Added to defence for a case between an employer and a former employee..HELP!!!

[shan7-8-6]

Hey everbody,

 

Im stuck and I have no idea what to do. Basically back in 2009 I hired a van with a driver from a company (usual van hire company, locally based not a national company). Me and a friend bought a load of dental chairs that were on pallets, and basically we had to pick them up from a joinery shop, put them into the van and then offload them at a storage unit I had taken over. At the time of hiring the van I told the company the chairs were approximately 80kg, but I realised they were heavier when we got there (probably around 120kg each). But either way we did not have to physically lift them, we used pallet trucks to manouver them. The driver stayed in the van at all times, and only used a pallet truck to manouver the chairs and place them where he thought best in the back of the truck (he was obv trained and had done this sort of stuff on a daily basis). We got this all done within 2 days, and at no point did he ever say he was injured etc, he even came and picked some food that my mum had made for him.

 

However, he is now claiming against the van company, that he injured himself during that trip. So the van company family members approached me (harassed really, as they kept turning up at my house and workplace) and said they would need a statement from me, and that I would not have to go to court etc, so me being naive helped with that and signed a statement they had made (not a statement of truth though). There insurance did not cover the driver to drive off the premises so if they lose they will have to pay out themselves. Then the van company's solictitor turned up at my work and said sign a statement of truth, I said thats fine, but just asked again that I would not have to go to court, and he said I may be compelled to! At which point I refused to sign the statement. He then left and I heard nothing from him.

 

I then received a letter from the claimants solicitors asking me for my insurance etc I just didnt reply (stupidly) and then i received another letter saying I had to attend court as they were trying to have the judge add me a second defendant. I was like what have I got myself into!

 

Court day was today, I went myself (cant afford a solicitor), I thought the judge would understand and know its utter bull that they can add a customer to a case where I was not the employer. The defendant had a barrister turn up, the judge asked him to say what he had to say. He spoke about why I should be added, mentioned that the van company may have to close so they may not get any money from them, but that they may get money from me (like I was some sort of guarantor even though im broke and have defaults on my name!). The judge listened to my side for like 2 mins, I told her how I was just a customer, and gave an example, something along the lines of this> Just say I was going to post something at the post office, I pay for the service and now lets just say the person handling the parcel hurts his/her back, how does that make me as a customer, liable? After I was done, she basically moved on and had already made her mind up to add me to the case! I was fuming, but obviously I kept calm because I was in the county court. The judge had made her mind up before I'd even got into the room! Now they started talking and she asked would 2 weeks be okay to get a defence together, I was going away for a week, so I said no so she has given me 3 weeks to submit a defence?! I asked her what I should do if I cant afford a solicitor, she said to represent myself!

 

Now I have no idea what to do, my friend (who was with me the whole time of the actual delivery process) said he would happily be a witness for me. But what do I do now?

 

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, and now I know why my parents always told me never get involved with this sort of stuff, law is a dirty game.

 

This has really really put me on a downer, really lost as to what I should do. Please help anyone.

 

Thanks

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I'm moving your thread to the legal forum, which I think is where you should get help, and will send you a link.

 

My best, HB

[shan7-8-6]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I'm moving your thread to the legal forum, which I think is where you should get help, and will send you a link.

 

My best, HB

 

Thanks HB, hopefully someone can help me with this!

[Ganymede]

Hi,

 

I think you need to go to the CAB or manage to get some legal advice as most people on here are used to defending money claims, not personal injury claims.

 

What allegations/reasons did the 1st Defendant state in their application for adding you to the claim?

 

Have you seen a copy of the Claimant's Particulars of Claim?

 

Thanks

[stu007]

Hi

 

Just some thing you may wish to request from the company you hired vehicle with driver from: (NOTE dont do this right away get advice first as you may need to request these documents via the court procedure - others will be able to advise on that)

 

1. Health & Safety Policy & Procedure.

2. Manual Handling Training dates and where training took place for employees in van. (If the employee has not had any manual handling training from the employer and there work involves manual handling then employer also at fault for not training).

3. Risk Assessment carried out by company for services employed by you.

4. Copy of RIDDOR Report that would have been sent to HSE.

5. Copy of Accident Book report for this employee injury. (All accidents as this happened during work time would need to be logged in the companies Accident Book)

6. Who is the Companies Public Liability Insurance Company.

7. What Risk Assessment did the Employee take before moving the equipment.

8. Why did the employee not report this injury at the time.

 

What exactly were the service you employed this company to carry out and do you have a contract/agreement?

