Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[Crazy Diamond]

that would appear to be a further layer of unenforceable claptrap dreamt up for the occasion by the office concerned.

 

 

Beautifully put.

[Crazy Diamond]

They're STILL at it!!!

 

From FB group "Atos Miracles":

 

Atos has come up with another way to avoid having assessments recorded.....wait for it.....The two week rule....after the first phone call by my other half was terminated because she stated the phone call was being recorded for legal reasons they terminated the call as it was not allowed for any phone conversation to be recorded. (yet another lie) anyhow i rang atos back told them for legal reasons the conversation was being recorded. i was then told that because the assessment date was less than 2 week away 13th feb that we could not have the assessment recorded,(letter only arrived today), after excersising my legal right to have the assessment recorded and that i would be notifying DWP that they were in breach of contract they soon backed down and are sending another appointment date out for when the recording equipment will be available.....so there you have it...Atos will send your appointment letter so that there is less than 2 week before the date of assessment then lie and tell you you cannot have it recorded because they need 2 weeks notice...WRONG it is your LEGAL RIGHT....do not be fooled.

[SWLABR9]

Shows how scared they are, doesn't it?

[Crazy Diamond]

Shows how scared they are, doesn't it?

I guess... the problem is that as long as people don't know what their rights are, their *ahem* fanciful interpretation of the law (being careful about libel threats here! ) is still going to catch out innocent vulnerable people.

[**Margaret**]

:They're STILL at it!!!:

 

The deceit or the 'persuasion'?

 

This has echos of July 12. When DWATO's reasonable endeavours failed to cope with the demand, a handful of centres arbitarily suspended recorded messicals. Not that they were ever going to cope with only 11 audio recorders (some of them broken) and even less pinocchios prepared to use them.

 

The two week rule DOES NOT EXIST. Even DWATO concede that;

 

'Appointments may be deferred for up to four weeks from the date of request, for any circumstance, including the non availability of recording equipment.'

 

http://whatdotheyknow.com/request/deferring_wca_for_4_weeks#incoming-352517

 

As for the two weeks notice? They've had seven months notice, in writing, from me. Doesn't seem to have helped much. Rescheduled by Shatos has become a way of life.

 

Margaret.

Edited February 4, 2013 by **Margaret**

[nolegion]

Official DWATO policy: "We will not accept laptops."

 

See this FoI (inc.'annotation') today:-

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dwpatos_guidance_document_use_of#incoming-358631

[**Margaret**]

: No Laptops - By Order of DWATO :

 

Clearly they've the potential to be effective propoganda! For claimants! N we can't be having that now, can we?

 

In the wake of my encounters with DWATO on 21 December 12 (detailed at #955) my husband realised that some sort of guidance document must be in existence, even if it was only for the guidance of Shatos resources clerks dealing with non-compliant claimants. Accordingly, we've asked DWATO for a copy of it. Thus far, the response has been a deafening silence. To be fair, (clean hands n all that) they're not out of time. Yet!

 

This morning, I did receive a spectacular non-answer from DWATO to some other freedom of info questions. The questions concerned:

 

The reasonableness, or not, of expecting claimants to spend upwards of £300 to get a messical audio recorded.

Clarification about the certification/collaboration of personal equipment.

Whether there's a printed process guide, about using personal equipment to audio record a messical, for claimants who need it as a reasonable adjustment.

 

DWATO's single answer, to all the questions, I kid you not:

 

'...... DWP has asked Atos Healthcare to try and accommodate requests for audio recording where a claimant makes a request in advance of their assessment. All requests for assessments to be recorded should be made in advance ...... to ensure that recording equipment is available and set up for use.

 

Claimant's may use their own equipment to record their face-to-face WCA; however the DWP requires that they must be able to provide a complete and accurate copy to the HCP ...... CD and audio cassette only.'

 

End of! Apart from the usual rhetoric about data protection. One thing Shatos are good at, even when the claimant's unconscious!

 

This time they've not even read the questions, let alone attempted to answer them. Shame we have to bother with the internal review bit before we can go to the info commissioner.

 

Margaret.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

'

Edited February 8, 2013 by **Margaret**

[nolegion]

Evening, Starry-E.

