Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded

[Nystagmite]

Asking for a recording is a reasonable adjustment. How can they justify not allowing the assessment to be recorded?

[Willowone]

I agree, Nystagmite.

 

I wanted the recording because my memory isn't very good. It will be even worse during a WCA as I will feel worried and stressed (I'm sure everyone is the same).

 

Hopefully with enough people making a noise we can ensure that the right to a recording is safe. I'd like to see it being offered to everyone at the beginning of the process - not kept as a difficult to find 'secret'.

[Crazy Diamond]

Ok, sorry for stating the bleeding obvious, but this thread now has 21 pages and we're still going around in circles into what ATOS/DWP/Grayling etc are saying & contradicting one another at each turn, and in the end no-one is much clearer, people are getting more worried and in all this, the most glaring thing of all is being lost, so I will write in great big letters to make sure it gets noticed:

 

YOU DO NOT NEED TO ASK ATOS TO RECORD, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TELL THEM YOU'RE RECORDING. F*** WHAT THESE MORONS ARE SAYING OR NOT SAYING, IGNORE THEM. GO ON E-BAY AND SPEND ANYTHING BETWEEN £5 AND £20 FOR ONE OF THEM SPY RECORDING DEVICES, RECORD WITHOUT TELLING THEM. PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

 

There. That's better.

[wobbly]

Hear Hear

[Simon7685]

If you covertly record a WCA it is not admissable as evidence at any tribunal. You can only use it for your own personal use. It is also not accepted as a legal submission of what took place at the WCA, as the other party (ATOS) were not aware that a recording was taking place.

 

If it was as easy as covertly recording the assessment and then using it as part of an appeal, things would be a lot easier but unfortunatelt life isn't that straightforward.

 

My advice.....

 

INSIST your WCA is recorded by ATOS as is your right. Covertly recording a WCA will not help you, or try and force a change of policy which is I believe what we are all trying to achieve..........

Or am I missing the point and we are back to the "stuff everyone else, as long as I get 15 points!"

 

Worried33........

I have just turned on my laptop and seen your posting, I am going to put something together for you starting tonight, hopefully you will have it by later on tonight.

[Simon7685]

Just found this while trawling around to get some info together..............

ATOS Response to my complaint about Recordings

 

Posted on July 8, 2012

Yesterday the reply from ATOS arrived on my doorstep, bringing with it the usual dread. I thought about paraphrasing the content but have decided to reproduce the response in full as it reads.

Feel free to make of the content what you will but please make any comments you want, particularly if this in any way is similar yo your case, or that or someone you know. I aim to collate feedback for further evidence of the disregard ATOS treat us with; so please if you do not want me to use your name let me know or post anonymously.

Dear Ms Linney,

 

I am writing further to Rhian Davies’ letter of the 29th June in response to your

concerns regarding your Work Capability Assessment (WCA) appointment.

 

I am sorry that on this occasion Atos is unable to meet your request for an

audio recording of your Work Capability Assessment on 20107/2012.

 

The Department for Work and Pensions has asked Atos Healthcare to try and

accommodate requests for audio recordings where this is made in advance of

the assessment. A limited facility to audio record was introduced by the

Department for Work and Pensions at a time when only small numbers of

requests.were anticipated and since that time the number of requests has

increased significantly. This has put pressure on our ability to provide

sufficient capacity to meet all requests. The DWP have therefore requested

that we inform customers when a recording cannot be made, and in these

circumstances, that the WCA process should continue. This will ensure your

claim is dealt with in a timely manner. The DWP decision maker will take into

account all available evidence in deciding your claim.

 

In view of security and confidentiality considerations Atos does not permit the

recording of WCAs by a customer using their own recording devices.

However, it is permissible for you, or your representative, to take notes during

an assessment for your own use.

 

The DWP are currently looking at ways to improve the availability of audio

recording in the short term and Atos Healthcare remains committed to assist

the DWP in the evaluation of the audio recording of Work Capability

Assessments later in the year.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Gemma Bowes

Customer Relations Manager

On behalf of Natalie Gorshkov-Vickers

[Willowone]

If you get the letter about recording from Atos they expressly state that you cannot record it yourself. I'm quoting Grayling because I am trying to establish that this is a straightforward right and we need to pool info to try and get this cleared up in a way that will help everyone. It feels like a turning point (I really hope that it is). I would like to do things by the book if possible, but I respect everyone else's right to covertly record their WCA if that is what they think is best. I'm only trying to help. This isn't for fun. I've only got a few days left.

