ESA claimants face increased sanctions if they breach work plans

[debt4get]

osbourne booed by olympic stadium crowd...funnily enough the comments section has been disabled.....wonder why?

[worried33]

Disgusting. Can someone please explain how these plans are different to current JSA stuff? It looks the same to me.

 

It looks like they have swapped the sanction from the WRAG component to the base component.

 

Still an illegal move like the current illegal JSA sanctions, also I read an article in the sun that the current hardship payments sanctioned JSA claimants can get are due to be scrapped.

 

Very bad era to be alive in, and even if this lot lose the next election I honestly feel labour wouldnt undo this as they started it all off when introducing ESA.

[worried33]

the difficulty is that in order to get into the support group you have to be severely disabled by your condition - not just unable to work, but barely able to live a life either.

 

The criterion for the WRAG don't actually apply to a lot of people who in reality cannot do any work - for instance if you cannot sit and cannot stand without severe pain, you cannot work, however this wouldn't actually get you enough points to be in the WRAG, let alone the support group. If you have something causing chronic severe diarrhea and pain, as long as you are not incontinent, you are considered fit for work - but would most people be able to work with crippling stomach pains and diarrhea 20 times a day? Many mental health problems preclude work entirely, but don't enable inclusion into the support group.

 

The problem is that the redefining of what it means to be too sick and disabled to work, has no basis at all in reality. For instance, with spinal and joint problems, I can lie propped up on my side and use a laptop, so I could do some work, and indeed would happily accept work that I could do at home on the laptop and fit around chronic crohns, however I'm never going to be given that work. Luckily I'm in the support group - but only until the next assessment when like everyone, I roll the dice. But take someone who only has chronic crohns and is incontinenet only when they can't get to a toilet in time - maybe they're in the work group. They have diarrhea many times a day, need their own designated toilet, may need many sick days off every year - who is going to give this person a job??? maybe if you have some spectacular special skills, or are a genius, accomodations will be made for you, but most of us aren't, and those accomodations wouldn't be considered reasonable by most employers, and certainly wouldn't be made for a work placement. Could you imagine Tesco agreeing that you can work within 20 feet of your own designated toilet? mental health accomodations are much harder to make. I know someone who is on the autistic spectrum and has severe anxiety. He can't work anywhere where he would need to talk to people or deal with anything stressful - and when I say people, he won't even go into a shop if he has to ask for what he wants, or speak to a shop assistant - how do you accomodate that?

 

whoever designed these descriptors do not live in the real world. Someone on here suggested that these descriptors should be applied to general work related sickness in order to get SSP and sick pay - I wholeheartedly agree. Things would change pretty darn fast if Mr Working person found that they had to go into work with illnesses such as food poisoning - sorry diarrhea, vomiting and stomach pain aren't in the descriptors so no sick pay for you. Put your back out? Well you do a combination of sitting and standing, so no sick pay for you. Flu? Sorry, general malaise and fatigue aren't in the descriptors.

 

Agreed, you said what I have been saying many times but you say it better.

 

The assessment takes no account of employability, it just looks at an absolute best case scenario, as if that person would find their perfect job that they could just about manage to do in an ideal situation and be teleported to their place of work without needing to do transportation and the hours of work always fall perfectly when their condition is at its best, they also dont have to go through a job hunting period of having to attend interviews and so on. Even working from home jobs (the legitamate rare ones) would typically need a job interview and initial training period on the company's site.

 

Even more shocking is the DWP consider this more accurate and modern representation than the IB PCA, who are they kidding?

 

I wonder what job public's view would be if they had to undergo a ATOS WCA everytime they rang up sick for work. Then faced 80% of their income dropped for a period of time.

[debt4get]

i h ave argued that point before about applying the wca to people at work who ring in sick.....until it actually happens to you they appear to have little concept of what this govt is actually doing to the welfare state....they see it in black and white...scroungers, and them paying the bill.....it is not until they are sick, ill or disabled or unemployed themselves that the penny finally drops and the scales fall from their eyes.....though the booing of that idiot osbourne shows that there are a lot of people beginning to wake up...but fear it is too little too late...

as to labour reversing cuts, if we fool ourselves that this is the case then we are sadly deluding ourselves!!! people are advocating not voting at all, but some idiot will still put a cross in that box, and they will only need one vote in order to carry on regardless.....we need an alternative and we need it fast

[gregbythesea]

i have just re-read the piece posted, and the govts view is that the 'agreement' is that people in wrag group in order to keep receiving their full entitlement can be made to attend 'work' placements unlimited time period...what i cannot find unlike the JSA 'agreement' is where anyone who gets ESA has signed to say that in order to keep receiving payment they must perform these activities...there is some agreement about 'work focused interviews' but nothing about 'work placements' could this be a means of using the legislation in order to contest. or will they just close that loophole with a new form?

 

The 'loophole' as you so call it will be covered by a Statutory Instrument - put simply they can change the law as and when and how they like.

