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    • Thank you. I expect that @dx100uk will be along soon to give advice. Meanwhile, I really wonder whether the default date – as being the starting point of the six years – something which has been decided in law. It has always seemed to me to be extremely unfair. According to the limitation act, the six year period begins from the date on which the cause of action accrued. This normally means that the breach of contract occurred. Section 6 of the limitation act says that in terms of loans, the cause of action begins on the date that the debt was "demanded". Over the past two years this has come to mean the date that the default notice was issued – but I have to say I don't find that very satisfactory. If you received demands for payment before then then I don't see why section 6 shouldn't refer to that date. Did you not receive any correspondence at all in 2017/2018? What was the value of the original loan – and how much you pay off? I see that there was some kind of instalment agreement. Tell us about that. See what my colleague @dx100uk says but anyway, if I were you I would send off an SAR immediately both to the claimant and also to the original creditor. It costs you nothing. There is no downside. Get in the post straightaway with some kind of utility bill establishing your identity. You can even include a copy of the claim form as well as proof of your identity
    • £749.69 court fee £70 legal fee £70 total £889.68 MyJar TM.pdf
    • Please read and complete the following posting your responses back here for further advice.  
    • Thank you. I'm going to say that the photographs really don't say very much and once again it's a real shame that you didn't take lots of photographs of all the issues including the Windows and the state of the inside of the room. You can certainly bring a claim here if you want and we will help you but I'm really not sure of your chances of success. It sounds to me as if the manager you spoke to was dismissive and nothing was particularly agreed or admitted. If you want to bring a claim then I would start off by establishing a paper trail where you point out the things that were wrong and the fact that you discuss this with the duty manager who appeared to be dismissive. You could ask them then in general terms if they have any proposals to make. I think you're in weak position. I don't think you should start threatening them with legal action or anything at the moment and even if you did bring a legal action for the full amount I would probably advise you to negotiate a settlement of maybe 50% – if you're lucky – at mediation. Have you tried putting up Google reviews and reviews on trust pilot? This could also be a good way to start. I'm very sorry but when you deal with these kinds of issues then you need to collect evidence as quickly as possible. It is the first thing you always do when there is a poor hotel, a stone in your cornflakes or a motor accident. I'm afraid that you have to think this way and maybe it doesn't come naturally – but having run the consumer action group for 18 years, this is rather second nature. If you have any phone calls with them then you should read our customer services guide first and then confirm any admissions they might make in writing.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Cap1 & CCA return


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The case law to back up our argument: note the emphasis.

 

33. In my judgment the objective of Schedule 6 is to ensure that, as an inflexible condition of enforceability, certain basic minimum terms are included which the parties (with the benefit of legal advice if necessary) and/or the court can identify within the four corners of the agreement. Those minimum provisions combined with the requirement under section 61 that all the terms should be in a single document, and backed up by the provisions of section 127 (3), ensure that these core terms are expressly set out in the agreement itself: they cannot be orally agreed; they cannot be found in another document; they cannot be implied; and above all they cannot be in the slightest mis-stated. As a matter of policy, the lender is denied any room for manoeuvre in respect of them. On the other hand, they are basic provisions, and the only question for the court is whether they are, on a true construction, included in the agreement.

 

This backs up our argument with the many credit providers who have obtained our signature on application forms and agreement documents that do not themselves contain all the prescribed terms. Many seem to believe that it is acceptable to have the prescribed terms on another document, often shown with all the other terms and conditions of the contract.

 

NOT SO!

 

Hi Paul

 

In a recent case when shown a phohoto copy of a front of an agreement with just a signature and a statement from the creditor that the terms would have been on the back

The judge said some thing like " these are major institutions with a great deal of expertise in the legislation required in their trade and it is not i believe probable that they would make such an error as to have not included the terms on the same document as the signature."

 

My question is this;

if they are so wise in the ways of the cca 1974 why didn't they ensure that the prescribed terms were on the same scanable page as the signature box, surely such an all knowing organisation would have realised that this left them wide open to asection 127(3) of the act.

