Cap1 & CCA return

[Fullyskinted]

Surely a copy of an application form can not be a credit agreement - UNLESS it has been signed by the credit company, eg when you get a copy of your app sent back to you after the loan has started, and it has been signed by the credit company?

 

And - Just a quick one on CCA requests guys, I have used the search function yo no avail, and cannot for the life of me find a CCA Template Letter... Any pointers???

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

My assumption is that if they provide you with a copy of a credit agreement signed by you, its above board. Also, Id probably be inclined to think that an application form signed by you, and some sort of welcome letter with your signature accepting it would be classed as suitable evidence.

 

Just do a search in this thread for template

[bill-k]

Surely a copy of an application form can not be a credit agreement - UNLESS it has been signed by the credit company, eg when you get a copy of your app sent back to you after the loan has started, and it has been signed by the credit company?

 

And - Just a quick one on CCA requests guys, I have used the search function yo no avail, and cannot for the life of me find a CCA Template Letter... Any pointers???

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Here ya go Mike, there's three here:-

 

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 s78 (1) Demand

Dear Sir or Madam

Account No:

 

Please supply me with a true copy of the credit agreement under which this account is conducted.

 

This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.78 (1) for running – account credit).

 

Your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account.

 

I enclose a £1 cheque (xxxxxx) in payment of the statutory fee.

 

Please be aware that you are obliged to supply these documents within 12 days, under S189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sir/Madam

 

Re:− Account/Reference Number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

With reference to the above agreement, we would be grateful if you would send us a copy of this credit agreement.

 

We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (Sections 77−79), we are entitled to receive a copy of our credit agreement on request. We enclose a payment of £1.00 which represents the fee payable under the Consumer Credit Act.

 

We understand a copy of our credit agreement should be supplied within 12 working days.

 

We understand that under the Consumer Credit Act creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

We look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

Mr A N Other

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Sir or Madam: XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 s78 (1) Demand

 

1. I require you to supply me with a true copy of the credit agreement under which this account is conducted. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.78 (1) for running – account credit) - your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £1 cheque (xxxxxx) in payment of the statutory fee.

 

3. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, under S189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

Take note at this stage, that any legal action you may contemplate will be both vigorously defended and contested.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the Consumer Credit Act and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Furthermore you are reminded that under s78 sub section (6) whilst the default continues you are not entitled to enforce the agreement in law

 

 

Yours faithfully

Quote:

Originally Posted by tamadus

Again this is modified from a letter found on another thread, please adapt it to suit your own individual cases. Basically they have 12 working days from receipt to supply a copy of the signed credit agreement, after that they go into default and have a total of 30 calender days to provide it after which they are commiting a criminal act and the debt becomes unenforceable in law, so this is a very serious situation for them.

[me_n_my_kids]

Can you do a cca on an overdraft?

 

My partners was set up on the phone with abbey, he never signed anything with them. Im just wondering, does that mean there was never any agreement in the first place?

[un1boy]

Surely a copy of an application form can not be a credit agreement - UNLESS it has been signed by the credit company, eg when you get a copy of your app sent back to you after the loan has started, and it has been signed by the credit company?

 

And - Just a quick one on CCA requests guys, I have used the search function yo no avail, and cannot for the life of me find a CCA Template Letter... Any pointers???

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Try this mate:

 

Credit Card Number: xxxxx

After recently obtaining a copy of my credit file from Experian and Equifax I was concerned to note that your company has placed a "Default" notice against the above accounts in my name.

Further to this I have no recollection of ever receiving such a notice, and I therefore require you to substantiate this data at your earliest convenience.

1. You must supply me with a true copy of the alleged agreement you refer to. This is my right under your obligation to supply a copy of the agreement under the legislation contained within s.78 (1) Consumer Credit Act 1974 (s.77 (1) for fixed sum credit). Your obligation also extends to providing a statement of account. I enclose a £2 cheque in payment of the statutory fee for providing this information (to cover both accounts); cheque number xxxxx

2. You must supply me with a signed true and certified copy of the original default notice

3. Any deed of assignment if the debt was sold on

4. You are notified that you are obliged to supply these documents, whether you are the original creditor or not under S189 of the CCA 1974.

You have 14 days in order to supply me with this data; if you are unable to provide this data then I must insist that it is removed from my files as unsubstantiated. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable.

[un1boy]

Can you do a cca on an overdraft?

 

My partners was set up on the phone with abbey, he never signed anything with them. Im just wondering, does that mean there was never any agreement in the first place?

 

This is a bit of a grey area and I personally believe they are or at least should be. They credit check you and put your account behaviour on your credit files, yet say that the OD is not credit and not regulated under the CCA.

 

Others disagree with me.

