Cap1 & CCA return

[car2403]

Sorry car your humour has been lost on me here somewhat!!

 

Yup, that's my oo-mer. (For anyone that watches Kath and Kim!)

 

 

Are you suggesting we should be taking these suckers to court??

 

jax

 

Absolutely. I have a quota of County Court Claims that I need to fill each year and I'm running out of things to sue these scumbags on...

 

[jax007]

Absolutely. I have a quota of County Court Claims that I need to fill each year and I'm running out of things to sue these scumbags on...

 

1. How successful have you been with the unenforceable CCAs?

 

2. On what basis do you bring the claim and do you have any info on your step-by-step process?

 

3. Have any of them actually got to a hearing?

 

jax

[star_scream]

I think the deal is that a 'true copy' is all fine and dandy for a request for a CCA, but they would have a hard job enforcing in court without the original signed copy.

 

If they are not obliged to send me a copy, how am I supposed to tell if it is enforceable or not?

[jax007]

They ARE obliged to send you a copy and if they don't send one within the 12-day deadline they are in default and as such cannot enforce it until they do (provided it's an enforceable agreement that is!)

[car2403]

1. How successful have you been with the unenforceable CCAs?

 

Very. Had £21k written off. Had wins and losses along the way.

 

2. On what basis do you bring the claim and do you have any info on your step-by-step process?

 

Have you read this thread?

 

3. Have any of them actually got to a hearing?

 

jax

 

Yes - you can see them all on my CAG threads, here;

 

The Consumer Forums

 

I've been to Court with Barclays, NatWest, (stayed) HFC Bank, (twice) GE Money, just to mention a few. Some non-CCA claims too, such as GE Money and O2.

[jax007]

I've been to Court with Barclays, NatWest, (stayed) HFC Bank, (twice) GE Money, just to mention a few. Some non-CCA claims too, such as GE Money and O2.

 

Thanx car - have the unsuccessful ones been on the unenforceable CCAs?? If so - what happened - did you just end up having to start paying again? And, if so, was the interest added during the time it was in dispute?? I would assume that if the claim was unsuccessful then you would be obliged to pay the interest???

 

On the successful ones - did you have defaults, etc removed. Again, I assume, because it's unenforceable they have to strike all record of it from you Credit Reference?

 

And, of the CCAs, did any of them agree to write off debt before getting to court?

 

Sorry - so many questions - so little time!!!

 

I will of course read your threads!!

[car2403]

Thanx car - have the unsuccessful ones been on the unenforceable CCAs?? If so - what happened - did you just end up having to start paying again? And, if so, was the interest added during the time it was in dispute?? I would assume that if the claim was unsuccessful then you would be obliged to pay the interest???

 

The only unsuccessful claim CCA related was a default removal attempt with GE, in which I queried the enforceability of the agreement when the default was entered. As it turned out, it wasn't irredeemably unenforceable, so the default remains. (An interesting read, actually, as GE refunded the charges applied, as I had doubted the original Default Notice as it contained them, then tried to re-default me again by issuing a new Notice with no charges included. I was on to them, though and paid the arrears before they got a chance!)

 

On the successful ones - did you have defaults, etc removed. Again, I assume, because it's unenforceable they have to strike all record of it from you Credit Reference?

 

I'm yet to have an unenforceable CCA claim come to Court where the Court rules they have to remove the Default. In each of those claims, the cases were dragged out until it was high noon at the ok carral and they settled, removing the CRA info and paying damages as an incentive.

 

An unenforceable CCA won't mean CRA info is removed - an irredeemably unenforceable should, though. (See my example above)

 

And, of the CCAs, did any of them agree to write off debt before getting to court?

 

Answered above, but yes.

 

Sorry - so many questions - so little time!!!

 

I will of course read your threads!!

 

That would be a good idea...

[Rob2008]

What are your views on Capital One's view of the CCA:-

 

If you don't agree anyone got any suggestions for a letter back to them

 

 

 

[car2403]

Oh yes, they may have compiled with their obligations under s.78, but that doesn't mean the debt is enforceable.

[lexis200]

This is what I sent Tow .. it might need a bit of updating but 3 points to remember are 1) remember to send £1 cheque, 2) DON'T sign it - use a fancy font and 3) send it recorded (or 'signed for' - whatever they call it these days).

 

You need to sign a cheque - Postal Orders, although you have to pay for them, are probably safer from that point of view.

[jax007]

An unenforceable CCA won't mean CRA info is removed - an irredeemably unenforceable should, though.

 

And the difference is.................??

[jax007]

You need to sign a cheque - Postal Orders, although you have to pay for them, are probably safer from that point of view.

 

Oops!! Yes ... missed that one Lexis. Alternatively a third party cheque would suffice!

[lexis200]

[car2403]

And the difference is.................??

 

Irredeemably unenforceable would be any CCA unenforceable because of s127(3) CCA 1974.

[star_scream]

They ARE obliged to send you a copy and if they don't send one within the 12-day deadline they are in default and as such cannot enforce it until they do (provided it's an enforceable agreement that is!)

 

I'm confused. How do I reply to the above then?

[car2403]

I'm confused. How do I reply to the above then?

 

I think the point is they have complied with your request and sent them a copy of what they have on file. You have issues with what they have sent, in that the enforceability is questionable - that doesn't change the fact they have complied (in their eyes) with your request.

 

Is there a thread on this, star_scream?

