Lolu123 Problem with Gym Membership & CRS

[lolu123]

Hi,

I have a situation with CRS as well!

I have joined my local GYM in September 2010, but after going for 4 days I had injury in my knees I had difficulties to walk for 3 weeks so badly that I have not thinking to go back to Gym ever again. But of course my problems just started there.

I talked with Gym staff about my situation and because I didn't sign a paper agreement I thought it is enough to contact the Gym, that said that is all fine and my membership is canceled . But after few months i got letetr from CRS asking me to pay £865 in total for my 12 months contract plus late payments. My monthly payment was £25 and as I later found out + £50 for late payment. I have no idea about such a charges. and after reading through this web I took advise to fight back, wrote a letter saying all that happened and that i want to see a hard copy of my contract.

They replay to me after 4 months saying that hard copy do not exist as I joined Gym online and agreed to the terms and conditions(which i did not see). Now they asking for £445 to pay. and they telling me that it is on the website I can check t&c, they send me injury form to fill in.

After this I wrote them back saying I do not agree to pay £445 for 4 days use of the gym, and that I looked at the website and there is no t&c, and i asked to explain me how £445 adds up, and that it will take me some time to fill injury form as i have to go back to doctor.

Just got last letter now with copy of t&c, there it says that now it is £25 for late payment, and there is no t&c on the website because The Gym is on the state of reorganization, and they asking me to pay in next 10 days and etc.

I will be going to see a doctor in 2 weeks to see if they can fill the form. Just wanted to ask what else i could do to cut the price they asking to minimum , as like everyone on the website, i was misled by gym and by CRS all their paper work and letters looks the same as anyone else. Any advise would be very welcome!!! Thank you:!:

[slick132]

Hi Lolu and welcome to CAG

 

I've moved your post and started a new thread for you to use from now on.

 

Some gyms have an on-line sign up system. But for this to be valid and enforceable, you would have to have ticked a box yourself after your info was entered.

 

We have heard of gyms using your data and card details to sign you up on their system without you actually being aware of this.

 

If you signed no agreement and did not join on their on-line system, you should stand your ground and not let them intimidate you into paying.

 

What is the minimum contract period according to them. Is it one year, or more.

 

Their admin or penalty charges are not enforceable either.

 

Come back with some answers for us.

 

Edited July 25, 2011 by slick132
typo

[lolu123]

thank you slick132, the problem is that i did sign up online myself , i was willing to use the gym for a year, but i didn't thought that I'll have the injury on the first week . The contract is for a year. As I mentioned before they didn't have t&c on their online sign up, and i got a shock then i saw the charges on top of my monthly fees, I hope i can stick them up with paper work from the doctors, i'll see how it goes, just not sure what should i write to them for time being?

[slick132]

Hi Lolu,

 

You need to check their T&C's and see what is said about cancelling due to illness or injury.

 

Come back and confirm what you find about this.

 

Do you recall exactly what the staff said to you when you explained why you had to cancel so soon. Please confirm if they said anything about giving a month's notice, cancellation fees, etc.

 

Don't worry about the penalty or admin fees - these are quite simply NOT enforceable.

 

[lolu123]

hmm... they don't mention illnesses in the T&C's at all, should I ask them to explain how the £445 adds up ?

Staff just told me that it's all fine as it been just few days they will take one months pay and stop the contract, but clearly it didn't happened.

[slick132]

Hi Lolu,

 

If their T&C's do not specifically address the issue of cancellation due to illness or injury, I'd suggest the T&C's are not very comprehensive. It may therefore be down to opinion as to what one thinks is fair and reasonable.

 

I wouldn't bother asking how they arrive at their figure of £445 - I think this is irrelevant.

 

Please confirm exactly what payments you actually made, and when.

 

Then we can help you write to them as necessary.

 

[slick132]

Hi Lolu,

 

Any update on this please.

 

[lolu123]

further to your letter of 30th august 2011, we wish to confirm that the evidence you have provided is sufficient to support your request for cancellation on medical grounds.

As previously advised , cancellation cannot be backdated, and is therefore effective from the date that sufficient evidence is received (2nd September 2011). At the time only one payment of your original agreement was yet to become due (14th September 2011) and as such £25.00 membership fees were removed from your balance, and a further £9.00 of our membership fees as proportionate reduction.

