Egg/Moorcroft/Bryancarter No CCA *** Claim Discontinued***

[marcander]

Thanks so much for that,

 

Will update,

 

M.

[Julia Roberts]

sub

[marcander]

I am in the process of completing my AQ having still not received any documents/evidence in reply to my CPR request. I did however, receive a copy of the claimant's AQ sent to me directly from the claimant. The boxes have been ticked but no further information in the details box. Also when I received the notification of change of solicitor from Bryncartr to their own in-house paralegal I did a bit of homework and the one of claimants staff was recently presented with an award after taking a £600 paralegal "debt recovery" course. That same person has signed the claimants AQ so at least I know who I am dealing with.

 

Will copy my AQ on here this week.

 

regards and thanks to all.

 

M.

[marcander]

Have today received a letter from BRynn cartr informing me that they are no longer instructed in this matter (which I already knew). I wonder if I should re submit a CPR request directly to Arroowwglobaal?

M.

[AndyOrch]

I would marc.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Agreed.

 

Make sure yo address it to the Compliance Manager,

otherwise it is likely to get mired in costomer (dis) service.

[marcander]

After sending my proposal (thank you caggers) I have received a General Form of Judgement of Order from my local court. Basically agreeing my proposal. "It is ordered that

1/the claimant shall by 4pm on 21st june12 serve fully parts' etc to enable the def' to know the case he must meet.

 

2/ the def shall by 4pm on 12th july12 serve fully particularised defence etc. the matter will be referred by a judge for allocation.

 

So, I am to serve my full defence only after I have received all the evidence the claimant will rely on. Evidence and docs that have I have been requesting for almost four months under C.P.R.

 

I am happy with that.

 

Will update as and when.

 

regards to all

 

Marc.

[marcander]

Have today received the claimants amended particulars of claim.

 

One day before the court ordered it by.

 

It includes a statement of truth and a copy of the internet claim form.

It is definitely not a credit agreement or contract.

 

The only figures mentioned are credit limit and personal details.

 

Interestingly it shows a Y in the payment protection insurance box even though it shows that I was self employed at the time. So, there might be a claim for PPI there.

 

they are still claiming the original claim of £4330 but have not supplied any statements of account or how that figure has been arrived at.

 

I am presuming now that I should serve/file my defence based as originally, on No CCA agreement therefore no contract.

Still haven't had any statements of account on the payments I have been making for last 10 years or so.

 

I am prepared to file a defence and turn up in court if necessary. Just would like any input from you guys.

 

Many thanks again,

 

M.

 

P.s. my understanding is that when a debt is bought it is bought with all rights and responsibilities.

[marcander]

Forgot to mention I have until 12th July to serve my full particulars of defence.

 

Regards

 

M.

[marcander]

I am going to base my reply to the court basically saying that because the claimant has produced only an internet (spread sheet type) application form from 1999 and a statement of truth and NOT a consumer credit agreement or true copy of one, or a statement of account (none at all over the last 11 years) then as I see it I do not have a case to answer. The claimant must prove his case before I have to prove a defence.

 

The national debtline says that if the creditor does not supply a copy of the agreement or statement of account when asked then the creditor cannot get a court order although they can take me to court. I should apparently apply for a stay of proceedings until the claimant does comply with my request under CCA 1972.

 

During the 10 years after the default I was paying an amount every month starting with £2 or so a month and in 2011 it was £35 per month. I have never had a statement during that time when Moorrcrop were handling it for eegg. I made a request to Eggg via Moorcrop last year for CCA and statements. I received NO statement and NO CCA just my £1 returned saying they could not comply with my request. I also made a request for statements and CCA under CPR rules to Bryanncarter when they were acting for Global and made the county court claim.

 

Arrooww glob are now acting for themselves after having sacked Brynn cartr and revised their claim.

 

So if anyone has any input I would be pleased to hear from you.

 

Many thanks again

 

Marc.

[Davidoff]

Hi

 

I also have a supposedly "true" copy of a CCA which is for 2001. I have also asked a DCA for a proper "photocopy" of my alleged CCA and may well have to go down the same route as you.

 

However, I was ridiculed by DX of this site team because, as he put it, " quite honestly, your really need to drop the 'hope' that a paperwork wriggle will get you out of paying this debt". Seeing as how most. if not all, law is based on proof of evidence, all paperwork, including a CCA, is essential, and the DCA not having one is not a "wriggle".