[gregbythesea]

under the new regs, you can be 'told' you must attend 'work focused interviews' or even be told that you 'must' go to work placements with unlimited weeks or lose benefit up to £71.00 per week....so it is not going to be the case of 'you could look into doing this' it is going to be 'you MUST look do this'

 

I think that the idea is to tie up the Work group claimants with the JSA claimants. It make complete sense if they were to make JSA & ESA one single benefit.

[gregbythesea]

Ridiculous. How can people then become well enough to work if all this pressure is being put on them? Yes, some could probably work if they had more help than JSA; but not this.

 

Let's be honest - well I will for a start and see where it takes us.

 

I get ESA (since Oct 09) been in the Support Group since Jan 10 for 3 years. Get DLA (HRM & MRC) + IIDB at 40% rate.

Having said that, I know full well that despite my problems I could for the majority of weeks work (doing something I am capable of ie desk job, computer etc) a full 40 hours. Other weeks maybe 16 hours.

 

They have found me incapable of work but am I? By their definition I am, but not in reality.

 

Is there anything wrong in me doing some work for my benefits?

[Nystagmite]

I think that the idea is to tie up the Work group claimants with the JSA claimants. It make complete sense if they were to make JSA & ESA one single benefit.

 

That makes no sense. The DWP have agreed that someone in WRAG has limited capability for work; but may be able to return to work soon. JSA claimants can work.

[RaeUK]

... They have found me incapable of work but am I? By their definition I am, but not in reality. ...

 

There is nothing to stop you looking for work whilst in the support group. If you feel you are able to do so then do it ...

[antone]

Let's be honest - well I will for a start and see where it takes us.

 

I get ESA (since Oct 09) been in the Support Group since Jan 10 for 3 years. Get DLA (HRM & MRC) + IIDB at 40% rate.

Having said that, I know full well that despite my problems I could for the majority of weeks work (doing something I am capable of ie desk job, computer etc) a full 40 hours. Other weeks maybe 16 hours.

 

They have found me incapable of work but am I? By their definition I am, but not in reality.

 

Is there anything wrong in me doing some work for my benefits?

 

Yes, there is something wrong with you doing work for your benefits - if someone expects you to do productive work for them, they should pay you at least NMW. Viewing the sick and unemployed as a potential source of indentured labour is odious in the extreme.

 

But of course, that isn't really the issue. There are probably quite a few people who, on a good week, could do 40 hours of work. And, well, they can go to an employer and say "Well, most weeks I could do the job, but some weeks I won't be able to. I won't know about this in advance, of course."

 

Wonder how well that will work for them.

[Nystagmite]

But of course, that isn't really the issue. There are probably quite a few people who, on a good week, could do 40 hours of work. And, well, they can go to an employer and say "Well, most weeks I could do the job, but some weeks I won't be able to. I won't know about this in advance, of course."

 

This is the issue I have. I would love to work; but how can I when I don't know how I'm going to be tomorrow? If my disabilities were static (ie, never change) then I might be able to work.

 

It's difficult enough some weeks volunteering 3 hours a week and studying for about 5.

[debt4get]

Let's be honest - well I will for a start and see where it takes us.

 

I get ESA (since Oct 09) been in the Support Group since Jan 10 for 3 years. Get DLA (HRM & MRC) + IIDB at 40% rate.

Having said that, I know full well that despite my problems I could for the majority of weeks work (doing something I am capable of ie desk job, computer etc) a full 40 hours. Other weeks maybe 16 hours.

 

They have found me incapable of work but am I? By their definition I am, but not in reality.

 

Is there anything wrong in me doing some work for my benefits?

greg if that is the case, why the hell did you bother claiming esa? you may as well have gone and got a job, as you say yourself quite proudly you are quite capable of earning a living by working....if you personally are capable and able to get a job then you are claiming this benefit dishonestly....i for one am not able to say i can give so many hours per week and say it quite honestly....i do not know from one week to the next whether i can make it to a job or not....

[estellyn]

Yes, there is something wrong with you doing work for your benefits - if someone expects you to do productive work for them, they should pay you at least NMW. Viewing the sick and unemployed as a potential source of indentured labour is odious in the extreme.

 

 

Indeed, completely agree.

 

Show us employers who will take on people who are unreliable due to illness, or need extensive accomodations due to their conditions - apart from places like remploy, I doubt they exist. In which case the government is saying, 'we know you can't get a job due to your condition, but we're going to cut your standard of living (which is poor anyway), and make you jump through hoops'. There aren't jobs for the healthy, able bodied, so what are the sick and disabled supposed to do. Be forced off benefits to......what???

[count orlok]

Be forced off benefits to......what???

 

Die, what else? Think of the savings to the NHS and pensions.

[estellyn]

greg if that is the case, why the hell did you bother claiming esa? you may as well have gone and got a job, as you say yourself quite proudly you are quite capable of earning a living by working....if you personally are capable and able to get a job then you are claiming this benefit dishonestly....i for one am not able to say i can give so many hours per week and say it quite honestly....i do not know from one week to the next whether i can make it to a job or not....

 

I'm in the support group, but wouldn't be able to make it to work any week - not even a few hours a day. As I said before, lying on my side I can use a laptop - if anyone has 16 hours a week of work I can do on my laptop at home - 16 hours of my choosing due to my illness, I'd be happy to do it, rather than claim ESA. I've been trying to think of self employed jobs I could do under these circumstances - any ideas?

