Cap1 & CCA return

[Guest willowb]

I have been advising people who have been defaulted in this situation to issue a stat notice to the lender. Normally a stat notice can only be issued after a contract has reached it's cessation BUT if the contract is unenforceable because the lender cannot produce the necessary documentation and therefore does not fulfill it's obligations under the law, then I would presume that the contract is then defaulted and ended (doesn't exist!). So, therefore a stat notice would give them 21 days in which to give justifications for their processing of YOUR data to the CRAs, if after 21 days they do not reply or don't give justifiable reasons (considering the CCA non-compliance) then you can issue an N1 and take them to Court......don't think they'd like that! a CCA and stat notice (DPA) non-compliance......hummmm what do you think?

 

Wxxx

[un1boy]

I have been advising people who have been defaulted in this situation to issue a stat notice to the lender. Normally a stat notice can only be issued after a contract has reached it's cessation BUT if the contract is unenforceable because the lender cannot produce the necessary documentation and therefore does not fulfill it's obligations under the law, then I would presume that the contract is then defaulted and ended (doesn't exist!). So, therefore a stat notice would give them 21 days in which to give justifications for their processing of YOUR data to the CRAs, if after 21 days they do not reply or don't give justifiable reasons (considering the CCA non-compliance) then you can issue an N1 and take them to Court......don't think they'd like that! a CCA and stat notice (DPA) non-compliance......hummmm what do you think?

 

Wxxx

 

what about for agreements which have been supplied but have no prescribed terms and so are unenforcable by virtue of 127(3)? can you issue a stat notice then?

[Guest willowb]

Hi hun:)

 

This is my contention, but I am just 'putting it out there' for other thoughts on the issue! I think that if an agreement is unenforceable by any circumstances of non-compliance therefore it doesn't exist and therefore a stat notice (if they proceed or already have defaulted) on a defaulted account would be a valid way forward in forcing them to Court for them to 1. remove the default and 2. admit (or the claimant prove)that they have not complied with the CCA....what d'ya think?

 

Wxxx

[un1boy]

Hi Willow....long time no speak!

 

It could work...

 

Just concerned how it would affect the acknowledgement of a debt where an agreement has been produced but has no prescribed terms.

 

Also, in my experince using the stat notices haven't worked ayway!

 

Although, I haven't ever taken anyone to court over it to be honest!

[Guest willowb]

But it's not an acknowledgement of the debt! it's a notice asking them to give reasons for the adverse data they are processing to the CRAs.

 

I have never taken anyone to Court using a stat notice (yet!) but have won a case using it against Abbey National. As you know SurlyBond's has used it to great effect also.

 

Wxxx

[joneshousehold]

Willow, would this work in other situations. I have just been told that one of my creditors does not have the agreement (hence the comment re floating!). I intend to write and tell them the agreement is unenforceable and I shall no longer make payments. I am still pondering whether to ask for my earlier payments back. The statutory notice route would then be useful as a back up if they won't play ball. There is no default as yet but probably adverse markings for non payment of 2 instalments.

Can you explain what the statutory notice is under, is it CCA the same as Battleaxe et al have done for S85?

[un1boy]

But it's not an acknowledgement of the debt! it's a notice asking them to give reasons for the adverse data they are processing to the CRAs.

 

I have never taken anyone to Court using a stat notice (yet!) but have won a case using it against Abbey National. As you know SurlyBond's has used it to great effect also.

 

Wxxx

 

I see, well I will give it a go with my bank then and let you know what happens.

 

I have used it on T-Mobile, Equifax, Experian and NTL and others, but none have actually removed my data nor given me reasons - they hide behind the the legitimate interest section (can't remember which one it is exaclty)

[un1boy]

Willow, would this work in other situations. I have just been told that one of my creditors does not have the agreement (hence the comment re floating!). I intend to write and tell them the agreement is unenforceable and I shall no longer make payments. I am still pondering whether to ask for my earlier payments back. The statutory notice route would then be useful as a back up if they won't play ball. There is no default as yet but probably adverse markings for non payment of 2 instalments.