 

I've been meaning to ask since you first mentioned it here, a while back: have you a link (or make\model details) for a dual-deck CD recorder at £300 or so?

 

I have no intention of investing in one, but I would be interested in its availability for such as can afford it. My guess is the site would not exactly suspect us of advertising.

 

As regards FoI requests, I think you will already know this, but for others - the time to make FoI requests to the DWP is right now. It has been made to sit in the naughty chair by the ICO for repeated failure to comply within statutory time limits, and is being monitored by the ICO for its performance up to 31 03 13.

[antone]

 

I've been meaning to ask since you first mentioned it here, a while back: have you a link (or make\model details) for a dual-deck CD recorder at £300 or so?

 

I have no intention of investing in one, but I would be interested in its availability for such as can afford it. My guess is the site would not exactly suspect us of advertising.

 

 

I'd have no problem with a link or other details being posted by a known regular (a description that includes yourself and StarryEyes). I don't think anyone here is trying to sell dual-deck CDRs for personal profit.

 

It would be useful information.

[Crazy Diamond]

.

.

.

.

-> "dual-deck CD recorder"

 

I just had a moment...

 

I have been using CDs for a while now... AFAIK, you can't record straight to CDs, they're not cassettes, different technology, surely, first you have to record on a hard drive of some kind then burn to CD, no? The whole point being that it's a CD, the info has to be burned onto it before it can be played...

 

Has the late time gone to my head here? Or have I just stumbled on their biggest pile of bullpoo yet? It's ok, tell me if I've gone mad, I wouldn't be surprised.

[antone]

Yeah, it's possible to record to CD - the gadget just needs to have some memory to buffer the incoming sound. It's still a few steps above what an average person is likely to have, though, and I can't see why any regular Joe would have a dual deck device.

[speedfreek]

The two week rule DOES NOT EXIST. Even DWATO concede that;

 

Nor does the you can only rearrange and an appointment once rule

 

It's an internal ATOS/DWP dictate with no legal standing nor is it included anywhere in the regulations.

 

It's a general thing to stop people avoiding assessment using excuses of the type "a dog ate my homework"

 

If your reasons for rearranging are valid or due to ATOS being numpties (i.e. their fault not yours) then you can do it as may times as you like!

 

I was up to rearrangement 6 or 7 in 2010 as they kept booking appointments and then telling me they hadn't looked at my request for a home medical. So I told them to do one until they did.

 

Me >>>> them

 

But still on here (even now) people still say that it is fact!

 

You say it enough times.......

[osdset]

Evening, Starry-E.

 

I've been meaning to ask since you first mentioned it here, a while back: have you a link (or make\model details) for a dual-deck CD recorder at £300 or so?

 

I have no intention of investing in one, but I would be interested in its availability for such as can afford it. My guess is the site would not exactly suspect us of advertising.

 

As regards FoI requests, I think you will already know this, but for others - the time to make FoI requests to the DWP is right now. It has been made to sit in the naughty chair by the ICO for repeated failure to comply within statutory time limits, and is being monitored by the ICO for its performance up to 31 03 13.

 

I believe this is the company that the DWP source the equipment from http://www.neal.co.uk/products/9102.htm

[Crazy Diamond]

I believe this is the company that the DWP source the equipment from http://www.neal.co.uk/products/9102.htm

 

Oh, WOW. Never knew these existed!!!

 

However, as Antone has said, no what you'd expect ordinary Joe to use, in fact, according to the link, these are the target audience:

 

Suspect Interview Recorders

Vulnerable and Intimidated Witness Interview Recorders

Personnel Interview Recorders

Meeting Room Recorders

 

all of which points quite clearly to a very specific, high-use, rigorous system and not something you can just pop to Maplins and get.

 

Anyway, it's all academic and we must be careful not to let ourselves be hoodwinked by them that they have any right to impose the conditions or tools with which to record our interviews. As long as it's audible and identifiable, it's good enough, let them argue that it's not and why it should be tossed out of court if need be.

[Nystagmite]

I wonder if you could get a dictaphone with a card slot and record on to the card and the dictaphone? A cheaper alternative, maybe?