[Simon7685]

Still on the hunt for info for a letter for Worried33 and stumbled on this regarding the cost of appeals against results of the WCA, very interesting I thought.

 

Tom Greatrex (Rutherglen and Hamilton West, Labour)

To ask the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions with reference to the answer of 12 October 2011, Official Report, column 439W, on work capability assessment: appeals, what the cost to his Department was of appeals made to the work capability assessment in (a) 2011 and (b) 2012 to date.

 

• Hansard source (Citation: HC Deb, 9 July 2012, c64W)
  

 

 

Chris Grayling (Minister of State (Employment), Work and Pensions; Epsom and Ewell, Conservative)

The cost to the Department for Work Capability Assessment Appeals in financial year 2010-11 was £12,076,455.

The cost to the Department for Work Capability Assessment Appeals in financial year 2011-12 was £15,410,571.

[nolegion]

A couple of optimistic points:-

 

1. The brand new revisions to the 'WCA Handbook' no longer claim to hand any 'HCP' the right to refuse to consent to being audio-recorded (where the officially approved equipment is to be used).

 

That weasel-shaped opt-out has been in the handbook's text for many years - as well as being referred to in some FoI responses from the DWP earlier this year about the 'new scheme'; but, although it is still there as regards (claimant-supplied) video equipment, the option is not contained within the new audio-recording paragraph.

 

So while, 'we haven't got any working equipment,' is one,attempted, excuse, the plea 'we haven't got anyone who is prepared to be audio-recorded', is no longer available to Atos.

 

One might infer that the finger- pointing between the villainous about the lack of working devices has been made all the more acute because of this aspect of the revisions which, entirely coincidentally of course, the DWP chose to divulge this week.

 

2. Although recorded evidence – including that made overtly on 'approved equipment', I might add - is technically 'hearsay', civil courts and tribunals have a wide discretion to admit such into evidence, where the recording is properly material to matters of fact in dispute for the court\tribunal to rule on.

 

Doesn't mean it can't be challenged – e.g. on the basis,that it has been fabricated\modified – but the court\tribunal should make up its own mind about the probabilities of that, after considering the evidence.

 

For instance, earlier this year, the General Medical Council struck off a GP on the basis of completely covert recordings on a patient's mobile phone. Such challenges were made on behalf of the doctor. They didn't twork.

Edited July 13, 2012 by nolegion

[Willowone]

That is interesting, Simon. Stupid amounts of money that Atos ought to be paying back to the DWP...

 

The letter that you posted (via Jayne Linney) was pretty much the same as the one I received. It's v helpful to get the refusal of the recording in writing if people can. Xx

[Willowone]

"So while, 'we haven't got any working equipment,' is one,attempted, excuse, the plea 'we haven't got anyone who is prepared to be audio-recorded', is no longer available to Atos."

 

That is incredibly helpful, thank you. *Thumbs up* I was sure that would be the next excuse used in my case. Interestingly when I told the receptionist that I'd been told that only a few HCPs were trained to record, she said 'oh no! all of ours can!', which I thought was interesting.

[Slatted]

Just for a bit of balance...it may be worth assuming that some of the appeals would still be made due to the underlying ambiguity and vaguery of the descriptors...albeit I believe a good deal less....at least then it would "just" be that..along with some of the issues that come with any communication breakdowns and misunderstandings.

[Willowone]

Oh yes! Recording isn't the solution for everything, by all means. The form the questions take are still a nightmare and don't allow people to give the information/answers that they need to. For me (personally) I wanted a recording because I hoped it would mean a more 'careful' HCP and because it would minimise the risk of being misquoted (you know what I mean...) However, I also want a recording because my memory is rubbish and if I need to prepare material for an appeal it would be very helpful to have all the info available on a CD that is straightforwardly classed as admissible evidence.

 

I'm sure that there are ways of getting covert recordings accepted as evidence but the idea of having to try and secretly record the WCA would be one worry too many for me to cope with on the day. (Again, if others can do it then all power to them, it's just not for me).

[Simon7685]

I have sent Worried33 a pm with a quickly cobbled letter that could be used to send to ATOS following receiving a letter similar to one above where they refuse you a recorded WCA. It is in no way set in stone and any additions or improvements or critisisms are fine. It is merely me trying to help someone else out that is going through the same s**t with ATOS. No doubt I will adjust it myself in time as nothing is ever the finished article................