Can you explain what the statutory notice is under, is it CCA the same as Battleaxe et al have done for S85?

 

Jones, it is a stat notice under the DPA 1998 to cease from processing your details - they then have 21 days to reply to you stating the reasons why they are continuing to process your details - they are meant to basically show eveidence of default notices etc, but they don't - they hide behind a section which says that they have a legitimate interest.....

 

Willow will be able to explain it in more detail

[Guest willowb]

LOL....no! Check out SB's sticky in 'legalities' for a better understanding....

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/legalities/24013-defaults-proposed-method-removal.html

 

Wxxx

[maybelline]

Working Lunch item - OFT announced today that it is to 'deepen' its investigation into unfair bank

 

charges.BBC NEWS | Business | Study launched into bank charges

 

this item on bbc news site.

[un1boy]

Working Lunch item - OFT announced today that it is to 'deepen' its investigation into unfair bank charges.

 

That's interesting....

 

Any links?

[ian1969uk]

Well, I've just received the same response from Crap One...here's your credit agreement, but nothing else in the envelope. I tried to ring them and it put me through to collections.

 

He asked if I would tell him why I wanted the CA, I said no. Clearly wound up he asked if I would make a payment, I said no. He then said he'd send me a copy of the terms and conditions within 7 days, I said I didn't want the T&C, I wanted a copy of my credit agreement. He said I'd have to speak to customer relations, gave me a number and hung up.

 

I phoned that number and got through to, yes you've guessed it, collections. She asked me if I'd make a payment, I said no I wanted to speak to customer relations. She said unless I made a payment to bring my account up to date I couldn't speak to customer relations. I asked why, and she said it is the same phone number, but she could not put me through without first making a payment. I explained that this was like blackmail, and I wouldn't go along with it. I said I'd write to them instead. I confirmed I would be making no further payments until I had a copy of the CCA. She said she would note that on my account. Then, and this is genuinely true, before she went she said she wondered if I could be persuaded to make a payment.

 

I laughed and put the phone down.

[Rhia]

Working Lunch item - OFT announced today that it is to 'deepen' its investigation into unfair bank charges.

 

This is very interesting as I lodged a compliant with FOS as well as OFT about a month ago and they both wrote and said they would take up my case. Then a few days ago I got another letter from FOS explaining that they had still not been able to allocate it to a case worker but will be doing so within the next couple of weeks.

I have no doubt that both bodies are exceptionally busy but after April 7th every complaint to the FOS will mean a £450 fine against the bank/CCP wether founded or not. So are they getting ready to hit the banks where it hurts in exchange for all of this consumer backlash. I really do hope so.

[un1boy]

Well, I've just received the same response from Crap One...here's your credit agreement, but nothing else in the envelope. I tried to ring them and it put me through to collections.

 

He asked if I would tell him why I wanted the CA, I said no. Clearly wound up he asked if I would make a payment, I said no. He then said he'd send me a copy of the terms and conditions within 7 days, I said I didn't want the T&C, I wanted a copy of my credit agreement. He said I'd have to speak to customer relations, gave me a number and hung up.

 

I phoned that number and got through to, yes you've guessed it, collections. She asked me if I'd make a payment, I said no I wanted to speak to customer relations. She said unless I made a payment to bring my account up to date I couldn't speak to customer relations. I asked why, and she said it is the same phone number, but she could not put me through without first making a payment. I explained that this was like blackmail, and I wouldn't go along with it. I said I'd write to them instead. I confirmed I would be making no further payments until I had a copy of the CCA. She said she would note that on my account. Then, and this is genuinely true, before she went she said she wondered if I could be persuaded to make a payment.

I laughed and put the phone down.

 

I feel sorry for these bank employees - they aren't given the training they need.

 

And the banks themselves don't know what they are talking about anyway....

[elizabeth1]

This is very interesting as I lodged a compliant with them about a month ago and they wrote and said they would take up my case. Then a few days ago I got another letter explaining that they had still not been able to allocate it to a case worker but will be doing so within the next couple of weeks.