Then you must ask if they can make such an obvious error as that is it not possible they made another and did not include the terms in the document at all.Personally i think it is.

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Hi Paul

 

In a recent case when shown a phohoto copy of a front of an agreement with just a signature and a statement from the creditor that the terms would have been on the back

The judge said some thing like " these are major institutions with a great deal of expertise in the legislation required in their trade and it is not i believe probable that they would make such an error as to have not included the terms on the same document as the signature."

 

My question is this;

if they are so wise in the ways of the cca 1974 why didn't they ensure that the prescribed terms were on the same scanable page as the signature box, surely such an all knowing organisation would have realised that this left them wide open to asection 127(3) of the act.

Then you must ask if they can make such an obvious error as that is it not possible they made another and did not include the terms in the document at all.Personally i think it is.

 

Peter

 

I know of the above case and the one where the court enforced the agreement simply because the Claimant produced the signed credit card which had been sent back earlier. IMO both cases were argued in front of inept prejudicial judges. The Act, regs and recent case law suggests the judge got it wrong.

An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last. <br />

Winston Churchill

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Hi

I started thinking about this signature thing and it re-occured to me that there is a window for the use of section 127(3) where the agrement would have to have the signature undespersrsed with the rest of the terms and conditions, between August 2005 and 6 April 2007.

 

Between these dates any agrement would have to have the signature box contained undesperced along with the rest of the schedule 1 information.

 

THe first date being the commencement of the agrement regulations 2004/1482,and the second the date of the removal of section 127(3) from the act.

 

I wonder how many agrements this would apply to?

 

Peter

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Hi

 

The terms of the agreement are things like the amouont of the loan the amount of the reapyment and the interst rate these are the most important and must be correct so much so that the act prescribes that they must be correct ,if they are not it cannot be enforced, hence prescribed terms.

 

All the other terms like the total amount payable the default information the APR etc are required to be within the agreement also but the penalty for them not being there or being incorrect is less, in that a court can enforce the agreement.

All thes terms are set out in the schedules of the agreement regulations and are periodically ammended by act of parliament.

 

The form of an agrement is the way that it is presented orthe format. Requirements for this are also contained within the agreement regulations but in the various sections.

Form governs things like the need for the legibility of the text, the fact that certain information should be in a bolder type than others, which information should be grouped together, which can be interspersed throughout the document, size and placement of signature boxes etc.

If the creditor does not follow the regulations regarding the form they also breach the act but it is usually only considered a minor breach.

 

However it is important that all these terms are contained within the agreement not in a sepperate piece of paper with terms and conditions on it they must be within the signature document if they were not then it would be a major breach and should result in the agrement being unenforceable particularily if they are prescribed terms.

 

In the case of an agreement for a credit agrement pre August 2005 the signature can be anywhere in the document which means that the terms prescribed or otherwise can be on the reverse,or in an attached sheet even, if it forms part of the same document.

It cannot be in another document and the required and prescribed terms must all be grouped together in one place (without being dispersed).This is the prescribed form.

 

Peter

 

Thank you Peter :)

 

Milly XX

CAPITAL ONE (O/H!): Won £1864.63 including contractual :D

GE MONEY: WON £266.00

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Gazza112 found this whilst wandering the web,

 

The Payment Services Regulations 2009 and the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Comes into force in November 2009 :confused:

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I would post it on the relevent forum egg, mbna cap 1 etc you will get better exposure and the experience of people dealing more specifically with your lender

 

cds

 

Cheers

 

I din't know the requirments were different for different lenders

Its an egg i will have a look over there.

 

Simon

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Hi

 

In regards to signatures and the four corner rule, could you kindly have a look at my thread and decide if I have a case of an unenforceable agreement? What would I need to say to the creditor when writing to challenge this?

