Cap1 & CCA return

[SteveH2508]

Johnchris is there a link to this statement on line ?

 

Either of the two downloads from this page contains the required statement.

 

LACORS - Subject Content Details

[angel49]

Angel looking at your agreement, there doesn't appear to be a date on it at all. I know that they said they would send the start date under separate

cover and I'm not entirely certain if a date is one of the prescribed terms. One

would have though it was. On top of that, I think they should specify the

first payment and the last. Also if there is a zero interest rate, then the addition of 20p surely means that there is an interest charge, in which case

the loan is not interest free. Is the 20p a charge for something else that has been entered in the wrong column?

 

lookinforinfo

The date is in their sig box 13/10/03. According to my statements I made the first payment 15/11/03 so they must have sent me something in the mail to indicate this.Just can't lay my hands on anything other than what was sent with my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

I shall be sending CCA request to see what comes back as I want to request lower repayment plan.

Many thanks for everyones input.

[Peterbard]

Angel looking at your agreement, there doesn't appear to be a date on it at all. I know that they said they would send the start date under separate

cover and I'm not entirely certain if a date is one of the prescribed terms. One

would have though it was. On top of that, I think they should specify the

first payment and the last. Also if there is a zero interest rate, then the addition of 20p surely means that there is an interest charge, in which case

the loan is not interest free. Is the 20p a charge for something else that has been entered in the wrong column?

 

lookinforinfo

The date is in their sig box 13/10/03. According to my statements I made the first payment 15/11/03 so they must have sent me something in the mail to indicate this.Just can't lay my hands on anything other than what was sent with my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

I shall be sending CCA request to see what comes back as I want to request lower repayment plan.

Many thanks for everyones input.

HI

Did you miss my last posting the 20p is total charge for Credit. This includes not only the interst but other charges that were nessesary to set up the loan including postage etc.

If in doubt check the tcc charges regualtions 1980 1980/51

 

The date is not a prescribed term but the agreement is usually said to comence from the date accompanying the creditors signature.

 

 

Peter

[Peterbard]

ncf you may wish to include this

 

The Information Commissioners opinion re unenforceable agreements dated 7th September 2006

 

According to LACORS (The Local Authorities Coordinators of Regulatory Services) Trading Standards

Quote:

In their opinion that where a creditor accepts there is no enforceable agreement they should not be permitted to ‘punish’ the consumer by placing a record of the default on their credit reference file. To do so would be unfair and unreasonable. It would also lessen the impact of the provisions of the CCA which makes it clear that a creditor should not be allowed to enforce a credit agreement where the agreement is improperly executed

 

Clearly this must also apply to non existent agreements

 

HI Jon

 

This is brill and confirms what i and others have been saying elsewhere

many thanks

 

Peter

[angel49]

Hi Peter

Thanks for the clarification.Have caught up with reading now.

 

Gosh,they could do all that for only 20p?

[ncf355]

ncf you may wish to include this

 

The Information Commissioners opinion re unenforceable agreements dated 7th September 2006

 

According to LACORS (The Local Authorities Coordinators of Regulatory Services) Trading Standards

Quote:

In their opinion that where a creditor accepts there is no enforceable agreement they should not be permitted to ‘punish’ the consumer by placing a record of the default on their credit reference file. To do so would be unfair and unreasonable. It would also lessen the impact of the provisions of the CCA which makes it clear that a creditor should not be allowed to enforce a credit agreement where the agreement is improperly executed

 

Clearly this must also apply to non existent agreements

 

 

 

 

Thanks JC

 

[pford]

Either of the two downloads from this page contains the required statement.

 

LACORS - Subject Content Details

 

 

I to posted this and didn't get any feed back on it the ICO main reply

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/10900-loan-company-cannot-supply-116.html#post803078

 

The Filing of Unenforceable Credit Agreements on Credit Reference Files 20/03/2006

 

The attached letter was sent to the Information Commissioner in England and Scotland for clarification on the above point. The following email was received from the IC:

 

Dear Ms Humphreys,

Thank you for your letter enquiring about our position on this issue. Your letter was directed to the Information Commissioner’s office in Edinburgh and they have redirected it to the main office in Wilmslow.

 

We looked at this issue some years ago now following a report by the OFT on mail order practices. The report was not supportive of the withdrawal of agreements from the credit files but the DTI Minister at the time, Kim Howells, was concerned about the issue and asked us to consider the matter. However the situation was complicated by a number of recent cases which impacted the situation. Furthermore we anticipated that other cases could follow which had the potential to change the legal position again. We decided at that time that we would have to consider complaints on a case by case basis, looking closely at what the consumer claimed about the account. In some circumstances we do ask for defaults to be removed.