[worried33]

I have 2 personal friends who one owns a business, the other used to own a business and now is a head chef at a restaurant.

 

Both wouldnt employ me, and the chef said he had to let someone go with a condition very similiar to me as he was a health and safety hazard with his condition.

 

All this stuff about ESA and work is to play to an end game of driving wages down and probably ultimately get rid of NMW or at least get round NMW.

[antone]

I'm in the support group, but wouldn't be able to make it to work any week - not even a few hours a day. As I said before, lying on my side I can use a laptop - if anyone has 16 hours a week of work I can do on my laptop at home - 16 hours of my choosing due to my illness, I'd be happy to do it, rather than claim ESA. I've been trying to think of self employed jobs I could do under these circumstances - any ideas?

 

All of this illustrates the mistake, deliberate or otherwise, being made here. The question that's relevant to people who are ill or disabled is not "Could you work under any circumstances?" but "Is there someone who would be prepared to employ you?" Because if no-one would actually give you a job, it's kinda academic to argue that there are jobs you could do.

[estellyn]

All of this illustrates the mistake, deliberate or otherwise, being made here. The question that's relevant to people who are ill or disabled is not "Could you work under any circumstances?" but "Is there someone who would be prepared to employ you?" Because if no-one would actually give you a job, it's kinda academic to argue that there are jobs you could do.

 

Absolutely, very well said.

 

We were watching dvd's of 'Lost' the other day, and my husband suddenly started laughing, he said he'd found a job, I and other esa claimants could do - inputting the numbers in the hatch every few hours - only one finger required, beds to lie down on in between, accomodation provided.

Edited September 5, 2012 by estellyn
spelling

[bigissue]

I am on ESA SG (limited time period) for a chronic pain condition which renders me bedridden for hours to days at a time depending on the severity of the episode. I do have good days, even days where I am fairly reasonable shape and I could potentially work on those days. My problem is that my condition flares up suddenly and at random and so I would not be able to say in advance when I could work, I might feel ok in the morning but be very ill by the afternoon. In addition to this "enviromental stress" is one of the biggest triggers for my condition so being in the work place itself would more than likely result in increased attacks. Now with these preconditions, my being ill so often and so unpredictably as well as the likelyhood for sickness taken if I actually do make it into work what employer, even one who is not having to pay me via a placement scheme would have me? My feeling is that should I be placed in the wrag I would be put on a placement anyway and when I fell ill or missed work, I would be sanctioned. They must know what is going to happen, so it is deliberate effort to put ill people in an impossible situation and then strip them of their benefits.

 

They have their paid off academics (see Malingering and illness deception) to back up their claims that being sick and disabled is just a "state of mind" that we feign because we get a poxy £120 a week, i.e. we are benefiting in some way from our perceived state of illness or disability. My illness has ruined my career, my social life, much of my personal life, my dreams of having kids and put a huge strain on my close family. I am in my mid 30's and I have no savings, no home, no pension, nothing. That is not what I saw for myself when I graduated University all those years ago. Being chronically ill isn't an easy way of life, if you show the pain you are in, the difficulties you are having to those around you it wears them down, it's too much for them but if you put a brave face on it and keep your pain to yourself they begin to think your ok and just shirking. You are desperatly trying to keep any shred of friendships you have left so grining and bearing the pain when a friend wants to meet up because you're scared if you cancel one more time you they just won't bother again. So yeah I go through all that just to get ESA, fat chance.

[SWLABR9]

Yes that's it exactly. Once ESA is so conditional as to be impossible to claim they can say no-one's claiming it and scrap it. This opens the market up to Unum, the American insurance company behind all this. Big bucks! We'll all be dead of course so it won't bother us. This is a criminal consipiracy between crooked businessmen and corrupt politicians. More about Unum's involvement in our intended demise here http://think-left.org/2011/11/22/welfare-reform-and-the-us-insurance-giant-unum/

[worried33]

I seen that timms guy on tv, in that video clip of the DWP debate. He is pretty good and focused on this issue.

 

He asked about the new descriptors that been drawn up, I think I have seen these descriptors somewhere but not sure if they the same ones, they look a lot better. However these have apparently been on the drawing board for over a year and he asked why such a large timescale and grayling's reply was that he is not keen on reworking the entire descriptors and more just wants to tweak it. This answer came after several MP's had previously stood up and told him how the existing system is unfit for purpose also after harrington did the same on the bbc.

[estellyn]

I seen that timms guy on tv, in that video clip of the DWP debate. He is pretty good and focused on this issue.

 

He asked about the new descriptors that been drawn up, I think I have seen these descriptors somewhere but not sure if they the same ones, they look a lot better. However these have apparently been on the drawing board for over a year and he asked why such a large timescale and grayling's reply was that he is not keen on reworking the entire descriptors and more just wants to tweak it. This answer came after several MP's had previously stood up and told him how the existing system is unfit for purpose also after harrington did the same on the bbc.

 

Were these what you were referring to?

 

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/breaking-news-possible-new-wca.html?spref=tw

[worried33]

yes I think so.