Cap1 & CCA return

[angry cat]

Surprise, Surprise Guy's,

 

I cannot get TS to prosecute!

 

Morgan Stanley has committed a Criminal Offence by not supplying me with a true copy of the Credit Agreement...after about 6 months they sent a copy of their terms & conditions circa 2006 with no (zero) credit limit, it was actually a generic mailer with no credit card.

 

MS interpretation re compliance is reg 3 1983 regs

 

TS does not agree with the MS interpretation due to reg 7

 

Therefore there is a difference of opinion re compliance between TS & MS and as there is no case law that they (TS) can go on...TS will not prosecute.

 

Personally, I have not heard from MS re their interpretation about their alleged compliance; as always MS are reluctant to put pen to paper. Anyhow, I have been advised by TS to wait for 2 weeks in order that I might receive correspondance from MS!?

 

So, there we have it...MS do not have a copy of the Agreement, I reported them to the enforcement TS Officer...what happened Nothing. No wonder the banks do a fingers up, they know that TS cannot do anything.

 

Looks like that I will have to obtain a solicitors advice, which is what I originally surmised...Oh Dear, what a waste of time.

 

AC

[m55dlc]

Question: what exactly should a statement of account contain for the creditor to comply with a CCA request.

 

Paul

 

 

Hope this answers your question:

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

(a) the state of the account, and

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

[Guest Battleaxe]

Surprise, Surprise Guy's,

 

I cannot get TS to prosecute!

 

Morgan Stanley has committed a Criminal Offence by not supplying me with a true copy of the Credit Agreement...after about 6 months they sent a copy of their terms & conditions circa 2006 with no (zero) credit limit, it was actually a generic mailer with no credit card.

 

MS interpretation re compliance is reg 3 1983 regs

 

TS does not agree with the MS interpretation due to reg 7

 

Therefore there is a difference of opinion re compliance between TS & MS and as there is no case law that they (TS) can go on...TS will not prosecute.

 

Personally, I have not heard from MS re their interpretation about their alleged compliance; as always MS are reluctant to put pen to paper. Anyhow, I have been advised by TS to wait for 2 weeks in order that I might receive correspondance from MS!?

 

So, there we have it...MS do not have a copy of the Agreement, I reported them to the enforcement TS Officer...what happened Nothing. No wonder the banks do a fingers up, they know that TS cannot do anything.

 

Looks like that I will have to obtain a solicitors advice, which is what I originally surmised...Oh Dear, what a waste of time.

 

AC

 

AC

 

Issue an N1 for Non-compliance against MS, this way they have to lodge a defence with the Courts. if they can't bring an agreement into court you get your costs and perhaps the Judge will say no debt. MS wont want to go to court if the there is no agreement. I would also lodge a complaint with the ICO regarding this. it will add strength to your Non compliance through the courts. The ICO will take care of MS even though they wont prosecute. TS do not have the teeth to do this but the FSA and FOS will. No need to involve a solicitor. Let the local county court judge do the work.

[un1boy]

AC

 

Issue an N1 for Non-compliance against MS, this way they have to lodge a defence with the Courts. if they can't bring an agreement into court you get your costs and perhaps the Judge will say no debt. MS wont want to go to court if the there is no agreement. I would also lodge a complaint with the ICO regarding this. it will add strength to your Non compliance through the courts. The ICO will take care of MS even though they wont prosecute. TS do not have the teeth to do this but the FSA and FOS will. No need to involve a solicitor. Let the local county court judge do the work.

 

Also, report it to the OFT - although they don't act on individual cases, they told me they need to know all of this because they will use the info to decide whether to renew their credit licenses - the guy there seemed VERY interested in me telling them and really encouraged me to send it all in.

 

Plus, they have to pay around £450 for each complaint made....

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Hope this answers your question:

 

78 Duty to give information to debtor under running-account credit agreement

 

(1) The creditor under a regulated agreement for running-account credit, within the prescribed period after receiving a request in writing to that effect from the debtor and payment of a fee of £1, shall give the debtor a copy of the executed agreement (if any) and of any other document referred to in it, together with a statement signed by or on behalf of the creditor showing, according to the information to which it is practicable for him to refer,—

 

(a) the state of the account, and

 

(b) the amount, if any, currently payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor, and

 

© the amounts and due dates of any payments which, if the debtor does not draw further on the account, will later become payable under the agreement by the debtor to the creditor.

 

 

paul is quite well aware this exists !!!!!

[m55dlc]

Question: what exactly should a statement of account contain for the creditor to comply with a CCA request.

 

Paul

 

paul is quite well aware this exists !!!!!