 

Your enquiry gives good reason to review the issue. I have therefore asked our legal department to review the legal position so that we can take this and the arguments you have put forward into account.

 

I hope to return to you in the not too distant future. You may also be interested to know that I am rewriting our guidance on the filing of defaults with credit reference agencies. This covers the overall standards we expect to be met before defaults are recorded. I hope to be able to publish in a few months.

 

Regards,

 

Carol Hufton

 

Yes we all know the guidance they came up with for filing defaults

 

The first data protection principle requires that as well as processing information fairly and lawfully, organisations must satisfy one of the conditions in Schedule 2 of the Data Protection Act 1998.

 

It is our view that the condition for processing below covers the sharing of account data with the credit reference agencies for the duration of a contract and six years beyond.

 

"The processing is necessary for the purposes of legitimate interests pursued by the data controller or by the third party or parties to whom the data are disclosed, except where the processing is unwarranted in any particular case because of prejudice to the rights and freedoms or legitimate interests of the data subject."

 

We take a wide view of the legitimate interests and we consider that it is in the interests of other creditors to make informed lending decisions. It is important to note here that the fact that the processing may be seen by some to prejudice a particular individual (for example, someone with an adverse entry on his credit reference file may not be able to obtain credit facilities) does not necessarily render the whole processing operation prejudicial to all individuals.

[lookinforinfo]

Angel, I think it far more likely that the contract is unenforceable for something other than the 20p.

I know there is a site that specifies all the prescribed terms, but I cannot

locate it at the moment. Perhaps someone else reading this can point you

to the correct site.

[angry cat]

Hi Guys,

 

I have just received a pm from Hopeful1 re:

"Hi I hope you don't mind me getting in touch but you have been recommended!

 

If possible could you have a look at my thread:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.c o....solicitor.html

 

Towards the end you will see i finally managed to scan the agreement sent to me by Arc on behalf of Egg after my CCA request. With this, Arc sent a demand for full payment within 7 days. (Although they never responded to a written payment offer prior to the CCA request).

 

Firstly, would you mind looking at the agreement and telling me what you think with regards to its validity. Based on that, i am then looking for help on forming my response to Arc. I do not object to paying debts (minus any unlawful charges) but i do object to dealing with DCAs who think it's ok to threaten and pressure people.

 

Any help would be appreciated, but I do understand if you don't have time.

 

Best wishes".

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collectors-debt-collection/91821-help-composing-letter-solicitor-3.html#post862317

 

You will note that this is an Egg personal loan agreement

 

note "This personal Loan Agreement which incorporates the Personal Loan Agreement Terms & Conditions supplied to you with this copy"

 

Well where are the T&C's?

No Default charges

No statement of Account etc

 

Please can we assist this cagger

 

AC

[andrew1]

Angel, I think it far more likely that the contract is unenforceable for something other than the 20p.

I know there is a site that specifies all the prescribed terms, but I cannot

locate it at the moment. Perhaps someone else reading this can point you

to the correct site.

 

Financial Agreement Solutions

 

you've had a long night LFI -

[Peterbard]

Angel, I think it far more likely that the contract is unenforceable for something other than the 20p.

I know there is a site that specifies all the prescribed terms, but I cannot

locate it at the moment. Perhaps someone else reading this can point you

to the correct site.

Hi#

The prescribed terms specified in Sch 6 are as follows: • amount of credit • credit limit • rate of interest • repayments

Peter

[angel49]

Andrew1. Thats where the confusion lies (well my confusion) as per my post 7006,I ran the agreement through the financialchecker and every which way it comes back as unenforcible-just can't figure out why.

 

Peter,thanks for your input.

[Peterbard]

Andrew1. Thats where the confusion lies (well my confusion) as per my post 7006,I ran the agreement through the financialchecker and every which way it comes back as unenforcible-just can't figure out why.

 

Peter,thanks for your input.

 

Hi May i suggest that if you put it throught he financial checker, the APR calculation would use the TCC including the 20p and give a result that is not 0%.

If it was the amount borrowed would equal the amount repaid which it doesn't.

Therefore it would say the agreement was incorrect which it is.

 

Peter

[lookinforinfo]

Peter, I am a bit slow on the uptake at times and your earlier

post [7041] combined with your last one, has just sunk in.

Are you saying that the agreement is unenforceable because it amalgamates

the interest and the total charge for credit into one figure with no provision to identify the separate amounts?

