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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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Help with case management conferance


rdm2006
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long winded story but here goes.

 

In 2008 HSBC started proceedings to repossess my home due to arrears.

 

At that point the oft case was underway but not completed and i had stated that the balance owing was inflated due to bank charges. (We were forced to take out a further loan in 2004 to pay an overdraft which consisted mostly of charges (£x,000's)

 

Also in 2004 but prior to the above my wife became ill and we attempted to claim on the mortgage protection but they said my wife was not on the policy. 12 Months later i had reason to make a complaint to the bank over another matter and happened to mention this, we were then told that my wife was on the policy and that we would have to make a retrospective claim which we did, and after 12 more months of "your fault not ours" from the bank we were sent a document from the underwriters which basically proved that it was an error due to the bank. The bank then accepted full responsibility and paid out.

 

During this 12 months we were charged over£1,200 in charges. these were refunded and we were offered £100 (1/12th of the amount we were charged) which i refused saying that if this error was "worth" £1,200 when they thought it was due to my error then it should also be "worth" £1,200 now that they know it is their error. After all if we go overdrawn we have to pay the money back plus charges, the bank are saying all they have to do is pay the money back but they would also give £100 as a goodwill gesture.

 

Back to current day, I have written to the court stating that under directive 93/13 they have a duty to test these charges for fairness. I have stated that the charges are unfair due to schedule 2 terms which have the OBJECT or EFFECT of:-

 

Part D - “permitting the seller or supplier to retain sums paid by the consumer where the latter decides not to conclude or perform the contract, without providing for the consumer to receive compensation of an equivalent amount from the seller or supplier where the latter is the party cancelling the contract;”.

 

(Basically if A can charge B should an event occur then B should be able to charge A the same amount if the roles are reversed)

 

I now need help in encouraging the court to perform this duty.

 

Although the property was sold for more than the balance owed, the bank are claiming that the court costs have created a mortgage shortfall.

 

Can anyone help????

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Just trying to get my head round this rdm.

 

You took out a loan to pay off an overdraft which was made up almost entirely of charges, and I suppose interest. If you hadn't had the charges you wouldn't have needed the loan. Is that unfair? I'm sure we had some argument at one point about this.

 

Later the bank refused to pay PPI so you incurred more charges. Was this on a bank account or your mortgage? The bank subsequently admitted they should have paid out on the PPI claim, but wouldn't reimburse the charges incurred as a result of their original non-payment. There was no restitution and as a consequence you went on to lose the house.

 

Now you're being asked to pay a shortfall made up of charges and the banks legal costs, despite the original mortgage being covered by the sale of the house.

 

Are your arguments to do with bank charges, mortgage charges, or both?

 

I'm afraid you've long me on your legal points.

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Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Hi Caro thanks so much for adding something.

 

Mid 2004 They failed to pay out on a Mortgage Protection policy (MPP) stating that my wife was not on the policy. Under this policy we would pay the mortgage and this would be refunded to our bank accounts but, due to their claim that my wife was not on the policy, this didnt happen.

 

We struggled to pay anything other than the mortgage due to low income (wife off ill remember) and our accounts just kept getting more and more charges until late 2004 when we were summoned to the bank and basically forced to take out a remortgage paying off the overdraft and consolidating other debt (car loan credit cards etc, which we had been unable to pay as all our money was paying the mortgage).

 

Then in 2005 it came to light that my wife was on the policy and we had to make a retrospective claim and after months and months of the bank saying "not our fault" we wrote to the underwriters asking why changes had been made to our policy and by whom (another long story I wont go into now) and they sent a letter (on HSBC Headed paper) confirming that the bank had made the changes. At this point the bank had no alternative but to pay up.

 

During this period of non payment we had racked up over £1200 worth of charges (d/d refusals and unauthorised overdrafts) so I then wrote to the bank stating that had they paid this MPP at the correct time then each mortgage payment would have been refunded to my current account and no charges would have been incurred. The bank recalculated my statements and found this to be true and had to refund these charges. Even when they knew these charges may be wrong they continued to make more charges.

 

The total amount that they had to pay including the overdraft charges (that were not overdraft charges because it would not have happened) was over £7000.00. The bank also offered £100 in compensation for these errors. (stating that i was only inconvenienced - cheekey beggars)

 

I wrote to them refusing this £100 stating that whilst the bank had believed that our account had gone overdrawn and unauthorised borrowing had taken place due to our error they raised charges of £1200, but now that it has been discovered to be their error they offer only £100.