 

I'm only making sure FC, and it was as a direct response to a direct question.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

I'm only making sure FC, and it was as a direct response to a direct question.

if you read this persons threads you would know he is very very knowledgable -- he is in the top ten of which i am not in the top hundred !!l

[m55dlc]

Sections 77 to 79 are quite detailed as to what is required. I am aware of who posted the question and I think that, on reading the act, the specifics are listed in a reasonably straight forward manner. There are provisions for inconsistencies within the record keeping process and / or business model for different companies but, on the whole, there isn't a great deal of wriggle room.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

anyhow ml55 back to business (we are all in the same team)

 

Rules on credit agreements | Business Link

 

good link her to the key points on credit agreements

 

QUESTION FOR INK

 

THE KEY FINANCIAL POINTS INFORMATION

 

AS PER THIS LINK

Rules on credit agreements | Business Link

 

 

 

ARE THEY ---- MEANING THE KEY POINTS ----

 

THE "PRESCRIBED TERMS" THAT WERE ORIGINALLY TALKED ABOUT IN SAY THE 1983 REGS ????

 

 

KEY POINTS

1)THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT

2)THE TERM OF THE CREDIT

3)THE TOTAL AMOUNT PAYABLE

4)THE APR

 

YOU MUST ALSO PROVIDE INFORMATION ON THE RATE OF INTEREST , DEFAULT AND EARLY PAYMENT AND OTHER CHARGES SO THAT CUSTOMERS CAN COMPARE DIFFERENT DEALS BEFORE MAKING UP THEIR MINDS

 

ANOTHER QUESTION IS WHAT YEAR EXECUTED AGREEMENT WISE DO THESE KEY POINTS APPLY TO

 

SAY 2000 2001 NOR WHAT???

[m55dlc]

Oh, I took it to mean that Paul was asking for what a statement of account should contain (i.e. what is to be provided alongside the agreement) not what the agreement itself should contain to be a proper agreement.

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Oh, I took it to mean that Paul was asking for what a statement of account should contain (i.e. what is to be provided alongside the agreement) not what the agreement itself should contain to be a proper agreement.

OK no problem we all make mistakes (that's how we got into our positions ) but your punishment is to click on the link and print out six copies of the key financial information and put one in your car etc ...

 

these "KEY POINTS" are so important for agreements signed this side of the millenium -- but some people have much older agreements and that is why i neeed "the oracle" inc to comment on my questio

[m55dlc]

FC, you missed the sarcasm....

I say again, I thought Paul asked for what a STATEMENT OF ACCOUNT should be, not what the KEY POINTS OF THE FINANCIAL INFORMATION (aka the prescribed terms) were. Paul is aware of what those are, as are you.

[JonCris]

Angry cat prepare a report & tell TS that it is your intention to report them for maladministration. I'm sure there are few others here who will happily support your complaint

[davefirewalker]

Angry Cat I'm in almost the same boat.

 

just as the twelve days expired MS have sent me my application (they admitted it was an application) with no prescribed terms. some poorly copied t&c and a mailer card with my latest credit limit on it and of course current terms.

 

I wrote back on 2 April and said I wanted the original signed docs. not heard anything as yet apart from an acknowledgement that they would look into my concerns

 

They are soooooooo in default (v soon)

 

Dave

Dave

[ian1969uk]

They are soooooooo in default (v soon)

 

They are already in default!

[davefirewalker]

yeah ok I Know what I meant

 

what I really meant is that they will have comitted an offence and I can have a go at them

 

Dave

[InKogneeToh]

anyhow ml55 back to business (we are all in the same team)

 

Rules on credit agreements | Business Link

 

good link her to the key points on credit agreements

 

QUESTION FOR INK

 

THE KEY FINANCIAL POINTS INFORMATION

 

AS PER THIS LINK

Rules on credit agreements | Business Link

 

 

 

ARE THEY ---- MEANING THE KEY POINTS ----

 

 

THE "PRESCRIBED TERMS" THAT WERE ORIGINALLY TALKED ABOUT IN SAY THE 1983 REGS ????

 

 

KEY POINTS

1)THE AMOUNT OF CREDIT

2)THE TERM OF THE CREDIT

3)THE TOTAL AMOUNT PAYABLE

4)THE APR

 

YOU MUST ALSO PROVIDE INFORMATION ON THE RATE OF INTEREST , DEFAULT AND EARLY PAYMENT AND OTHER CHARGES SO THAT CUSTOMERS CAN COMPARE DIFFERENT DEALS BEFORE MAKING UP THEIR MINDS

 

ANOTHER QUESTION IS WHAT YEAR EXECUTED AGREEMENT WISE DO THESE KEY POINTS APPLY TO

 

SAY 2000 2001 NOR WHAT???