You remain liable, however, for the remaining balance of £408.00

 

So so mad and angry....

After all they slow down the process so they can push it to the end of my contract, and know they saying that they can not back date it .. I was able to use gym for few days.. never possibly be able to come back, cannot even run with my child. Still going to physiotherapy as the exercise were put together wrongly for me back at he gym last year. Not sure what to do know! PLS PLS PLS HELP!

[slick132]

Hi Lolu,

 

I want to check up on something and will come back to you later.

 

[slick132]

Hi Lolu,

 

Can you please confirm how much you have paid so far to the gym.

 

Please write to CRS as follows, adding in any missing dates and correcting anything that I have said which is wrong :-

 

Dear sir or madam,

 

I joined the xxxx gym in September 2010 and suffered a serious injury just 4 days later.

 

I was only able to walk again some 3 weeks later and visited the gym to tell them I had to cancel my membership due to the injury. The gym staff acknowledged that I was injured and said they would cancel my membership.

 

Since then, I have been harassed by you for payments in varying sums, none of which make any sense. For instance, the total amount I was ever due to pay for a whole year is £25 x 12 = £300. You have demanded payments of £865 and £445 and, more recently, £408.

 

In case you are trying to make me pay any admin or penalty fees, these are not contractually enforceable.

 

Furthermore, I am not aware that I have ever entered into any contract with CRS.

 

If you believe I have, please send me a contract bearing my signature which includes all Terms and Conditions. If you believe I entered into any contract with you online, please produce evidence of this.

 

Otherwise, I am advised to inform you that I owe you nothing.

 

If you are unable to produce evidence documenting that I entered into a contract with you, DO NOT contact me further.

 

It is, of course, your prerogative to issue court proceedings against me. If you do so, they will be vigorously defended.

 

I will rely upon the High Court Order made against Ashbourne Management Services Ltd in August 2011 in which Mr Justice Kitchin makes clear why AMSL (and other gym management companies) cannot demands monies without fair and enforceable contracts.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

See how they respond.

 

[lolu123]

Thank you Slick132! I have paid nothing to them. I 'll let you know what they will say next.

[lolu123]

Hello again,

 

I got 2 full A4 pages replay back to my last letter send to them! Not sure where to start. Just will mention few things.

 

First, to statement :'you demanded payment of £865 and £445 and, more recently £408' their answer to this :' We whole refute your allegation that we have requested £865.00 from you in regards to this matter, and request you justify this statement as to when, and by what method this was communicates to you. We can however, supply a breakdown of the other two balances. We initially contacted you for payment of &445.00 consisting of: 11 x £25.00 unpaid membership fees = £275.00 2x £25.00 administration charges( applied in line with item 7 of the terms of your agreement) =£50.00 £117.00 collection fees ( applied t 30% plus VAT in line with Item 9 of the terms of your agreement) Just little reminder.. first letter I received from them was the £865, it is when after my first letter to them it was reduced in nearly half and now they talking that they don't know anything about it and I have not see terms and condition till they actually send me a copy. New balance of £408.00 consist they say:' 10 x £25.00 unpaid membership fees =£250, 2x £25.00 administration charges =£50.00, £108.00 collection fees.

 

Follows:

'You have stated ' In case you are trying to make me pay any admin or penalty fees, these are not contractually enforceable.' We must advise that penalty fees are not contractually enforceable, but OFT guidelines, government legislation, all of the courts we have visited and many years of experience tell us that our administration charges are completely legitimate and enforceable.'

 

Any way it is on and on of explanation ...

 

I thinking to pay now because it doesn't feel it is gonna go to any good end. It looks like this company knows how to play with people around, and they know what they doing. My advise not to pay first amount they tell you as you can over pay a lot.

 

[slick132]

Hi Lolu,

 

If you decide to pay, that is, of course, your prerogative. However, it will send the message that they can bully and threaten and then get what they want. If you want to beat these people and stop them taking away YOUR money, you have to stand up for yourself.

 

We are happy to help you in doing this but you have to be determined and patient.

 

The recent High Court ruling is a powerful weapon to use in arguments with gyms and their admin companies. It is there for YOU to use in cases such as yours.