 

Example 6 from the CCA reads:

 

EXAMPLE 6

Facts. The G Bank grants H (an individual) an unlimited overdraft, with an increased rate of interest on so much of any debit balance as exceeds £2,000.

Analysis. Although the overdraft purports to be unlimited, the stipulation for increased interest above £2,000 brings the agreement within section 10(3)(b)(ii) and it is a consumer credit agreement.

 

Also, I am in the process of claiming back monies I have paid agsainst a defaulted OD so I will let you knoe how that pans out!

[GSMGuy]

Thanks guys

 

Mike

[bill-k]

Thanks, Un1boy. Yes, it seems grey to me too. At present, I am assuming that the CCA doesn't cover current accounts, but that the request for a true signed copy of the contract should be made as part of the Data Protection Act S.A.R - (Subject Access Request).

But, as Un1boy suggests, as soon as the bank grants credit (ie in the form of an overdraft), then it seems that must then come under the CCA.

 

Someone like Tamadus might have some help on this ?

 

PS - cheers for the rep.

[paulwlton]

I believe overdrafts are an anomaly regarding the CCA Act ie different rules apply.

[un1boy]

Yes, this is why I am not sure either - they aren't covered by the looks of things, but likewise I don't think any banks have been challenged about it either, I may have something up my sleeve so I will post details when I can!!

[un1boy]

I believe overdrafts are an anomaly regarding the CCA Act ie different rules apply.

 

Do we know which rules?

[Guest The Terminator]

My assumption is that if they provide you with a copy of a credit agreement signed by you, its above board. Also, Id probably be inclined to think that an application form signed by you, and some sort of welcome letter with your signature accepting it would be classed as suitable evidence.

 

Just do a search in this thread for template

 

You have to go back to the CCA and read what it specificlly say's " a copy of the original executed agreement" not application form with your signiture on.Lets face it and im looking at this realistically and I've said it many times if an application is turned down what is there to say that it can't be fraudantly used by an unscrupulous provider.Again clicking I accept on an online application is that sufficent enough to execute an agreement and I note that is what Crapeitall One are doing at the moment.I have spoken to lawyers at work about this and I get the same reply an agreement can only be above board if it has two signitures and its dated and when I judge wants to see a true copy of the executed agreement that is what he means.

[Number6]

You have to go back to the CCA and read what it specificlly say's " a copy of the original executed agreement" not application form with your signiture on.Lets face it and im looking at this realistically and I've said it many times if an application is turned down what is there to say that it can't be fraudantly used by an unscrupulous provider.Again clicking I accept on an online application is that sufficent enough to execute an agreement and I note that is what Crapeitall One are doing at the moment.I have spoken to lawyers at work about this and I get the same reply an agreement can only be above board if it has two signitures and its dated and when I judge wants to see a true copy of the executed agreement that is what he means.

 

I agree.

 

How can a piece of paper claim to be an agreement unless it has something on it that signifies acceptance by all parties, e.g. signatures of all parties? And that it has on it ALL of the terms of any agreement?

 

An application form cannot be a legally binding agreement unless it is at least signed and dated by both sides.

 

Pete

[Fullyskinted]

I agree.

 

How can a piece of paper claim to be an agreement unless it has something on it that signifies acceptance by all parties, e.g. signatures of all parties? And that it has on it ALL of the terms of any agreement?

 

An application form cannot be a legally binding agreement unless it is at least signed and dated by both sides.

 

Pete

 

Yeh, I think you guys misunderstood me a little.

 

Im saying that if you put an application in, sign it and then you get accepted, they then send you a 'Welcome to Debtville' letter. You then sign the letter/acceptance . An organisation wouldnt necessarily 'sign' an agreement will it.

 

Im basically saying that Im with you guys, but maybe widening my eyes a little more.

Ultimately I just asked for signed copies of the credit agreement (not application form ) with my CCA letter.

[ecobabe]

can i just throw my tuppence worth in here, as most folks know that have read this over past few days i've just had a large debt written off for this reason , no agreement. anyway i've also been in correspondence with barclaycard over a really old account they have chased me for recently, after a gap of a few years. it's not for very much money and i know for a fact that i will have paid more than double in charges. anyway they sent me a copy of the original application form, with my signature on it . i thought b****r! but when i thought about it, it's not the agreement, it only has one signature. and also don't forget as well as the possibility of being turned down for credit (so it ain't an agreement) there is always a cooling off period when you sign something like that. I have signed for double glazing before including finance, and then written and cancelled it cos i had been pressurised. so as well as the possibility of your application form being turned down you could change your mind in the cooling off period and cancel!!so if an application form can be used then the charlatans that got me to agree to double glazing could send my form and try to enforce it!! and I don't think that would be acceptable. Anyway back to me (isn't it always!) , I wrote to Barclaycard and told them that is wasn't a properly executed agreement and they agreed and wrote and told me that they would not be pursuing it. so it is worth thinking about, I certainly don't think an application form is sufficient even if it's signed by both parties

[Fullyskinted]

I wrote to Barclaycard and told them that is wasn't a properly executed agreement and they agreed and wrote and told me that they would not be pursuing it. so it is worth thinking about, I certainly don't think an application form is sufficient even if it's signed by both parties

 

So, are you saying BCard wrote the debt off on that basis? that they couldnt find the original credit agreement?