[**Margaret**]

The Most Unreasonable Obstruction

(Cept for the pinocchios)

 

In reply to another member's request at #1008. Alas, he chose the most technology illiterate contributor to the forum. For what it's worth here goes, but if we've read the ad wrong, someone please correct us.

 

'...... Legal advice has been obtained to confirm that recording of assessments for the claimant must be allowed without unreasonable obstructions. The majority of the claimants who request that their medical assessment is recorded, do not have the financial means to provide the specified recording equipment.' (RFP 27: Recording Medical Assessments - Department for Work n Pensions)

 

'Atos Healthcare are happy for Work Capability Assessments to be recorded where requested.'

 

Could've fooled me.

 

Even she who knows how to do it can't get the links to work, so Google;

 

Thomann UK Cyberstore, then search for 202 MkV @ £354.43.

 

The same recorder's available from Amazon, with the ref 202 MK5, @ £436.02 via Cranford.

 

I'm not advocating that anyone spend £100s to get a messical recorded and I doubt :nolegion: is either. But live n let live, if it helps someone cope with DWATO? For anyone who's considering the idea I'd suggest a pre purchase enquiry to Shatos as to whether the 202 MkV'd meet their certification. Thus far, it appears that the only acceptable dual audio recorder is (wait for it, you guessed) the Neal 9102 Dual CD Audio Interview Recorder.

 

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/the_dwps_continuing_and_illegal#incoming-356201

 

Sincerely, Margaret n Starryeyes.

Edited February 11, 2013 by **Margaret**

[**Margaret**]

:Nystagmite:

 

Sorry, your dictaphone's got no chance cos there's only one copy. But, those who know more about it than me can't see a problem with using a laptop and then immediately copying to two discs, in the presence of the pinocchio. Except for the unreasonable obstruction that DWATO don't want messicals audio recorded.

 

Margaret.

Edited February 11, 2013 by **Margaret**

[RaeUK]

Surely, a cheaper solution would be two identical memory stick recorders - about a tenner each - and give one to ATOSH at the end and keep the other ...

[nolegion]

Starry-E. Many thanks indeed, for the references. These are the links I found following them up:-

 

http://www.thomann.de/gb/ta[problem]_202mkiv.htm

 

 

-202MK5-CASSETTE-RECORDER-DUAL/dp/B001VED0BA/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1360543175&sr=1-4"]http://www.amazon.co.uk/TA[problem]-202MK5-CASSETTE-RECORDER-DUAL/dp/B001VED0BA/ref=sr_1_4?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1360543175&sr=1-4

 

(But it seems there is a site-generated, slight, technical "[problem]" here! It doesn't like a four letter word which reads "MACS" in reverse. So, any one interested, copy the links, paste into your browser and make the substitution before hitting go. Libel is a dead tricky subject.)

 

To the point...Starry-E, you are absolutely right I'm not suggesting anyone should try to buy one of these things!

 

Extremely expensive, cumbersome, fragile, 7- year-old-design, electrical- mains-supply -powered, thoroughly- outdated-format pieces of tin - with an order time of over a month, to boot!

 

I was looking for help in making sure that there was indeed no 'reasonable option' which would fit the DWP's purported 'requirements' for 'personal equipment': and the examples you have found are just fine and dandy for that argument.

 

Nystagmite, RaeUK. You are of course entirely right that there are many simpler and cheaper solutions to taking a recording and leaving a copy behind.

 

Sadly, the point is that the DWP will not allow us to use them (overtly). They insist on audio-cassette or CD format, recorded on dual-deck simultaneous recording devices only – which is unreasonably expensive and impractical, and thus in contravention of their own legal advice about not unreasonably obstructing recording.

 

They have already driven people to record covertly, and the situation is set to get a lot worse for DWATO and Co when the PIP assessments start in a few weeks time.

[Invalidation]

There many cheap and affordable twin deck Cassette recorders around. Even portable ones

These are from Ebay

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/Cassette-Tape-Players-/48645/i.html

[nolegion]

People flogging off their antique cassette stereos on ebay won't help claimants unfortunately. Got rid of a couple myself. There is unlikely to be a single version on the ebay list kindly supplied by Invaildation which has the facility to record to two decks simultaneously (which is what, when pressed, DWATO, will admit is the requirement) - let alone a portable one. Adds to the point.