In Angels' case, we know there is no interest, so the 20p must be a

charge for credit. But had the APR been 15% say, it would then have been impossible to work out how much the interest would be over the term.

[Peterbard]

Peter, on your list of prescribed terms there is no mention of the APR. I am

sure that I read that a Judge in his summing up in a case said that were the APR incorrectly entered on the CCA document, that would render the

contract unenforceable.

The other strange thing is that the date does not appear to be a prescribed

term at all.

HI

The prescribed terms are stated in the regulations to the cca and are not a matter of opinion(respectfully) they are as stated and are the only method of declaring the agreement unenforceable (Via section 127(3) of the act)along eith the debtors signature.

The APR is not a prescribed term and niether is the date they are however required under the regulations but the ommision of these would only render the agreement enforceable by order of the court.

The regulations infolved are 1983/1553 ammended 2004/1482.

The oft website gives a good discription of Prescribed terms in their FAQ section .

 

Best regards

Peter

[lookinforinfo]

Peter, you were too quick for me .

I edited my first post drastically when I thought I had made a mistake with the APR part-that the rate of interest was the APR- hence my editing.

Apologies all round.

 

PS Thanks for pointing out where to find the prescribed terms.

[Peterbard]

Peter, I am a bit slow on the uptake at times and your earlier

post [7041] combined with your last one, has just sunk in.

Are you saying that the agreement is unenforceable because it amalgamates

the interest and the total charge for credit into one figure with no provision to identify the separate amounts?

In Angels' case, we know there is no interest, so the 20p must be a

charge for credit. But had the APR been 15% say, it would then have been impossible to work out how much the interest would be over the term.

 

Hi

The total charge for credit is the sum of all interest and charges including compulsarry ppi.

 

The criterea needed to work out APR is the total credit(the loan) the reypaments the term and the time between repayments.

When the APR is quoted in an agreement there must also be included the other charges which make up the tcc.(as above).

I don't believe i said the agreement was unenforceable merely that it was incorrect in that the 20p charge has not been included in the APR calculation and this may be what the checker is picking up.

 

Best regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

Hi

Just having another look at your agreement this is a fixed term credit agreement and as such does not have to include the interest rate as per section 9 of schedule 1 1983/1553 regs. (BY the by the request for this type of agreement is section 77 not 78

Can you rememer where you signed the agreement was it at home or on the creditors premises as i can see no cancellation details and if you signed away from creditors premises there would have to be. This would make it unenforceable under section127(4) of the act as section 62 copy of agreement would not have been actioned.

 

Regards

Peter

[angel49]

Hi

Just having another look at your agreement this is a fixed term credit agreement and as such does not have to include the interest rate as per section 9 of schedule 1 1983/1553 regs. (BY the by the request for this type of agreement is section 77 not 78

Can you rememer where you signed the agreement was it at home or on the creditors premises as i can see no cancellation details and if you signed away from creditors premises there would have to be. This would make it unenforceable under section127(4) of the act as section 62 copy of agreement would not have been actioned.

 

Regards

Peter

 

Hi Peter,

This was signed at home following telephone call to rewrite my account with 0% interest.

Thank you for your observations/comments,much appreciated.

[Peterbard]

Hi

The only issue is whether you had discussion face to face with the creditor at any time regarding the posibility of getting this loan, if you did or if you picked up the aplication from their premisses then

there should have been cancellation details as this falls into the catagory of a cancellable contract.

When you send your cca include," please include notices of cancellation sent as per section 62 of the consumer credit act 1974.

This contract as i am sure you are aware was taken out after anticedant negotiations and signed away from your premises and therfore meets the criterea of a cancelable agreement, you may realise that the failure to provide copies of the cancellation details within 7 days of execution would make the agreement unenforceable under secto 127(4) of the act."

You might work in that you did not recieve these copies under your S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) aplication.

You might want to correct my awful spelling as well

 

Regards

Peter

[angel49]

Peter,

Many thanks for the guidance.I'll sort my letter/cca tonight and will post with what comes from it. Everyones input is very much appreciated so a big thank you all.

As for your spelling Peter, that is of little importance with the invaluable knowledge you have to offer.

[angel49]

P.S. There were no face to face discussions. I got ill, tried to maintain the original payments but within 12 months dropped to half payments. After incessant phone calls,HFC decided to rewrite the loan when it was decided my health would prevent me from returning to work.

I just can't remember what paperwork accompanied the rewritten agreement.

