Employer wants 3 years of salary back!!! - ** Case struck out **

[Gbarbm]

I really can't see your ex employer getting anywhere with this to be honest, seems like he's had a fit of pique and us being vexatious.

One thing you might want to put to the solicitor is this;

When an employer pays wages to an employee, he obviously has a statutory obligation to deduct PAYE income tax and Class 1 National Insurance on amounts above the threshold. These deductions are remitted to HMRC by 19th if each month (or 22nd if paying electronically)

I note per the court papers that he is attempting to recover the tax and employers NI and yet also appears to be attempting to recover the gross pay as well.

Now, he can't have the penny and the bun, he can only recover the NET pay from you. The tax and NI are already in HMRC coffers so he should

be recovering that from them and not you because you don't have it do you.

Now call me an old cynic, but I wonder if he's trying to recover it from you and HMRC as well! As I say, mention thus to your solicitor, as I am sure he/she will find the information useful.

By the way, hope your daughter has a wonderful wedding day.

 

Post back here if you need any help, advice or support.

 

Kind regards

Gbarbm

[oldmanmille]

I thought I was quite intelligent but I never thought once about this and of course you are a 1000% correct - of course! When i left last October they owed a huge bill to HMRC as well as about 100 creditiors massing up to about 1.2m in debt but I am sure they have reduced that in 6 mths (not!)...

 

I really dont have any other choice than to engage solicitor and thank you for the advise and comments. My wife also would like to thank you and the others as she is really struggling with all of this as she knows how much I put into this company and now treated like something on the bottom of their shoes!

[Gbarbm]

You're welcome, that's what we are here for.

Keep us posted with any developments

 

Kind regards

Gbarbm

[numbers666]

 

I really dont have any other choice than to engage solicitor and thank you for the advise and comments. My wife also would like to thank you and the others as she is really struggling with all of this as she knows how much I put into this company and now treated like something on the bottom of their shoes!

 

Please tell your wife not to worry, you appear to have all the required paperwork to see this off, please keep us updated with the solicitors thoughts and eventual outcome, which i am sure will be a dismissal.

 

Kind regards

 

N

[ms_smith]

Did it now pdf attached, thanks

 

Your former employer must be very desperate to intimidate you...

 

Is this claim even real? Is it not a fake or something?

 

 

I wouldn't hesitate to start proceedings for harassment for this claim alone (first instance when he formed an intentionally untrue accusations; second when he decided to submit them in a court claim to you) and defamation.

[becky2585]

Reading this with interest.

 

I never like to comment on these type of matters (just for info, usually an employment lawyer wouldn't deal with this type of claim and you'd need a litigation lawyer) because it's beyond what I can ordinarily help with. However, this one has me truly baffled.

 

I would suggest its worth seeking legal advice. Your legal fees will be paid by the other side (providing they don't go insolvent) if they lose, so you may not have anything to lose. Also, a lot of commercial litigation lawyers may do a no win no fee agreement.

 

I am rather surprised that Ny employer would embark on such a scandalous claim, and I'm sure no Judge would entertain it, for what it's worth.

[honeybee13]

Hello OMM.

 

I've just unapproved your pdf in the post following #14 [thread has been renumbered because I took the post out]. Gbarm has pointed out that the employer's details are still visible and it seemed the right thing to remove the name in order to protect you.

 

If you feel the need to repost the document, please take out the employer's name.

 

My best, HB

[LaughingGirl]

Your former employer must be very desperate to intimidate you...

 

Is this claim even real? Is it not a fake or something?

 

 

I wouldn't hesitate to start proceedings for harassment for this claim alone (first instance when he formed an intentionally untrue accusations; second when he decided to submit them in a court claim to you) and defamation.

 

While I agree that if this is a vexatious claim (and I can't see how it isn't), the former employer shouldn't get away scott free, I'm not sure that there's much point in starting proceedings against him given the OP's assessment of his financial standing. I think by the time the taxman has finished with him and his creditors have taken their slice (of nothing, probably), there's going to be very little left for compensation payouts. I just don't think it's worth Oldmanmille going to all the trouble of making a claim when all he's likely to get is the bill for the enforcement.

 

Oldmanmille will obviously know better than me if there is reason to doubt that his employer will be bankrupt in the near future, but unless he knows he has has a spare 1.2 million floating about it's probably not worth the trouble.

[papasmurf1cx]

Not sure if this has been put into the mix, but if there is no merit to the claim against you as seems to be the thinking, and you and your wife are owed under the employment contract, there may be a case for a counterclaim too. I agree suitable legal advice is needed from a qualified solicitor.

[oldmanmille]

Firtsly all your comments are very much appreciated and whilst it is a big worry for both of us I am hanging on to the feelings that I have done nothing wrong - only to believe the company owner who has turned out to be a horrible individual - what hey ho, life goes on.

 

So, I took all the advice and sought legal advice. I tried 5 solicitors and two said it fell in between employment and civil. All of therm said they were baffled at why he is clainming this especially mentioning dfismissal when both of us resigned and we have letters of acceptance etc for this. I also forgot to mention that the MD actually signed a reference for me - how bizarre!