 

The 'ordinary Joe's' sound systems seldom came with such an option. Record to one deck, certainly - then 'dub' by playing one cassette to be recorded on another in the 'recording deck' (usuaually the one with red button beneath it) , if you want a copy. But that won't satisfy DWATO - and cassette or CD is the only format which they will accept.

 

'Dual recording' (such that there are two 'master' copies from the outset) is a specialist, e.g police station or recording studio, facility most of us would never need. And it is, of course, precisely because of its unavailability to most people that they are insisting on it.

[Guest]

as I understand it, if I want to record for my own personal use, then I can, and my take on it is that if its to use to back up what I did or didn't say then thats personal use. whatever the situation around that, I will remind them if needed that it is my legal right to have a recorded assessment.......end of.......

[nolegion]

I would like to suggest that in analysing and discussing the very important principles and practical issues in this matter, contributors should always be careful to distinguish between POLICY and LAW.

 

It is the DWP's current POLICY to make 'self-recording' as difficult as possible for claimants. And that policy seems certainly to include purportedly conferring on any 'hcp' an entitlement to refuse to conduct a recorded WCA.

 

For several years, the 'ESA\WCA Handbook' (which DWP\Atos minions treat as their ESA 'bible') used to say this expressly. However, the section dealing with claimants using their own equipment to audio-record was removed last July, and, so far, FoI enquirers have found it nigh impossible to extract a full and precise statement of current policy from the DWPconcerning claimants who wish to record. Nevertheless, in several of the responses I have seen, the DWP continues to assert that an 'hcp' has the right not to'consent'.

 

But that is all 'policy', NOT law.

 

Under English law (including the Covention-based 'human rights' imported into it) there is NO general or generic 'legal right' not to have one's voice recorded. There is simply no legal authority for such a proposition.

 

In specific circumstances, specific people may be able to assert a legal restriction on someone else's wish to audio-record; but in all such cases those people must be able to identify the precise law or laws on which they base their assertion(s), such as: copyright legislation, breach of express or implied confidentiality obligations, or contravention of the Data Protection Act 1998 (DPA).

 

The DWP tried to do this in the case of WCAs and FAILED. The best it could come up with was to try to misrepresent the effect of certain 'notification' requirements under the DPA. However, it gave that up last year,and has admitted that claimants are 'within their rights' to audio-record their dealings with the DWP. Covert recording of a WCA by a claimant is legal. It does not breach any supposed right of an hcp not to have their voice recorded.

 

I need also to note that not all 'rights' 'swing both ways'; far from it, and the recording of WCAs is one very good illustration of this. The principal reason why a claimant does NOT breach the DPA if they covertly record a WCA is the set of exemptions for personal purposes contained in section 36 of that Act. Those exemptions could NOT be claimed by Atos or an'hcp' if THEY audio-recorded your WCA covertly, because the section 36 exemptions do not extend to businesses, organisations or government departments, and they would most certainly fall foul of the DPA's principles and prohibitions if they tried that on.

 

The real question here, I think, is: is the DWP's current POLICY as regards overt recording lawfully imposed on claimants?

 

I, with others, would say that it is NOT lawfully imposed in its current form, but that should be for another post, because this one is more than long enough already.

 

(I was asked to present a short paper for an off-line medico-legal forum a few years ago, concerning patients who wished to audio-record how their doctors treated them. Basically, the law has not changed significantly for quite a while on this, and the same principles apply. If anyone can stomach yet more lawyerese as regards the legal background, Crazy-D was good enough to provide a link at post # 875, this thread.)

Edited February 14, 2013 by nolegion

[**Margaret**]

:Hi nolegion:

 

Thanx so much for your clearly written clarification of the issues in #1027.

 

After;

 

'Do you know how many points are needed for the support group?'

 

The next phrase guaranteed to drive me to distraction is;

 

'Atos've told me it's illegal/not allowed.'

 

 

 

Going to be so helpful to have your clarification to refer to. Explains it all far more clearly than I've ever managed to.

 

Thanx again, Margaret.

Edited February 15, 2013 by **Margaret**

[Nystagmite]

I do shorthand if the notes are for myself. But I think if you do them for someone else, there might be an issue of understanding what your notes mean.