Edited July 4, 2012 by stu007

[shan7-8-6]

What exactly were the service you employed this company to carry out and do you have a contract/agreement?

 

Has said employee made a claim against his employer and if NO why not?

 

Hi,

I asked the company for a truck and driver (since i did not have a driving license at the time) and also the driver to help out with the loading onto the actual truck. I was doing it as an individual and never kept any records of it, because I never thought I would need them. And yes the said employee has made a claim against his employer already. I have attached a link to images I scanned with the reasons they gave to add me on to the case and also:

 

 

 

And here are the "particulars of negligence":

 

 

 

Hope this helps

[shan7-8-6]

Anybody???

[shan7-8-6]

Bump...

[Ganymede]

Has this not been resolved yet?

 

I don't understand how you can be added as a 2nd Defendant in this case...

[shan7-8-6]

Nope...here is an update of whats gone on so far:

 

The claimants solicitors sent me all the documents relevant to the case (massive bundle mostly crap that was not relevant to my defence). The claimants initial witness statement he says that the chair was on the tail lift and that "grabbed the chair to stop it falling and he felt a sharp pain in his groin” in his supplementary statement he says the chair was half on the tail lift and half in the van and that he “grabbed the chair and it fell and pinned him against the side of the van. He's obviously lying.

 

I submitted my defence that I had to complete myself by the date that was given (I got some help off a friend that's studying law). The solicitors firms I went to said the case would cost in the region of 7-12k; not money I have lying around. Would I be able to post my defence up (without names, dates and case number etc)?

I then submitted my witness statements along with 2 documents I was going to rely on in court and also sent a copy of this to the claimants solicitors and handed a copy into the court before the deadline I had been given.

 

Ok now to the "listing questionnaire" I was expecting the court to send this out to me so I waited and waited and it never turned up and I missed the date to hand in my Listing Questionnaire which was meant to be handed in on the 18th August. So on the 20th August I received 2 letters (both dated on the 20th August), one was a "N24 Standard order for failure to file listing questionnaires" which said I had till the 28th August to hand the Listing Questionnaire in, that was fine and I handed that form in on the 28th (had to pester the girl at the court desk to help me fill it out). But I also received a "N17 Judgement for Claimant (amount to be decided by the court)" which was strange since my defence had not been struck out and I had till the 28th August to hand my Listing Questionnaire in. All he judgment just says "It is ordered that the defendant must pay the claimant an amount which the court will decide, and costs.", it does not have the name of the judge and there is no reason as to why judgment has been made before the trial has happened.

 

So I rang the court the same day (20th August), the lady I spoke to said the case had only just been sent up to the Judge to be looked at, and that the N17 must be a mistake if I had also been sent out a N24 which gave me will the 28th to submit my defence and that the judge was only just looking through the case.

 

With the Listing Questionnaire I submitted to the court I also wrote a letter asking why a judgment had been made when my defence had not been struck out and I had met all the deadlines I had been given. I have had no response since I handed that in (That was handed in on the 28th August).

 

Also I received a copy of the listing questionnaire from the claimants solicitors, so far the base costs for the claimant are £50k and estimated future base costs are £20k. This made me actually laugh.

 

So I'm really lost at the moment because if judgement has already been made why would I be made to file paperwork if I've already lost?

 

Can I have the judgement set aside? If so how would I go about doing that, is there some sort of form I need to fill out?

[unclebulgaria67]

Edit----- I think the court made a mistake issuing the judgement. Get them to confirm this and therefore you don't need to set aside.

My take on this, is that you may be liable, if they can prove that the injury was caused during the time this person worked for you. You were their employer and should have carried out relevant health and safety assessments, to make sure the work could be carried out safely. You did not pass on a liability to the van company who provided a driver, unless the contract passed on any health and safety obligations.

 

If this friend was not employed by you and they were actually a partner in this business venture, then I would have a different opinion.

 

Were you their employer and what evidence of this exists ?

 

When did the defendent first make this claim for PI ?

 

What evidence have they supplied that the cause of their PI, was this work task in 2009 ?

 

Has this person had any other types of employment from the date of this alleged work injury in 2009, until the date this claim for PI was first made ?

 

Has the claimant participated in any sports or adventurous activities between the alleged date of injury and the date the claim for PI was first submitted ?

 

What you need to do is hold them to strict proof that this PI was caused by this work task in 2009 and that you were their employer.