[ian1969uk]

Well, Trading Standards have proved to be useless yet again. I reported MBNA to them for non-compliance with my Section 78 request, MBNA sent me an application form, unsigned by them, containing absolutely none of the prescribed terms. I sent all correspondence to Trading Standards, along with a comprehensive letter stating where the 'credit agreement' was flawed, about harassment, about Section 85 default...the lot.

 

Their reply received today reads as follows:

 

Dear ian1969uk

 

Re: Alliance and Leicester Credit Card

 

I have now had the opportunity to look into your complaint in further detail. It would appear that Alliance and Leicester have now supplied you with a copy of your agreement.

 

I understand from the correspondence you provided that Alliance and Leicester have also agreed to refund the amount of charges you were requesting.

 

You also state in some of your correspondence that you believe the agreement sent to you does not comply in that it does not contain all of the prescribed terms. As your agreement is one for running account credit not all the requirements apply ie special rules apply for different types of agreement; fixed sum credit, hire purchase agreements etc.

 

As the requirement under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 has now been fulfilled, albeit slightly outside the required statutory time period, it would not be deemed to be such a sufficient default to warrant a criminla prosecution.

 

If you require further assistance regarding the civil elements of your complaint, then our Consumer Advice Centre may be able to assist.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Rachel Mason

Trading Standards Officer.

 

 

 

I'm speechless really. They have complied eh Trading Standards? With an application form with no prescribed terms? I received no statement of account nor relevant terms and conditions.

 

I'll need to calm down before composing a reply to Ms Mason. Any thoughts as to what I should say?

[angry cat]

Re: Consumer Credit Act Agreements

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

quote

"Well, Trading Standards have proved to be useless yet again. I reported MBNA to them for non-compliance with my Section 78 request, MBNA sent me an application form, unsigned by them, containing absolutely none of the prescribed terms. I sent all correspondence to Trading Standards, along with a comprehensive letter stating where the 'credit agreement' was flawed, about harassment, about Section 85 default...the lot.

 

Their reply received today reads as follows:

 

Dear ian1969uk

 

Re: Alliance and Leicester Credit Card

 

I have now had the opportunity to look into your complaint in further detail. It would appear that Alliance and Leicester have now supplied you with a copy of your agreement.

 

I understand from the correspondence you provided that Alliance and Leicester have also agreed to refund the amount of charges you were requesting.

 

You also state in some of your correspondence that you believe the agreement sent to you does not comply in that it does not contain all of the prescribed terms. As your agreement is one for running account credit not all the requirements apply ie special rules apply for different types of agreement; fixed sum credit, hire purchase agreements etc.

 

(WELL WHAT ARE THE ie 'SPECIAL RULES?)

 

As the requirement under Section 78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 has now been fulfilled, albeit slightly outside the required statutory time period, it would not be deemed to be such a sufficient default to warrant a criminla prosecution.

 

(WHY NOT?)

 

If you require further assistance regarding the civil elements of your complaint, then our Consumer Advice Centre may be able to assist.

 

(FOB OFF)

 

Yours sincerely

 

Rachel Mason

Trading Standards Officer.

 

 

 

I'm speechless really. They have complied eh Trading Standards? With an application form with no prescribed terms? I received no statement of account nor relevant terms and conditions.

 

I'll need to calm down before composing a reply to Ms Mason. Any thoughts as to what I should say?

 

Ian1996uk,

send the OFT & DTI letters stating that an application form cannot be in place of a Credit Agreement. Escalate the issue and....do NOT take the TS letter as an answer of fact.

Obviously TS don't want to prosecute re: CCA, well if they do not, they are certainly most reluctant to take action against these financial giants.

I wonder why?

 

It is really up to us the consumers, to put the PRESSURE ON Trading Standards who appear to be more intersted in poor old joe bloggs up the market selling his bananas by the Imperial Pound weight, rather than by the EU Kilo.

Anyhow, what the hell was wrong with 16 ounces to the pound and 8 pints to the gallon..."

 

AC

[davey77]

wow i can see why you are angry 'angry cat'! How utterly useless TS are. What's the point of having laws when they decide when and how to enforce them! Personally i would reply with the quote that's floating around on here:

 

RT Hon Ian McCartney MP

Minister for Trade Investment and Foreign Affairs

In relation to the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Credit Card Agreements): “It is also a breach of the Act and the Regulations to send the application form rather than a true copy of the agreement.”

 

Just starting out on the TS route myself and sending the letters off tomorrow and thursday. Guess it's pot luck how they act upon it then!