 

As such I believe that you have a good case and wish you well. Please keep the site informed of the outcome - and again, all the best.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

The simple fact is that the absence of the CCA is not now the

useful tool it used to be, the judges over the past few years

have reverted to some of the real principles of English Civil Law,

ie What is reasonable in the eyes of the public and The Balance

of Probabliies Civil Law is not like the Criminal counterart where

a case mmust proved beyond reasonable doubt.

 

So a signed app form + statements shoeing useage of a credit facility

WILL prove liability.

[citizenB]

So they havent provided statements or a statement of account showing how the amount being claimed has accrued?

 

I think there was also a question mark over the PPI, wasnt there?

 

It is my understanding that on some of those internet applications, you couldnt move forward unless you ticked the "Yes" box for PPI - in which case that makes it mandatory and not optional.

[catquest]

The simple fact is that the absence of the CCA is not now the

useful tool it used to be, the judges over the past few years

have reverted to some of the real principles of English Civil Law,

ie What is reasonable in the eyes of the public and The Balance

of Probabliies Civil Law is not like the Criminal counterart where

a case mmust proved beyond reasonable doubt.

 

So a signed app form + statements shoeing useage of a credit facility

WILL prove liability.

 

But the balance of probabilities must be that the agreement was enforceable - if the CCA clearly shows it wasn't ( just an application form without reference to T&Cs in the same document ) no judge can do anything about that

[dx100uk]

well you go stand infront of a judge and say "it's not my debt mate"....

 

if there is a clear financial link and various statements to prove it

it would be foolish to say many years later, its un-en.

might work, but it's its a judge lottery

as many cases on here will show.

 

also please bear-in-mind, that is debt avoidance - not what we condone on CAG.

 

there are better ways to skin them !

 

dx

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

If an account is used proved that there was an app made I

would find it hard to plead on someones behalf that there

was no liability.

[marcander]

Surely an application form for a credit card is not proof of a debt.

 

The figure the claimant claims comes from where?

They have not/cannot provide statements for the last ten years of my payments each month after default in 2001.

 

I dispute the amount and now the debt at all.

It is my right to have a true copy of the agreement/contract as per CCA 1972 and also statements of account for my own investigation.

I could have paid this twice over.

It is not a wriggle.

 

For the claimant to produce (as final evidence for particulars of claim) ONLY an unsigned internet application form

and a statement of truth means that they could just as easily have claimed £10,000 or whatever they liked.

 

My understanding is that the burden of proof falls firstly on the claimant and only then on the defendant, when he sees and knows the case he has to answer.

 

My concern now is to arrange my defence statement so that it encompasses my legal rights without waffle.

The judge concurred with my last suggestion that the claimant file his evidence for me to see the case

I have to answer and then for me to file my full defence.

 

I believe now that in the absence of a contract of any kind ( copy or otherwise)

and absolutely no statements of account for the payments to EEGG via Moorcrop for 10 years

that I should ask for a stay of proceedings until the claimant complies with my reasonable and lawful request.

 

A request for a stay of proceedings until sufficient evidence is filed by the claimant seems to be the next step.

 

My particulars of defence need to be served/filed by thursday 12th july, so I'd better get cracking.

 

regards

 

Marc

[catquest]

Please look at Alexandra Slater v Egg for info which may be relevant in your case.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Many credit card apps are dual purpose app and agreement,

so with proof of use is most certainly proof of liability.

[catquest]

I think we need a case law where an application form referred to " I have received and read the terms and conditions " or something similar which is not within the document

[DonkeyB]

It’s all listed in Carey v HSBC!

[catquest]

Yes indeed but Carey only says it's a matter of substance, not form

[DonkeyB]

So where is the substance missing in your case?

[dx100uk]

marcanderplease dont get what i am saying wrong.

i would dearly love to see you nail them.

by whatever means.

 

and i have said many times before legal is not my game

hence why others more knowledgable are/have helped you.

 

i personally would also use the court/judge

to answer the qustion of:

where HAS all the money i have paid these dca's on this debt gone?

 

i've never had a statement EVER

as far as i know,

the debt could have been paid off years ago

and what i've been paying is THEIR unlawful PENALTY charges.

or

if the money has not gone off the debt,

but t the DCA's profit pocket

then it is SB'ed

wonder if this is why carter has dropped it.

 

just musings

 

dx

[DonkeyB]

Is that user name for real? Marcander? Ha ha!