I have no doubt that they are exceptionally busy but after April 7th every complaint will mean a £450 fine against the bank/CCP wether founded or not. So are they getting ready to hit the banks where it hurts in exchange for all of this consumer backlash. I really do hope so.

 

 

Me has a stock pile of complaints - ready to send on that date - might post a tad early to make sure I get to top of piles!!!!

[kfdh1962]

That's interesting....

 

Any links?

 

try this uni

 

The Office of Fair Trading: OFT announces 'quick fix' on bank charges will disadvantage consumers

[un1boy]

try this uni

 

The Office of Fair Trading: OFT announces 'quick fix' on bank charges will disadvantage consumers

 

Thanks kfd

[elizabeth1]

I feel sorry for these bank employees - they aren't given the training they need.

 

And the banks themselves don't know what they are talking about anyway....

 

 

I totally agree - these companies had spent years minimising training and even the staff who were lucky enough to gain some training found it was "CBT" Computer Based Training - and they simply learnt to work from "flowcharts"

 

BUT as we see now CAG when members are getting in touch with companies - we simply don't fit a "flowchart" with our queries hence the nonsense we are all repeatedly getting back from these companies :?

 

Even the Supervisors haven't a clue in dealing with us - because their training was rubbish too?

 

Seems like an awful lot of these companies do need to spend some time and money training their staff - cause they sure aren't progressing with this Bank Charges stuff at all.

[un1boy]

I totally agree - these companies had spent years minimising training and even the staff who were lucky enough to gain some training found it was "CBT" Computer Based Training - and they simply learnt to work from "flowcharts"

 

BUT as we see now CAG when members are getting in touch with companies - we simply don't fit a "flowchart" with our queries hence the nonsense we are all repeatedly getting back from these companies :?

 

Even the Supervisors haven't a clue in dealing with us - because their training was rubbish too?

 

Seems like an awful lot of these companies do need to spend some time and money training their staff - cause they sure aren't progressing with this Bank Charges stuff at all.

 

I know, what amazes me though is that most people that work in a bank don't even have to be authorised by the FSA.

 

I think that anyone taking a job in the financial services industry should have to be authorised by them and anyone working for a consumer credit license holder whould have to do some exams to make sure they understand the act and its principles.....

 

That would make sure that the companies actually invevsted properly in their staff..

[elizabeth1]

I know, what amazes me though is that most people that work in a bank don't even have to be authorised by the FSA.

 

I think that anyone taking a job in the financial services industry should have to be authorised by them and anyone working for a consumer credit license holder whould have to do some exams to make sure they understand the act and its principles.....

 

That would make sure that the companies actually invevsted properly in their staff..

 

While the hierachy in these industries see their "staffing" as a "liability" rather than the sound investment that they are - this mess will continue and their staffing will remain "uneducated" for the roles they are doing!!

 

It's because of this "outlook" within these companies that this whole mess across these companies exists!!

 

These companies failed to recognise the "changes" and remained static with their methods of training etc.. within their companies - the whole thing has left them snowed under and it has snowballed into a bigger problem that we see today?

 

They need to change their attitudes and treat their staff as the sound "investments" that they are and train and educate these people to play their roles more efficiently - success will arise from that ??

 

Dinosaur attitudes won't solve anything!!!!

[un1boy]

While the hierachy in these industries see their "staffing" as a "liability" rather than the sound investment that they are - this mess will continue and their staffing will remain "uneducated" for the roles they are doing!!

 

It's because of this "outlook" within these companies that this whole mess across these companies exists!!

 

These companies failed to recognise the "changes" and remained static with their methods of training etc.. within their companies - the whole thing has left them snowed under and it has snowballed into a bigger problem that we see today?

 

They need to change their attitudes and treat their staff as the sound "investments" that they are and train and educate these people to play their roles more efficiently - success will arise from that ??

 

Dinosaur attitudes won't solve anything!!!!