 

If I owe the bank money the T & C's state that i not only have to pay the money back but also charges, however, now that they owed me money, (the return of the mortgage payments plus monies they took from me claiming they were charges. Is this unauthorised borrowing from me!). The T & C's have no provision for me to charge the bank for thier unauthorised borrowing.

 

 

does any of that make sense ???

 

Edit - Also, had they paid this MPP at the correct time, would I have needed to borrow as much (or at all) when I had to remortgage, and, should I have to pay interest on the part that I did not need to borrow???

 

e.g. had they paid the MPP at the correct time i would have been able to pay my car loan and cards therefore reducing the balance, so if i did need to consolidate the balance would have been less.

Edited by rdm2006
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What are the POC?

 

Did you ever read about Spicey charging HSBC? http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?27632-The-Phoenix-v-HSBC&p=2662093&viewfull=1#post2662093

 

I don't know if it will be of any help but could be worth a read.

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Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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POC of my counter claim - now this is where things get complicated - I sent everything off to a solicitor over 18 months ago and the solicitor is still considering if they will take the case or not, unfortunately I can not remember what the original POC's were and chances are they will now need to be amended which I will need help with (I am useless with this legal speal- as you may have noticed).

 

So far the judges have been quite understanding with me being an LIP, I am in no doubt that I have not always set things out as I should but have been able to articulate the points I have been making in court.

 

I do remember tho that in my counter claim I did state that I disputed the amount which the bank claimed that I owed.

Edited by rdm2006
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What I would like to do, is raise issues with the following.

 

1. In a cpr request I asked for letters between myself and Mr A, Mr B and Mr C at the bank. The banks solicitors then claimed (in a statement of truth) that these letters were uneconomical to reproduce, already in my control (???) and that the content was irrelevant to the case.

 

I would like to know

 

A, If these letters could not be reproduced then how do they know that the content is irrelevant??

B, How were they later supplied under a DPA SAR request??

C, This so called statement of truth is clearly not true, should I be expected to pay this cost.

 

2. When the repossession was raised there was more than enough equity in the property to pay off the mortgage to the bank, a second charge owed to EPF (a subsidiary company of HSBC) and still have monies left over, however, as the bank added court costs to this mortgage prior to its completion of sale, that then made a shortfall - HSBC and its subsidiary EPF then took months debating who was going to show the shortfall that it had itself created. This got so bad that the housing association buying the property under the Mortgage Rescue Scheme pulled out. They later reversed this. Should I have to pay the interest incurred whilst the bank debated with itself.

 

3. The bank has been found to be involved in the "Rate Fixing" scandal what effect has this had on the mortgage? If this has resulted in a higher interest rate, should I have to pay this increased interest?

 

4. Should I have to pay interest on the increased amount borrowed due to the non payment of the Mortgage Protection Policy??

 

5. Under Directive 93/13 the court has a duty to test the un/fairness of the charges raised on a linked current account - If these are found to be unfair then this again may mean that I had borrowed more than needed and again should I have to pay the increased interest.

Edited by rdm2006
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Well court recognises that it has a duty to protect the consumer from unfair terms and conditions.

They were not happy that HSBC thought that everything was over, or that they have put in a statement of truth that info requested by me under CPR was not cost effective to reproduce but has then supplied this info under a SAR (oops).

 

I now have to produce a statement listing my concerns (didnt use that word - but cant remember what word she used), what effect that this has had on the shortfall that HSBC is claiming and how I have calculated this.

 

At least it is a step in the right direction.

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Sounds encouraging rdm. Have you got any time scales for your statement or a hearing?

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Hmm. That gives HSBC plenty of time to consider your statement. Any idea how long the hearing will be?

 

Although you obviously need to get all the info in, try to make sure your statement isn't too long. Judges are busy people and some won't bother reading the info if there's too much, so try and keep it succinct.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Keep us posted and holler if we can help. :-)

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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What sort of things can i claim for???

 

eg all the agro we went through caused me to go off ill with depression which then led to the loss of my job.

 

so can i claim damages for both the loss of employment and depression or just the depression

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What did you put in your defence and counterclaim? I guess you should be seeking restitution.

