghe as they are members. However they should not gain any details for anyone other then a AOS member.

 

And as far as I'm aware WHC are not an AOS member.

 

However the company could be gaining keeper details for other reasons.
What other reasons could there be?

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What other reasons could there be?

 

Trespassing, abandoned car, damage caused, personal injury, any reasonable cause except the claim for a parking charge. It would depend on what the DVLA thought of the reasonable cause. They could be requesting the information through a byelaw, then processing it as a civil claim. They then keep any money where as with a byelaw offence it would go to a court.

 

Many railway carpark operators use byelaw 14 to try and intimidate but use the civil route.

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Trespassing, abandoned car, damage caused, personal injury, any reasonable cause except the claim for a parking charge. It would depend on what the DVLA thought of the reasonable cause. They could be requesting the information through a byelaw, then processing it as a civil claim. They then keep any money where as with a byelaw offence it would go to a court.

 

Many railway carpark operators use byelaw 14 to try and intimidate but use the civil route.

 

Ah so basically any excuse they can think of to get peoples details to then try and fleece them.....

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Trespassing, abandoned car, damage caused, personal injury, any reasonable cause except the claim for a parking charge. It would depend on what the DVLA thought of the reasonable cause. They could be requesting the information through a byelaw, then processing it as a civil claim. They then keep any money where as with a byelaw offence it would go to a court.

 

Many railway carpark operators use byelaw 14 to try and intimidate but use the civil route.

 

Perhaps so, but although it may benefit the railway operator, does it not also benefit the motorist who can avoid prosecution?

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as i see it you have to name who the driver was. heres mine

 

 

iant payink

2543 10th St

Santa Monica CA 90405-3956

United States

 

YES I have visions of this happening, I would also imagine that appeals will be received from people in Botswana, Outer Mongolia and any other place you can imagine simply to to cost the PPC £27.00 + VAT.

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YES I have visions of this happening, I would also imagine that appeals will be received from people in Botswana, Outer Mongolia and any other place you can imagine simply to to cost the PPC £27.00 + VAT.

 

Rhaid peidio ag anghofio Gogledd Corea, Iran ac Irac er!

 

Unrhyw un awydd ysgrifennu apęl yn Gymraeg? Yn sicr mae'n rhaid iddynt gydymffurfio â Deddf yr Iaith Gymraeg os gallai'r "gyrrwr" ar y pryd yn "Cymraeg"? Byddai'n rhaid iddynt dalu am gyfieithydd ar y pryd ar gyfer apêl.

 

Yn ystod busnes cyhoeddus a gweinyddu cyfiawnder, cyn belled ag y bo'n rhesymol ymarferol, yr ieithoedd Cymraeg a Saesneg yn cael eu trin ar y sail eu bod yn gyfartal.

 

Mae cyfieithydd yn rhesymol ymarferol cyn belled ag y gallaf ddweud!

 

Dim ond yn defnyddio Google gyfieithu.

 

So there! Appeal in Welsh and make them foot the cost of an interpreter too!

(By the way, not sure how the above will translate from Cymraeg-English)

Edited by firstclassx
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Wel Nid oes gennyf unrhyw syniad beth ydych ddau yn siarad am haha

 

Neither do the BPA :D

 

I believe the Welsh Language Act would allow an appeal to be made in Welsh. In addition to the appeal fee, they'd also have to pay for an interpreter. They couldn't refuse an appeal on the basis it is in Welsh IMO. You obviously just write in Welsh via Google translate unless you know someone who speaks it, or are actually from Wales :)

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