 

Many thanks in advance

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/abbey-bank/194260-abbey-loan-unenforceable-agreement.html

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Hi I received a letter back from Professor macleod today. He is in retirement now and is happy to help me with any queries as to any other questions I have regarding this issue, which is extremely kind of him as it is without any cost to myself.:)

 

 

FIRSTLY, please read the letter properly as you will see it does state that my query is in RELATION to the 2002 edition, even though it is headed 2006 ed. He also refers to Goode para in CONSUMER LAW etc, I DO NOT have access to this so you guys who do could look at that an d explain what he means????

He also provided an out of date (due to 2006 amendemnt of CCA 19740 CCA agreement to show me an example of what he means - prescribed terms on the front and embodying terms and conditions on the back.

 

Now I actually (and please do not shoot me down just yet) agree with the logic that the PRESCRIBED TERMS as shown SHOULD be on the FRONT of the document as these are the MAIN terms .

 

I understand on this agreement that the signature box is on the front and yes I agree with all you peeps on here now that the signature box in pre2005 agreements could anywhere as the agreement regs do NOT specify where this box should appear exactly on the agreemnt - HOWEVER I TRULY believe that the PRESCRIBED TERMS being that important that I think what the Professor is trying to get at is that they SHOULD NOT be on the reverse of a load of non important gobbedly gook on the front as SOME CREDITORS are trying to pull off as in my case with BANK OF SCOTLAND.

 

 

In this scenario why would the PESCRIBED TERMS of the agreement be on the reverse as they are the important bits compared to lets say CREDIT CARE and DATA PROTECTION info being on the front - to go further why would the PRESCRIBED TERMS be in another document?

 

 

So here is the letter below and you guys can debate on it.PROFESSORMACLEOD1.jpg

CAPITAL ONE (O/H!): Won £1864.63 including contractual :D

GE MONEY: WON £266.00

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Thanks Milly for posting this. I hope no-one shoots the messenger! :)

 

How nice of the Prof. to respond.

 

I don't have a copy of Goode either so have to wait for the legal guys to elaborate..

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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Hi Milly, doesn't it state though that the 2004 regs determine that the prescribed terms must be together as a whole, which is basically what Peter was saying, as these came into effect, I believe in 2005. Magda

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i agree , minimal breach but a breach all the same,i seem to remember the Xerox and Hepple case resulted in the amount being reduced from 5k to 500 but i cant remember for the life of me what the facts of the case was, i will have to jump on lexis and have a look

 

trouble is with much of this work, the cases are largley unreported as they are often settled on the steps of the court without publicity

 

:eek::eek::eek:

 

I don't remember agreeing to that!!

 

:D

Time flies like an arrow...

Fruit flies like a banana.

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Hi

 

Can somebody do me a big favour.

 

Can you work out the interest out on 9.5% APR on £15000 over 84 months.

 

Cheers

HAK

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HAK - my calculator makes it £5,342.55 but it's not always 100% accurate so use with caution

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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FG

Thankyou so much for that.

 

Looks like RBS are going to be paying me some serious cash back.

 

Can you tell me how to calculate it as I am going in bank tomoorw

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tho these arguements benifit like minded people ,perhaps an POINT OF LAW DISCUSION THREAD BE PROVIDED and hopefully the much learned good people can help solve the problems for those in need but otherwise informative threads my biggest problem is memory loss so i absorb only parts of problems ,it is becoming a curse ...

anyway just thought i would say my peace

patrickq1

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I use an online calculator ('cos I'm hopeless with excel & stuff) which is why it's accuracy is not always 100% I think. If you are going to challenge the bank suggest you get a second opinion first.

Any knowledge I possess or advice I proffer is based solely on my experiences in the University of Life. Please make your own assessment of legality, risks & costs before taking any action.

 

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I use an online calculator ('cos I'm hopeless with excel & stuff) which is why it's accuracy is not always 100% I think. If you are going to challenge the bank suggest you get a second opinion first.

 

Thanks FG....

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