 

Hi

 

Key Financial Information is a new requirement from the Agreement Regs (Amended) 2004 and applies to all agreements after May 2005.

 

This information is broadly the same as has always been required under the CCA but it now has to be presented in 2 boxes - Key Information and Other Information.

 

For the specific requirements for form and content of pre-amendment agreements you should check the OFT 2003 documents on cancellable and non-cancellable agreements.

 

Regards, Pam

[Peterbard]

Your correct Pam the 2006 ammendments are not retrospective and only apply to new agreements taken out after it becomes effective.

 

Hi

Not entirely true ,there are a few af the ammendments that apply whenever the agreement was made.

An interesting one is the requirement to give anual statements section77a which will be enforceable even to existing agreements. If you have not recieved a statement within 12 months then you will not be liable for any interest charges after that time as they wil be in default.

 

Regards

Peter

[FANTASY CHARGES]

Hi

 

Key Financial Information is a new requirement from the Agreement Regs (Amended) 2004 and applies to all agreements after May 2005.

 

This information is broadly the same as has always been required under the CCA but it now has to be presented in 2 boxes - Key Information and Other Information.

 

For the specific requirements for form and content of pre-amendment agreements you should check the OFT 2003 documents on cancellable and non-cancellable agreements.

 

Regards, Pam

THANKS INK as usual "the oracle" respondeth with

 

"a clear concise answer "

 

i realised the requirements had been "repackaged" wasn't sure whether the ingredients were basically the same.

 

just one more question if you were asked from the point of view of the debtor would you say the new regs that apply from MAY 2005 agreements signed make it harder for the debtor to have the debt declared unenforceable ? if so

 

then by definition if the creditor cannot satisfy the key points that came into effect in may 2005 then he can't satisfy that what was required to satisfy the earlier regulations.

[Peterbard]

Hi

 

You finished your home (shed) improvements then Peter? I bet you've been admiring your treasures all afternoon haven't you!

 

If you can find anything that says a non-cancellable agreement should state that it is then I'll come and personally autograph them for you!! :D

 

Regards, Spot Free Pam

 

Hi Pam

 

8 After paragraph 22 insert -

 

• Cancellation rights23.Agreements which are not cancellable agreements.A statement that the agreement is not cancellable

1482 Agreement ammendments Will you come down and sign or shalli just accept another plaque.

 

Hah

Peter

[The Lantana]

That's very interesting Peter, which regs is that from?

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[Peterbard]

THANKS INK as usual "the oracle" respondeth with

 

"a clear concise answer "

 

i realised the requirements had been "repackaged" wasn't sure whether the ingredients were basically the same.

 

just one more question if you were asked from the point of view of the debtor would you say the new regs that apply from MAY 2005 agreements signed make it harder for the debtor to have the debt declared unenforceable ? if so

 

then by definition if the creditor cannot satisfy the key points that came into effect in may 2005 then he can't satisfy that what was required to satisfy the earlier regulations.

 

 

Hi

Clear and precise?

 

The ammendments are really quite wide ranging check them out for yoursef they are on the end of the 2004/1482 regs

 

Regards

Peter

[Peterbard]

That's very interesting Peter, which regs is that from?

 

Regards

 

Lantana

 

Hi 2004/1482

 

Ammendments

 

Regards

Peter

[FANTASY CHARGES]

OK now for the "HOLY GRAIL" question

 

how can i get a copy of the 1983 regulations ?

[Peterbard]

THANKS INK as usual "the oracle" respondeth with

 

"a clear concise answer "

 

i realised the requirements had been "repackaged" wasn't sure whether the ingredients were basically the same.

 

just one more question if you were asked from the point of view of the debtor would you say the new regs that apply from MAY 2005 agreements signed make it harder for the debtor to have the debt declared unenforceable ? if so

 

then by definition if the creditor cannot satisfy the key points that came into effect in may 2005 then he can't satisfy that what was required to satisfy the earlier regulations.

HI

This wasn't perhaps addressed to me but i wil answer it anyway.

After Apriil 6th there will be no way to make a debt unenforceable under section127(3)

This means that even an agreement without the prescribed terms or signature wil be up for consideration to enforce by the court, although it is extremely unlikely they would .

I wrote a letter to the dti protesting this some time ago and got a response basically which said due to the increasing of the financial limit of the cca it would be unfair to have aan agreement pronounced unenforceable because of a minor draughting error,(like haveing no signature is minor error).I posted the letter on here somewhere if you want a laugh.

 

You can however declare unenforceability on so,e of the remaining sections of the 127 which is an aspect that i think more of us should be looking at

 

Regards

Peter