 

If you don't raise these questions and any more that you can add, then you could lose. Suggest that you send a part 18 letter to the solcitiors acting for the claimant probing their claim.

[shan7-8-6]

Edit----- I think the court made a mistake issuing the judgement. Get them to confirm this and therefore you don't need to set aside.

My take on this, is that you may be liable, if they can prove that the injury was caused during the time this person worked for you. You were their employer and should have carried out relevant health and safety assessments, to make sure the work could be carried out safely. You did not pass on a liability to the van company who provided a driver, unless the contract passed on any health and safety obligations.

 

If this friend was not employed by you and they were actually a partner in this business venture, then I would have a different opinion.

 

Were you their employer and what evidence of this exists ?

 

When did the defendent first make this claim for PI ?

 

What evidence have they supplied that the cause of their PI, was this work task in 2009 ?

 

Has this person had any other types of employment from the date of this alleged work injury in 2009, until the date this claim for PI was first made ?

 

Has the claimant participated in any sports or adventurous activities between the alleged date of injury and the date the claim for PI was first submitted ?

 

What you need to do is hold them to strict proof that this PI was caused by this work task in 2009 and that you were their employer.

 

If you don't raise these questions and any more that you can add, then you could lose. Suggest that you send a part 18 letter to the solcitiors acting for the claimant probing their claim.

 

 

He carried on working at the van company for a few weeks. The first time he went to any medical practitioner was 14/09/09 (he has a doctors note saying don't go to work for 6 weeks) after the supposed incident, he went to the A & E because he said the lump in his groin had become painful and that he was too shy to have gone earlier, and it turned out to be a hernia (something that occurs in 25% of all men, my father and a friend have both had them).

 

I was never his employer and he himself has stated that in his witness statement, I was just another customer. I was not an employer and I alone was the one buying the chairs and my friend was just helping me out as he owed me a favour. I at no time paid the driver.

 

He was instructed that he would require to take straps and a pallet truck with him on the jobsheet the van company had supplied him with. The van company has submitted documents saying they had trained the employees in manual handling and a sheet was given stating exactly what that involved. It states that if the driver has any doubts about the load that he must contact the office, and that training for both manual handling and how to use a pallet truck and ropes/straps is also given.

[unclebulgaria67]

y

He carried on working at the van company for a few weeks. The first time he went to any medical practitioner was 14/09/09 (he has a doctors note saying don't go to work for 6 weeks) after the supposed incident, he went to the A & E because he said the lump in his groin had become painful and that he was too shy to have gone earlier, and it turned out to be a hernia (something that occurs in 25% of all men, my father and a friend have both had them).

 

I was never his employer and he himself has stated that in his witness statement, I was just another customer. I was not an employer and I alone was the one buying the chairs and my friend was just helping me out as he owed me a favour. I at no time paid the driver.

 

He was instructed that he would require to take straps and a pallet truck with him on the jobsheet the van company had supplied him with. The van company has submitted documents saying they had trained the employees in manual handling and a sheet was given stating exactly what that involved. It states that if the driver has any doubts about the load that he must contact the office, and that training for both manual handling and how to use a pallet truck and ropes/straps is also given.

 

Ah, in that case, I cannot see how you are liable. This does not relate to you being in business. You could have been a normal member of the public moving some items of furniture in or out of storage. It would have been up to the claimant to have made the health and safety assessment, so that he did not get injured. I cannot see that his employer than van company are liable either. The injury was caused due a mistake by the claimant.

 

In view of the amount involved, see if you qualify for any legal aid.

 

http://www.legalservices.gov.uk/public/community_legal_advice.asp

[shan7-8-6]

Lol you had me worried there, it's the first time anybody has said I may be actually liable. Everyone has said that if this is the case, I would be liable for lets say a postal worker who happened to be carrying my parcel and decided to make a claim against me. Losing this would set a strange precedent that could be used in the future.

 

I'm going to go and see the local solicitors that the legalservices website recommends to try to get some help, hopefully I'll get some, if not I'm basically screwed, because although I was able to write a defence and submit witness statements, the laws and terms used in court will be a little much for someone that's never done anything to do with law, especially when they'll have barristers acting for them.

[unclebulgaria67]

Have you thought about phoning the Health & Safety Executive to find out information. Don't mention the court case, but just say that you are paying a Van company and their driver to move items for you, but someone has raised a concern about H&S issues, in regard to whether you can be held liable. Ask them whether there is any information or legislation that you can look up on the Health and Safety Executive site which might be worth reading.