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Recording of Work Capability Assessment

I am writing to you in response to your letter dated xxxxxxxxxxx. I would like to advise you that with regard to my WCA on 20 July 2012, I will be in attendance but should there be no equipment to facilitate a recording of the assessment, I will not be prepared to continue with it.

It is my intention to bring a statement for your representative at the assessment to sign confirming that I have attended but due to your failure to provide the necessary equipment, the WCA could not go ahead, as to do so would I believe infringe on my rights.

It is widely accepted that a claimant has a right to request a recorded WCA, it is also accepted as part of the Harrington report that recordings were implemented. In February 2012 the Minister for Employment stated in Parliament,

On audio recording, we will offer everyone who wants it the opportunity to have their session recorded. We decided not to implement universal recording because, based on the trial experience, people did not want it. Few people wanted their sessions recorded, and some said that they definitely did not. We decided therefore to offer recording as an option to those who want it." [source Hansard 1 Feb 2012 : Column 292WH]

This statement has been backed up by Mr Grayling on a number of occasions since.

It is unreasonable and unrealistic for claimants to be refused having their assessment recorded in the 21st century, considering the advancements of modern technology. This is a decency afforded to even criminals during their interviews, so why should disabled people be treated any differently?

I have also noted that ATOS are currently carrying out recorded assessments in some areas but not others. This is blatantly unacceptable and is a classic example of “Double Standards” and “discrimination” against claimants based on where in the country they live. Surely Atos cannot treat each of us differently according to the availability of the recording equipment?

I am forwarding a copy of this letter to the ESA Decision Maker dealing with my claim for their reference. I am also taking this a final opportunity to ask ATOS to fulfil the obligations as set out by the Secretary of State and facilitate the recording I have asked for. If that is not going to be the case I would further request that I am supplied with the exact reasons why this cannot be done?

I look forward to what I hope will be successful WCA that is recorded as per my original request.

Yours faithfully

[worried33]

Ok, sorry for stating the bleeding obvious, but this thread now has 21 pages and we're still going around in circles into what ATOS/DWP/Grayling etc are saying & contradicting one another at each turn, and in the end no-one is much clearer, people are getting more worried and in all this, the most glaring thing of all is being lost, so I will write in great big letters to make sure it gets noticed:

 

YOU DO NOT NEED TO ASK ATOS TO RECORD, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO TELL THEM YOU'RE RECORDING. F*** WHAT THESE MORONS ARE SAYING OR NOT SAYING, IGNORE THEM. GO ON E-BAY AND SPEND ANYTHING BETWEEN £5 AND £20 FOR ONE OF THEM SPY RECORDING DEVICES, RECORD WITHOUT TELLING THEM. PROBLEM SOLVED!!!

 

There. That's better.

 

Its not solved, as doing a covert recording which may not even work properly under clothing etc. is no substitute for a proper legally made recording agreed on by both parties.

[Willowone]

Fantastic letter, Simon! I might be using it next week if I can't get things sorted in time. Many thanks

[speedfreek]

Its not solved, as doing a covert recording which may not even work properly under clothing etc. is no substitute for a proper legally made recording agreed on by both parties.

 

I used a Sansa Zip Clip for a covert the other week. Clipped on to outside of my front jeans pocket and covered by a thick T-Shirt

 

Fantastic quality truly amazing beat hands down the ones I use to do via the mic in my mobiles headphones tbf

 

It's frickin tiny though and £35 on play

[**Margaret**]

LETTER:

 

Did I say I was still standing? Wishful thinking. Hubby 'sentenced' me to bed-rest yesterday cos I was too shattered, by the stress, to think straight. Anyway, as of this morning; Dilizjo has one of the rarest reconsiderations ever and I have one of the rarest letters from Atos ever; and like him/her know I'm very lucky. 'Twas totally, totally unexpected. No hospital appointments, no extenuating circumstances, possibly the recent parliamentary pressure on Mr Grayling? Who knows?

 

Kept my letter to Atos really simple;

'Please accept this letter as an advance written request for audio recording, by Atos, of xxxxxx's work capability assessment'. With a copy of Mr Grayling's parliamentary written answer, dated 5 July 12, stapled to the back of the letter.