 

Not only Dinosaur attitudes - it's about greed as well - the more they can save on staff training, the more they cacn line their pockets with!!

[Rhia]

Let's be honest the banking fraternity has a huge amount to answer to. These US corprns such as MBNA, Citi, Cap One etc have come storming into the UK as they saw a huge opportunity to wipe up here and then beyond into Europe.

Have you seen their branches springing up in towns and cities across the UK? Nope, perhaps the odd one in London. What they do have are UK HQs in places such as Salford (MBNA) and Glasgow (Morgan Stanley) which are just that - Head offices and usually accompanied by a call centre with low skill staff on low wages subsidised by bonus payments for performance.

These call centres have usually been subsidised by EEC money by city authorities keen to say they are bringing jobs to wherever. When the grant runs out they relocate offshore to the Mumbai muimblers. There was a huge outcry in Scotland recently when Morgan Stanley did exactly this.

But more to the point where do they get their customers from? By buying mailing lists mainly - MBNA has acquired these from all over the place and is the biggest player in the affinity card market such as RSPCA, ClassicFM and many, many football club credit cards.

They then mailshot households or worse still they hire promo staff to push their product in shopping centres and at airports. These people are selling products which are regulated by the FSA and have no training whatsover neither is there anyone to explain just what you are signing when you get that mailshot.

And what has happened over the past decade is the UK banks we used to think we could trust have jumped on the same bandwagon. I know at my local branch a number of staff who were long servers have simply left and you never get to know why but we can all guess - Whistleblower last week graphically illustrated that. of course the blame for overindebtedness can be laid foursquare at the door of the Bank of England. Former Governor Eddie George told a Commons Committee last week that the Bof E had deliberately stoked up the housing market and consumer borrowing as they feared there might be a short term recession. The consequences of that will be here for generations and of course they were aided and assisted by the man who now seeks to be Prime Minister. I was amazed more wasn't made of Eddie George's words - I thought it was a shocking admission.

Only this week we have heard a report that poverty levels are getting worse in the UK, not better.

Someone needs to take a long, hard look at what is going on here and try some joined up thinking.

[angry cat]

Hi Guy's

 

Could you take a look at the following letter that I have just sent to MBNA

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/mbna/463-mbna-europe-bank-penalty-5.html#post685890

 

Thanks

Rhia, I totally agree with our post

 

Love AC

[elizabeth1]

Not only Dinosaur attitudes - it's about greed as well - the more they can save on staff training, the more they cacn line their pockets with!!

 

 

Things do need to change - profits won't solve anything while these companies are so content looking backwards?

 

Training and education of these staff is going to be a key factor in these companies moving forwards and the sooner they recognise this as a fact - the better?

 

Staff are any companies key investment - such a shame they are viewed as a liabilty??

 

I never understood when I was learning accounting etc.. why staff/wages/training costs etc.. came into balance sheets as a liability etc..

It was always something that made me "think" - my own view was that if staff were trained well and as a result performed better etc.. surely that was an asset?? My lecturer used to send me for coffee!!! cause my questions used to be a "spanner in works" :-D I always wondered how the balance sheets would look if we swapped things around a little tad

 

But hey!! who am I to argue with the powers that be?? I guess I am an educationalist at heart?

[un1boy]

Things do need to change - profits won't solve anything while these companies are so content looking backwards?

 

Training and education of these staff is going to be a key factor in these companies moving forwards and the sooner they recognise this as a fact - the better?

 

Staff are any companies key investment - such a shame they are viewed as a liabilty??

 

I never understood when I was learning accounting etc.. why staff/wages/training costs etc.. came into balance sheets as a liability etc..

It was always something that made me "think" - my own view was that if staff were trained well and as a result performed better etc.. surely that was an asset?? My lecturer used to send me for coffee!!! cause my questions used to be a "spanner in works" :-D I always wondered how the balance sheets would look if we swapped things around a little tad

 

But hey!! who am I to argue with the powers that be?? I guess I am an educationalist at heart?

 

I agree with you.....