Arrow Global/Brian Carter court proceedings - need help!***Discontinued***

[DCAtarget]

Within my AQ (sectiom G) I wrote the following:

 

1 The Particulars of Claim provided by the Claimant are inadequate in order to fully appreciate the case I have to meet, in particular the agreement relied upon, the date on which it was made, the terms thereof and whether regulated and if so by what statutory provision, the means by which it was terminated, the manner by which the claim is calculated, its alleged assignment and the Claimant's entitlement to interest. Unless the Claimant have by 12/12/12 filed and served upon the Defendant fully particularized Particulars of Claim comprising but not limited to particulars of the agreement relied upon, the date on which it was made, the terms thereof and whether regulated and if so by what statutory provision, the means by which it was terminated, the manner by which the claim is calculated, its alleged assignment and the Claimant's entitlement to interest, I will make application for the claim to be struck out and the Defendant shall be at liberty without further order to apply to this court for judgement and for costs on the standard basis to be subject to detailed assessment proceedings if not agreed.

 

2 In the event of compliance with paragraph 1 of this order this case shall be allocated to the small claims track and there shall be a stay of proceedings until 09/01/13 to enable the parties to settle using the small claims mediation service.

 

As the first date has passed what if anything is my next step?

 

The hearing date is 19th Feb with a mediation appointment 1st week of Jan.

[AndyOrch]

Mediation should be attempted first DCA...if that fails then the DJ should direct taking into account your comments in G.

 

Andy

[DCAtarget]

Mediation should be attempted first DC...if that fails then the DJ should direct taking into account your comments in G.

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy, understood

[DCAtarget]

I had my mediation appointment today. Through mediation Arrow Global revealed the name of original creditor, date of account opening in 2004, defaulted date in 2005 and date of last payment made in 2008. They could also tell me the amount of last payment. They also told me they bought the account in Dec 2010.

 

They revealed that they did not yet have a copy of the original agreement but they would get it before the case.

 

They have also offered a £800 settlement figure. The amount alleged to be owed is circa £1100, likely to be circa £1300 if it went to court and I lost.

I am really after some advice as to whether anyone thinks I should accept offer. I asked for some time to think about it and said I would let them know tomorrow.

 

To further add a potential spanner in the works I have done some serious digging around some very old paperwork and found the following (scanner not working so it's as typed):

 

25th July 2008

 

Dear DCA Target

 

Thank you for your request for a signed copy of the relevant agreement under the Consumer Credit Act. I can now confirm that on this occassion we are unable to provide a copy of the signed agreement requested. We therefore return the £1.00 payment submitted in that connection.

 

We are now closing the account and returning it to our client.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Name

Moorcroft Debt Recovery

 

 

This followed a CCA request I made that year. They sold this on to AIC afterwards in Sept. that year who I wrote to saying account was in dispute. As outlined in very early posts not heard anything since.

Would this now have any bearing on the case bearing in mind I have submitted defense and AQ?

 

Really appreciate advise today if possible. As ever I am grateful for the help.

[AndyOrch]

Hi DC

 

The decision really is yours...nice settlement figure or decide to call their bluff and hope they cant produce an agreement.

 

They could still with the right DJ get a result on the balance of probabilities and the history they can produce.

 

You really are at the mercy of the DJ if he insists they disclose the agreement.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[DCAtarget]

Thanks Andy, I know predicting what a DJ is likely to do or think on the case is very difficult to predict and the decision on what to do next will of course be something I'll ultimately have to make myself, but what's your gut feeling on it? In essence what would you do in my shoes?

 

I didn't realise that the claimant had any chance of winning without a copy of the agreement so really glad I posted tonight for that fact alone. Thanks.

[dx100uk]

a few things -

 

IS THIS the natwest credit card you thought it was?

 

sthey are actually just offering £180 discount, as the debt itself is only £989.81

there is no way to know if this debt contains

PENALTY charges or PPI

 

IMHO, and i'm not legally minded

i would refuse the offer

 

can you use the fact of SAR non compliance

to extend things again or swing the judge

 

they must have a statement of account

 

if not , how can they be offering a discount - me thinks they know all too well.

 

my thougthts only.

dx

[AndyOrch]

I agree with DX the strength and nature of the dispute will add weight along with the age of the agreement.If its pre 2007 then they must produce the agreement to enforce.Me personally ...reading between the lines .....would call their bluff..... if you also have other matters to dispute apart from the missing CCA.

 

Andy

[DCAtarget]

Hi Dx,

 

It is the Natwest account I'd suspected. Although the debt is £989.XX it's a little higher due to solicitors costs and court fees which have been added to account. I'm pretty sure there is no PPI on the account although it's possible there could be charges on there.

[dx100uk]

they are offering a discount for areason

 

i'd doubt it because of no CCA.

 

have you had no statements or a statement of account at all?

 

dx

[DCAtarget]

Hi,

 

The account was opened in 2004, so just to be clear are you saying they would need a copy of the agreement to win in court? They couldn't win on balance of probability??

 

I made a request for the credit agreement to Moorcroft back in 2008 and stopped paying as they were unable to produce a copy. The account was in then in dispute, didn't hear anything from Arrow who apparently bought this in 2010 until they brought the case in the summer of last year.

 

Although I suspected it related to Natwest account this was not mentioned in the POS or any communication from AG. I've had no statements or statement of account from AG and they have not answered my requests made under the CPRs which included a request for a copy of the agreement, dafault etc.