 

Reply from Atos;

'Due to unforeseen/changed circumstances your appointment (the one they sent me for an unrecorded interrogation) has been cancelled.'

 

Have shared my experience with the hope that it'll help others. My very best wishes to one and all who are caught in this unfair fracas. Margaret.

Edited July 14, 2012 by **Margaret**

[DIZZYNITA]

Hi Caggers..

 

This is good news, more recording to expose ATOS!

 

However, according to Benefits and Work Forum they have received informations regarding the recordings..they stated in their latest update as follows: ATOS states they can't record 'assessments' due to broken down equipment. It seems the recording equipments are packed and shipped around the centres and therefore broken in transit.

 

As a result, several 'assessment' appointments had to be cancelled and rescheduled and causing a backlog.

 

Now the DWP has decided the 'assessments' has to be done, recording or not, but have instructed ATOS to get more equipment.

[**Margaret**]

Caution:

 

Let's not get too excited, yet! After all, this debate with DWATO has been raging, on and off, for at least five years. Yes I'm pleased with the letter . Will the offer of a recorded interrogation follow? Have to wait and see.

 

Caution:

 

For anyone who's reading this; please, please don't cite my letter as reason for refusing an unrecorded interrogation. 'Tis a long, long road to tribunal (we've already been on it for thirteen long months). And an even longer one, without any benefit, for failure to attend or purported failure to attend cos one's been caught covertly recording, which I'm not against, but not everyone can cope with it. Live and let live. We've all to do what's right for us in this unfair fracas.

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

[nolegion]

Good stuff, Starry-E.

 

Your letter, nevertheless, 'worked' (so far!).

 

Updates from Recorders v DWATO awaited with interest, next week.

[nolegion]

While waiting for the battlers at the front of this to report developments, I wonder if people might find the following interesting and at least partly relevant:-

 

"Indeed, people have made representations to me who are concerned about the organisation Atos, which undertakes assessments on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions. Allegations have been made to me that Atos has reached for the lawyers when blogs have made statements about how that company has operated and behaved, irrespective of whether there is merit in what they are saying. If it were the DWP doing those reviews, there would be no recourse, but because Atos is standing in the shoes of the DWP, it can reach for the lawyers and take action."

 

It's why I sometimes refer to "DWATO".

 

I think the whole of the parliamentary committee debate (last month) from which the quote comes, addresses very important issues:-

 

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/pbc/2012-13/Defamation_Bill/05-0_2012-06-26a.2.0?s=atos

Edited July 16, 2012 by nolegion

[**Margaret**]

ANOTHER LETTER:

 

My question to Mr Grayling;

 

'............I would appreciate departmental clarification as to whether Atos can deny a recording following an advance written request.'

 

Important bit of reply from Work and Pensions (after a lot of background stuff that most of us already know, Mr Harrington, reviewing the situation etcetera);

 

'The availability of audio recording was announced at a time when only small numbers were expected and since that time the number of requests has increased significantly. (Can't think why?) This has put pressure on the ability to provide sufficient capacity to meet all requests. The dual CD machines required for audio recording are a specialist item - there is only one manufacturer and machines are built on demand. .......... Although there have been increases in requests these still represent only a small percentage of overall WCAs - 242 (?) since March this year. In the meantime, whilst Atos will do all they can to accommodate requests for audio recording there may be times when the service cannot be offered, for example when it has not been possible to get access to recording equipment on the date/time of the WCA. ..........'

 

Had completely forgotten CIB/3117/08. Looks like we'll need it.

 

Bye for now. Hubby's prescribing an afternoon nap and threatening to hide the computer, Margaret.

[Crazy Diamond]

If you covertly record a WCA it is not admissable as evidence at any tribunal. You can only use it for your own personal use. It is also not accepted as a legal submission of what took place at the WCA, as the other party (ATOS) were not aware that a recording was taking place.

 

That is quite simply NOT TRUE. Please provide evidence to support your assertions. And by evidence, I don't just mean 'what ATOS say'.

[Crazy Diamond]

Its not solved, as doing a covert recording which may not even work properly under clothing etc. is no substitute for a proper legally made recording agreed on by both parties.

 

NOT TRUE!

 

FFS, why are people doing ATOS propaganda for them? There is NOTHING, I repeat, NOTHING, in UK law that forbids such a thing. People have watched too much US drama and taken it that UK law is the same when in fact it is quite the opposite!