 

You could calculate what you lost in monetary terms, but it seems to me that you can't really claim for things that you haven't already mentioned. I could be wrong.

 

You could include your costs including time spent, and include any receipts you may have. I think the rate a litigant in person can claim is £18.50 per hour, but you should itemise this as well as you can to prove what you are claiming is reasonable.

 

What track is this?

 

Do you know if the hearing will be with the same judge?

 

A concern that I have is costs, because although the judge considers that there is a case worth hearing, that does not guarantee success. Should you lose, and be liable for HSBC's costs you could be worse off.

 

Of course the choice is yours, but I wonder if it might be worth you trying to negotiate a settlement before the hearing, making it clear that you have a strong case, but don't want to waste further court time and resources.

The Consumer Action Group is a free help site.

Should you be offered help that requires payment please report it to site team.

Advice & opinions given by Caro are personal, are not endorsed by Consumer Action Group or Bank Action Group, and are offered informally, without prejudice & without liability. Your decisions and actions are your own, and should you be in any doubt, you are advised to seek the opinion of a qualified professional.

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Hi Caro,

 

With regard to costs. the test of fairness of the terms (which allow the bank to raise charges) should be raised of the courts own motion. Can the bank claim costs from me for a motion that I have not raised ??

 

It is a repossession case so it is not a small claims track but a solicitor is considering the case and they have all of the paperwork now, but until they decide I am having to deal with this myself.

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You could calculate what you lost in monetary terms, but it seems to me that you can't really claim for things that you haven't already mentioned. I could be wrong.

 

Can BF or someone in the know find this out as I would like to include things for eg

 

distress caused by falsely claiming that documents requested under CPR were uneconomical to reproduce which were later reproduced under a SAR request (I did ask the judge if it was fair for me to be forced to pay for this as it is already in the banks costs)

 

Also that they have been harassing us for payment for this shortfall (even threatening to take me to court) which I did mention at the conference can I claim distress for this

 

As these have emerged during the process can these be included

 

and the judge did say to write down everything that we are concerned about - will that make a difference

Edited by rdm2006
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  • 3 weeks later...

You might want to consider changing the reference:

5. Under Directive 93/13 <...>

This made it in to domestic legislation under Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (according to my mate Google).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_Terms_in_Consumer_Contracts_Regulations_1999

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2083/contents/made

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Unfortunately the courts obligation to test the fairness of terms (of their own motion) does not appear to have been translated into the UTCCR (or at least i cant find it). however, it is settled law ref to the cases of "pannon" and "oceanic grupo" and this is why i quote the directive rather than the UTCCR.

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Unfortunately the courts obligation to test the fairness of terms (of their own motion) does not appear to have been translated into the UTCCR (or at least i cant find it). however, it is settled law ref to the cases of "pannon" and "oceanic group" and this is why i quote the directive rather than the UTCCR.

Sometimes climbing a mountain is a series of short, steep climbs as you head for the next local horizon, or the cloud base.

 

Sometimes the view changes or the cloud clears and you can see just how far you still have to go before you get to the summit.

 

I just had one of those moments...

 

Awesome. And thanks.

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Interesting.

 

FSA has fined DB Mortgages for"Serious" breaches of MCOB's rules, one of those breaches was putting the consumer at risk of financial loss

 

(link kindly provided by bankfodder unfair lender conduct)

 

When my case started there would have been over £2,000 of surplus funds after the sale, however, HSBC used its Full Indemnity Clause to add court costs and solicitors fees to the mortgage and created a shortfall. as there were two lenders HSBC and one of its subsidiaries there then followed a 4 month debate on who would show the deficit.

 

This got so bad that the purchaser pulled out. I then got on to HSBC's solicitors (DG) to advise them who, then burst into a flurry of action (no doubt raising more fees for me to pay) and between us we got the purchaser back on board.

 

Once the sale completed the bank created a new account (strangely with the old mortgage account number) for the shortfall

 

This could have happened in a different way :-

 

The bank could have allowed the sale to go through, created the new account (adding court costs and solicitors fees) and then offset some of this with the proceeds of the sale.

 

This would have lead to less interest for me to pay (4 months) and less solicitors fees/costs.

 

So if putting the consumer at risk of financial loss is "serious" then what is actually causing financial loss ????

 

Edit - If this Full indemnity Clause permits HSBC to take an action which causes financial loss then is this clause fair???

Edited by rdm2006
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