 

Anyway, youi are probably going to slate me for this but hearing the fees from weach of the soilicitors has made me realise I cannot afford to take on a solicitor and yes you may feel this is crazy. However, due to taking 20k drop in salary plus losing my wifes salary and still having all my debts I hope you can understand. each solicitor said that if it goes to court it will cost me circa 9k to defend. I wont get all of my fees back but probably about 90%. I just dont have the money and to be honest my ex employer would probably pay it back at 100/mth - if that!

 

So, i am going to see citizens advice on Friday to get their take on it and see if there are any solicitors that can offer no win no fee arrangement or comething that will assist me. My intention is to claim against them once this part is over with as they have admitted commission in the claim that they once denied owing me!

 

I am curently trying to stop one of my sons from 'visiting' people if you know what I mean!!

 

I dearent drink anymore wine as it givinjg me a bad head in the mornings but at least this goes away for the few hours of the red stuff

[Gbarbm]

I see that your ex employer is going to represent himself (no solicitors details on court claim form)

There is no reason why you can't do likewise, I appreciate that it's a daunting prospect. I have done it myself in the past against a large public body and I won't lie to you, it was very stressful.

I think it's important that you get a defence in and the no win/no fee lawyer sounds like a good idea.

Just get the phone book out and get ringing!

As you say you have done nothing wrong and what's not to say that if you do put in a counterclaim stating that you are going to defend the claim in full on the grounds that it has no reasonable prospect of suffering and is an abuse of the court process.

[Gbarbm]

Sorry for suffering read success - this bl***y iPod does my head in

[oldmanmille]

Sorry for suffering read success - this bl***y iPod does my head in

 

I like suffering instead of success lol...

[oldmanmille]

I see that your ex employer is going to represent himself (no solicitors details on court claim form)

There is no reason why you can't do likewise, I appreciate that it's a daunting prospect. I have done it myself in the past against a large public body and I won't lie to you, it was very stressful.

I think it's important that you get a defence in and the no win/no fee lawyer sounds like a good idea.

Just get the phone book out and get ringing!

As you say you have done nothing wrong and what's not to say that if you do put in a counterclaim stating that you are going to defend the claim in full on the grounds that it has no reasonable prospect of suffering and is an abuse of the court process.

 

I didnt notice that about representing himself - now that should be interesting and when I get the court date I will post it as it will be well worth you all coming and watching it as this guy never ever did anything himself he always got me to do his dirty work for him. He would say one thing in front of a person and then get me to sack them - and I am being serious - so him in court defending his actions will be a classic. He will be used to court anyway as he got to defend himself on fraud charges anyway soon for something he himself has done!

 

I think I had better read this claim form again so I can see what you are seeing

[Gbarbm]

Glad I made you smile with my smelling (sorry - spelling) mistakes

[andydd]

As I mentioned above, it may be worth giving consideration to Summary Judgment and/or Strike Out, these are procedures designed to throw out vexatious/misguided claims at an early stage before either side has incurred high costs.

 

As soon as you apply a hearing will be set up (before any AQ hearing and/or case managemnet/directions or hearing itself), where you will have to prove that the claim has no legal basis (the POC doesnt state any recognisable course of action) and shouldnt be allowed to proceed.

 

There is a slight risk in SJ/Strike Outs in that if there is a very small possibility that the claimant has a claim then it will continue to a full hearing, however I note from comments above that the claimant is represented himself, this reduces the risk substantailly becuase all he will be able to claim is some fixed costs and maybe his time (but only at the £18 LiP rate).

 

It may also be that if he continues as an LiP, a SJ/SO hearing will throw him completely and he wont know how to proceed.

 

Andy

[LaughingGirl]

There's also the possibility that he's doing this in the half-hearted hope that you'll be scared into burying your head and not defending in the first place - it could be that once he realises that he's going to have to make a case in court he'll be less keen to pursue this.

[andydd]

There's also the possibility that he's doing this in the half-hearted hope that you'll be scared into burying your head and not defending in the first place - it could be that once he realises that he's going to have to make a case in court he'll be less keen to pursue this.

 

I agree, although worryingly he's already spent £500 on issuing the claim and there will be more costs to come, but maybe he has more money than sense, also if the OP employs a solicitor those copsts could be very large.

 

I note though that if neither side has legal representation the costs risk is actually quite low even if the case proceeds to the multi-track.

 

Andy

[caledfwlch]

I wonder if this is an attempt to negate/reduce the back pay/commission the OP says he is owed, too.

 

From all the information presented so far, I suspect a Cat could successfully defend the claim!

 

This really is completely mental

[oldmanmille]

I wonder if this is an attempt to negate/reduce the back pay/commission the OP says he is owed, too.

 

From all the information presented so far, I suspect a Cat could successfully defend the claim!

 

This really is completely mental

LOL...I agree...I went to CAB this morning and they have made n appointment for me to see their legal advisor but that is not until 21st and I have to have the defence in for 25th but I have prepared it all so no problem I think!

 

The more and more I read over it and meditate on it I am more determined to fight it tooth and nail.