(Without researching your thread(s) I dont know the circumstances )

[elsinore]

I certainly don't think an application form is sufficient even if it's signed by both parties

 

If only for the fact that the terms actually applied to the running of an account may well differ from any proposed on the application form.

 

Elsinore

[ecobabe]

i don't have a thread on it. it was a small amount of money from a long time ago 1993. i had paid it regularly and as far as i was aware i had paid about £900 to it over 4-5 months in ~2000. then there was no contact for couple of years, then in ~2002 they started writing again which i ignored , then i responded at some point but didn't pay anything. this was on & off til earlier in year. I cca'd them and the rest i have told in last post, copy of original application form. The file is now closed. but if you read back the posts since thurs you'll see that i had a major success with a different company. but effectively they didn't have the agreement.

[Fullyskinted]

I was just thinking about when my bank acct was opened. Id estimate at between 5 and 13. Probably the latter. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but IF i singed anything, I was probably a little too young to undersatnd any of the mumbo jumbo. And whilst I may well have uprated the acct since then, I dont recall signing anything - bit they have obviously sent me the uprated accts T&Cs. Thanks Barclays

[ecobabe]

are you still using it or is it now in hands in hands of dca? i'm not too sure about bank overdrafts, but i suspect that they're the same.

[Fullyskinted]

Yeh I still have a Barclays acct!

None of my cards/accts are in the hands of DCAs (yet!)

[meagain]

When I turned 18, LTSB told me that they were unable to upgrade a U19 account to a current account, but rather I would need to open a new account, though all the details and balance would be transferred as if I were moving my account from elsewhere.

[un1boy]

I was just thinking about when my bank acct was opened. Id estimate at between 5 and 13. Probably the latter. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but IF i singed anything, I was probably a little too young to undersatnd any of the mumbo jumbo. And whilst I may well have uprated the acct since then, I dont recall signing anything - bit they have obviously sent me the uprated accts T&Cs. Thanks Barclays

 

Well if you were ever charged for going into an unagreed overdraft or anything under the age of 18 then it is illegal for them to recover the moeny from you; under 18's aren't legally responsible for their debts, that's why no one lends to them!

 

I got charge when I was 17 and expalined this to them, they promptly returned the charges "as a gesture of goodwill."

 

In terms of your point about not understanding, that's a very good point. jsut because you've upgraded your account doesn't mean you've seen the T&C's.

 

If I was a bank, I would ensure (for my own protection more than anything) that everyone signs a new app with the T&C's and that they sign the T&C's as well and both of us take a copy then. Even if it's an upgrade

 

The trouble today is that everyone wants everyhting now. If you had to sign the new app and T&C's first, you would think about upgraded or whatever first becasue it would take you longer - even if it's just 5 minutes.

 

This is the same for credit searches - when you apply for an Ovedraft with your bank, they tend to just credit check you, no signature or anything so what if you contacted the CRA and said you didn't give permission? How would they prove that you did for a start? I would make the customer sign a form to agree to it and that they understand the implications.

 

I just think that we should all take things a lottle slower sometimes, especially things like credit etc which can have such a massive impact on our lives!

 

Rant over. )

[tamadus]

I fully agree with both Terminator and Number6. An agreement should be signed by both parties etc etc.

 

The current trend though is to include all the items required by the CCA on the application form, this then gets bundled with a copy of the terms and conditions referred to in it and becomes the agreement. As long as it contains those required items then it will probably stand up in court.

 

Once the new regulations become effective in 2007 Electronic signatures will be allowed which is a lot more worrying as it effectively means that you will not even need to sign the agreement or application for it to be effective.

[Guest The Terminator]

I fully agree with both Terminator and Number6. An agreement should be signed by both parties etc etc.

 

 

Once the new regulations become effective in 2007 Electronic signatures will be allowed which is a lot more worrying as it effectively means that you will not even need to sign the agreement or application for it to be effective.

 

Thats only for cards and loans etc taken out when the new regs come in it's not retrospective.

[un1boy]

That's still a crazy thing to put in the legislation though, eh?