[davefirewalker]

Oh yes, they may have compiled with their obligations under s.78, but that doesn't mean the debt is enforceable.

 

Hi Car......

 

It was always my understanding that the true copy need not be a photocopy but must contain the relevant content and "spirit" of the agreement. Their explanation of what they need and need not to include is flawed. We have been down this path many times

 

excerpt from the 1983 copies and cancellations reggs.........

 

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru*ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.

 

 

section 3 (2) a, highlighted above explains that they MUST include anything that is required to in the agreement by the 1974 act, that in my interpretation would be most of the stuff that they probably did not include. ie Name, Address, prescribed terms, required terms, etc

 

Further if the agreement was originally a cancelable agreement they must include the signature box with date - s 3(2)b

 

Dave

[pt2537]

If they are not obliged to send me a copy, how am I supposed to tell if it is enforceable or not?

Simply, make an application to them advising them that you require a signed copy of the original agreement and you require it in its full form as it was on the day you signed it.

 

make it clear this is not a request made under the consumer credit act 1974 but under the Civil Procedure Rules

 

Part 31.16(3)(d) gives you a right of disclosure where you believe that you have a case and it is desirable for disclosure to allow you to assess if you have a claim or not, this is to allow you to resolve matters at an early stage

 

so i would advise them that if they dont comply with your request within 14 days you will make an application to the court for an order pursuant to CPR 31.16

 

i hope this helps

[Enron]

Heres the OFTs clarification.

 

Similar to yourself I was sent a new copy of Terms & Conditions (albeit from Citi), for an agreement taken out much earlier (1996).... though Citis mistake was referring to the new T&C as the executed agreement.

 

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/1-8.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/Image2.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/Image3.jpg

 

My thoughts were that the request should include a copy of the original executed agreement (though certain items can be omitted), copy of the T&C from the time of the agreement being signed and a new copy of the T&C.

[Guest Alison82]

Simply, make an application to them advising them that you require a signed copy of the original agreement and you require it in its full form as it was on the day you signed it.

 

make it clear this is not a request made under the consumer credit act 1974 but under the Civil Procedure Rules

 

Part 31.16(3)(d) gives you a right of disclosure where you believe that you have a case and it is desirable for disclosure to allow you to assess if you have a claim or not, this is to allow you to resolve matters at an early stage

 

so i would advise them that if they dont comply with your request within 14 days you will make an application to the court for an order pursuant to CPR 31.16

 

i hope this helps

 

Hi is the application under the Civil Procedure Rules only if you have already started a claim? I am trying to get my agreement from Barclaycard for over 3 months but they keep sending me T&C’s, I have stopped making payments however they keep calling me and they may have defaulted my account even though I keep telling them that they are not allowed under the CCA

[steven4064]

Alison

 

You could write to them and request it again and tell them that if they do not supply it you will apply to the court for an order under CPR Part 31.16 (see PART 31 - DISCLOSURE AND INSPECTION OF DOCUMENTS)

[car2403]

Hi Car......

 

It was always my understanding that the true copy need not be a photocopy but must contain the relevant content and "spirit" of the agreement. Their explanation of what they need and need not to include is flawed. We have been down this path many times

 

excerpt from the 1983 copies and cancellations reggs.........

 

General requirements as to form and content of copy documents

3.-(1) Subject to the following provisions of these Regulations, every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall be a true copy thereof.

 

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

 

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instru*ment or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations there under as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

© in the case of any copy of an unexecuted agreement delivered or sent to the debtor or hirer under section 62 of the Act, the name and address of the debtor or hirer; and

(d) in the case of any copy given to the debtor under section 77(1) of the Act of an executed agreement for fixed-sum credit under which a person takes any article in pawn, any description of the article taken in pawn.

 

 

section 3 (2) a, highlighted above explains that they MUST include anything that is required to in the agreement by the 1974 act, that in my interpretation would be most of the stuff that they probably did not include. ie Name, Address, prescribed terms, required terms, etc

 

Further if the agreement was originally a cancelable agreement they must include the signature box with date - s 3(2)b

 

Dave

 

Oh yes, what I should have added to my post was "in their view"...

[underdog13]

I originally took out a mastercard with one of the banks, they later changed this to a visa (for some reason known only unto them); I wasn't sent any new agreements to sign with the visa card - what bearing would this have on their being able to supply an enforceable agreement?

[star_scream]

Simply, make an application to them advising them that you require a signed copy of the original agreement and you require it in its full form as it was on the day you signed it.

 

make it clear this is not a request made under the consumer credit act 1974 but under the Civil Procedure Rules

 

Part 31.16(3)(d) gives you a right of disclosure where you believe that you have a case and it is desirable for disclosure to allow you to assess if you have a claim or not, this is to allow you to resolve matters at an early stage

 

so i would advise them that if they dont comply with your request within 14 days you will make an application to the court for an order pursuant to CPR 31.16

 

i hope this helps

Yes it does help, thank you.

[star_scream]

Heres the OFTs clarification.

 

Similar to yourself I was sent a new copy of Terms & Conditions (albeit from Citi), for an agreement taken out much earlier (1996).... though Citis mistake was referring to the new T&C as the executed agreement.

 

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/1-8.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/Image2.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c104/telso/Image3.jpg

 

My thoughts were that the request should include a copy of the original executed agreement (though certain items can be omitted), copy of the T&C from the time of the agreement being signed and a new copy of the T&C.

Thanks Enron. This says to me that the copy must be a copy of the original, no more, no less. Is that correct?