 

I notice in the defence papaers/document that the claimant must make every effort to meet with me or appoint a mediator to meet with me and if not has to show to the judge why he hasnt. He of course alos has to pay another 220.00 for the document he now has to fill in and if a meeting with a mediator then some more money. This will be interesting!

 

Tanks again for everyones comments...

[andydd]

Sounds like you are on the right path. Dont be too surprised if you end up knowing more than CAB's legal advisor, whilst they are a greatr organisation,. often their advisors have limited knowledge and are good at offering general advice they sometimes struggle a bit with complex cases.

 

I wouldnt put much hope in the mediation, in my opinion Judges dont put that much emphasis on turning it down but it is of course something you could bring up when the issue of costs arises.

 

It may be worth looking at the provisions of CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 to request documents/evidence that you wish to see to help with your defence.

 

It also worth looking at the provisions of CPR24 (Summary Judgment) and CPR 3.4 (Strike Out), the time for this is after your defence but (ideally) before allocation.

 

It also goes without saying, keep a not of the time you spend on this case, you should be able to claim your costs using the LiP £18 per hour rate and also add on disbursments (postage, travel, etc).

 

Andy

[Gbarbm]

Regarding the mediation (or alternative dispute resolution) as Andy says failure to attempt mediation will be taken into account by the district judge when considering/awarding costs.

A good case which illustrates this is Dunnett v Railtrack; this is where the judge awarded costs to the losing party (Dunnett) because of Railtracks litigation by intimidation and their out of hand dismissal of mediation.

[oldmanmille]

Hi, I have been away and now going through form N244 which is I believe the form for CPR3.4 Strike out - is this correct?

 

Based on this form being correct I have a few questions about it that i am hoping you can help me with: So from the numbering of the form we have:

 

1. Simple

2. Simple

3. Asking 'What order are you asking the court to make and why?' I have put here '' The claim is both vexatious and false. Neither defendants were dismissed from employment - both employees resigned and acknowledged as such by xxxxx Limited Directors.

The claim is false and fraudulent in both content and intent. The Managing Director, xxxxx, has a known vendetta against defendant xxxxx

4. Asking - Have you attached a draft of the order you are applying for? - what is this?

5. Asking - How do you want to have tghis appliocation dealt with? - I have put '' without a hearing'' - is this correct?

6. How long do you think the hearing will last? - I have put 1 hour - yes/no?

7. Give details of any fixed trial date or period - i am leaving blank as there isnt any.

8. What level of judge does your hearing need? - what should i put here?

9. Who should be served with this application? - what do I put here?

10. Information - easy enough!

[gordies]

Hi, I have been away and now going through form N244 which is I believe the form for CPR3.4 Strike out - is this correct?

 

Based on this form being correct I have a few questions about it that i am hoping you can help me with: So from the numbering of the form we have:

 

1. Simple

2. Simple

3. Asking 'What order are you asking the court to make and why?' I have put here '' The claim is both vexatious and false. Neither defendants were dismissed from employment - both employees resigned and acknowledged as such by xxxxx Limited Directors.

The claim is false and fraudulent in both content and intent. The Managing Director, xxxxx, has a known vendetta against defendant xxxxx

4. Asking - Have you attached a draft of the order you are applying for? - what is this?

5. Asking - How do you want to have tghis appliocation dealt with? - I have put '' without a hearing'' - is this correct?

6. How long do you think the hearing will last? - I have put 1 hour - yes/no?

7. Give details of any fixed trial date or period - i am leaving blank as there isnt any.

8. What level of judge does your hearing need? - what should i put here?

9. Who should be served with this application? - what do I put here?

10. Information - easy enough!

 

 

3. in here goes - STRIKE OUT ORDER as the applicant has no prospect of winning etc etc etc.

4. YES - this is to confirm you are attaching a Strike Out Order

5. Without a hearing is fine as the Judge will either grant the strike out or set out an allocation questionnaire

6. Can be left blank as you don't want a hearing

8. County Court Judge

9. The applicants details in here

 

A strike our order is where you detail what you want to happen, in this case that the claim be struck out as having no justification and it being vexatious etc If you need help with a Strike Out Order then please shout.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Gordies

[andydd]

Its normally wise to apply for both summary judgment and strike out at same time. The two scenarios kind of cross over and its common to apply for both jointly.

 

You should mention you are applying under CPR 24.2 (Sum Jud - No prospect of Success)

 

and

 

CPR 3.4 92) (a) - (Strike Out - No reasonable ground to bring case)

 

Personally i'd choose WITH a hearing just so you can answer any questions put forward (although in theory both SJ and Strike Out hearing are generally just done on paperwork before judge but it may be handy to be there, but upto you)

 

Also if you are doing SJ, dont forget to include the CPR 24.5 info, telling other side they must file evidence 7 days before hearing.

 

SSooooooooooo. Last Monday I went to my SJ/Strike Out hearing, it went just as I planned, Judge struck out their case for abuse of process (it was attaempt at re-litigation), I found it easy to win becuase the other side ignored CPR 24.5 and didnt file evidence so Judge wasnt plaesed, I got costs too..only £280 (I applied for £900) but was a bit annoyed beacuse Judge didnt know about new litigant in person rate.

 

Andy