 

I SAR'd Natwest back in August and finally they are starting to comply -- they have so far just sent me the personal details they have on me (name address etc), not agreement copies etc however I understand they send things in stages.

 

Dx - What reason do you think they are offering a discount if you doubt it's because of no CCA?

[AndyOrch]

Pre 2007 means they cant rely on a reconstituted version however it all depends on the DJ on the day re original agreement and or balance of probabilities.If he follows the law it should be thrown out ...probably the reason for discount and mediation.

[DCAtarget]

I know nobody can make the decision for me but I still don't know what I should do. Every time I make a decision I change my mind a few mins later..... I hate myself sometimes.

[citizenB]

This will be in small claims, so costs would be limited..

[DCAtarget]

Thanks for your patience and advise everyone. I made the decision not to accept the settlement.

 

Sorry about yesterday - I got myself in a state not helped by drinking too much!

[Mike_hawk]

Hi Dcat

 

Just got your PM, tbh I'd probably do the same but then its relatively low in quantum and possible costs exposure........ and it would be my money I'd be gambling with.

 

As the others have pointed out its pre 2007 so the original agreement should be required, whether you can convince the dj of that is another matter entirely. You just need to get your ducks in a row and feel confident in countering the other sides argument if it progresses to trial.

 

Just wondering whether it would serve any purpose to send a s78 dispute to them now with reference to Moorcrofts response in 2008. If nothing else it gives you a further reference point to bring to the courts attention in your w/s.

[dx100uk]

look at it from the points solely being reliant only on what has come thru THEM toward the case

 

no statement of account.

no idea WHAT the debt is.

failure to provide ANY paperwork on the debt.

 

add to this list

 

dx

[DCAtarget]

Thanks guys. I think sending a S78 dispute to Arrow relating to the letter from Moorcroft is a good idea. Would the draft letter below do the job do you think? Also, should I copy in the court do you think?

 

Re: Arrow Global Limited v DCATarget. Case No: XXXXXXXX

Your Ref: ARR/XXXXXXXX

Account number: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

 

I refer to the enclosed letter dated (28th July 2008) in which Moorcroft confirm that they were unable to comply with my formal request pursuant to s.78(1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

However, despite the account being in default, you have made an unlawful demand for payment contrary to s.78(6) of the CCA 1974 and the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR).

 

I note that the Credit Services Association, in the first paragraph of its Code, state that members must act lawfully at all times. Furthermore, under the CPUTR 2008 failing to comply with a code of conduct to which you have subscribed is unfair trading.

[citizenB]

Sounds ok to me

[Mike_hawk]

Hi Dcat

 

Looks OK to me too, no need to copy the court. Probably sensible to send rec del and retain proof of posting, you can file copy with your witness statement if required at a future date.

[DCAtarget]

Great, thanks guys. Appreciate it as ever

 

Will get it posted tomorrow recorded del as suggested. Court date just over a month now and already starting to get a bit nervous so no doubt I'll be back here again panicking about something else sometime soon.

[DCAtarget]

Hi, it's less than 2 weeks to go till court date. Not heard from court with regard to directions in section G of my AQ or from AG. Still not had a response to my requests under CPR. Have heard from OC that they dont have a record of any credit card account with them following my SAR, however they do say I should let them know previous address (despite this being in original letter to them with account number).

Anyone advise on what I should do? Should I have heard anything by now? This will be my first time going to court so still a bit unsure of things.

 

Thanks, as ever.

[AndyOrch]

Hi DCA

 

You wont hear anything with regards to directions this is a Small Claims Track case AQ N149...you cant request Directions...you can suggest them but the DJ runs the show in SCT...allocating and directing.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[DCAtarget]

Ok thanks Andy.

 

Finally then, my case is being heard in just over a weeks time. Anyone got any general advice or tips to help things go smoothly?

 

Still not heard anything else from AG. Is it normal that they wouldn't send me anything they are wanting to rely on in court? I have still not received a copy of the agreement or anything else from them relating the account in question. Will this in itself help my case?

 

Sorry for all the questions but I really am grateful for your time.

[citizenB]

Ok thanks Andy.

 

Finally then, my case is being heard in just over a weeks time. Anyone got any general advice or tips to help things go smoothly?

 

Still not heard anything else from AG. Is it normal that they wouldn't send me anything they are wanting to rely on in court? I have still not received a copy of the agreement or anything else from them relating the account in question. Will this in itself help my case?

 

Sorry for all the questions but I really am grateful for your time.

 

Just be yourself - go smartly dressed (this isnt an excuse to go and splash out on a new outfit, just dont turn up in a tracksuit!!)

 

Make sure you have all your original paperwork, such as it is as you havent been provided with anything and as far as I can see, you are still not even sure who the original creditor is or what this debt is. You certainly know for sure you didnt entere into an agreement with Arrow Global and no one has advised you who the OC was. You have not received a Notice of Assignment from Arrow at any time.

 

You should type up for yourself some notes, perhaps if you can anticipate some of the questions so you can have your responses to hand.

 

Organise what paperwork you do have so you can find it easy. Judges will expect nerves - what they are looking for is honesty in replies. Try not to interrupt either the Judge or the opposition. It can be very tempting to sometimes !!

 

The Judge will ask the opposition to speak first as it is their claim - then he will ask for your side of things.