 

Mr Justice Kitchin made it clear that you can cancel a contract by contacting the gym in person or by phone. If you do this in circumstances such as yours where an injury has been sustained, you should be able to break the contract and pay only a modest sum in compensation - not the entire years fees.

 

CRS are wrong about their admin fees. They are not enforceable for various reasons.

 

Also, you joined the GYM, not CRS. The gym said they accepted your cancellation and that should have been the end of it. Although CRS want you to believe they have the right to demand money, that may not be the case at all.

 

So, you need to think this through. Do you want to :-

 

1. Pay them over £400 in gym fees, admin fees and collection fees.

 

or

 

2. Fight these bullies with our help and keep your money.

 

[lolu123]

Hi Slick123,

 

Thank you for your support.

 

I don't know what to replay to them anymore.

 

They claim that Gym don't know anything about me asking to cancel my membership year ago.

 

I have no prove on this. The problem is that I gave my original paperwork to the Gym when I had injuries and so they claim I haven't done anything about the situation and that they can back date it my injuries. I clearly could went back to the doctor in march but they didn't get back to me for few months so all situation got delayed to the end.

 

arrhh... what else can I do?

 

Thanks

[slick132]

Hi Lolu,

 

We can help you with how to reply to CRS if you want to fight them.

 

Please confirm which gym you joined.

 

[rdm2006]

Sorry to confuse matters but isn't signing up online covered by the "distance selling directive" they have to allow you so many days to cancel (a cooling off period) etc.

 

Ask for a copy of your online application - they should still be able to provide this. How many days between this and your cancellation?

 

This may help OFT guidelines for businesses

 

After a quick look it would appear that they have to send you something in writing (which includes an email) advising you of your right to cancel if they have not it looks like the conclusion of the sale does not take place until 3 months later - then you have 7 days after the conclusion of sale to cancel (giving you 3 months and 7 days total) see section 3.22

 

 

Remember that was just a quick look so I could be wrong, someone may be along later to correct me lol

Edited October 19, 2011 by rdm2006

[lolu123]

Slick 132, I joined Flex Lifestyles Gym.

 

rdm2006, They saying they can provide online application because it is not possible. I went to talk with them within a week after my injury.

 

I'll have a look at OFT.

 

Thanks

[rdm2006]

Slick 132, I joined Flex Lifestyles Gym.

 

rdm2006, They saying they can provide online application because it is not possible. I went to talk with them within a week after my injury.

 

I'll have a look at OFT.

 

Thanks

 

Do not accept this - I have worked in a place where people can make online applications and there was always some kind of printout or report produced to show what had been done (otherwise - how do they know how many people join that way) remember it is their duty top prove that you applied whatever medium was used.

 

Personally, I think that if they told that to a judge he would laugh at them and tell them to amend their system to keep proper records.

 

 

Did they send you confirmation and advise you of your right to cancel?

 

if not report them to OFT and trading standards via the direct gov website

Edited October 19, 2011 by rdm2006

[lolu123]

They didn't send me anything just after few months I got letter from CRS asking for money.

[rdm2006]

They didn't send me anything just after few months I got letter from CRS asking for money.

 

In that case you should have 3 months before the transaction is concluded then a further 7 days as cancellation period.

 

That is according to the distance selling directive. send the dca that info and state until this is dealt with the account is in dispute and should be returned to the originator..

[lolu123]

hmmm... so what should I write to them now?

Slick132 any ideas?

 

Because I don't really know what to tell them any more. Should I ask for my contract agreement again?

 

[slick132]

Hi Lolu,

 

Before I answer you, I want to ask RDM, would the Distance Selling Regs apply if the application to join was done on the gym's premises on their computer system.

 

This appears to be a common method of peeps signing up these days.

 

[rdm2006]

Hi Lolu,

 

Before I answer you, I want to ask RDM, would the Distance Selling Regs apply if the application to join was done on the gym's premises on their computer system.

 

This appears to be a common method of peeps signing up these days.

 

 

Sorry not been on the site for a couple of days.

 

The DSD does not cover in store purchases, however, if someone were to use the gyms own computer systems to make an online application then it is up to the gym to prove that it was done in store (so to speak), How are they going to do that when they say they dont keep records of online applications........?

 

Surely if someone was actually in the gym then they would join with the assistant, it would not make sense to make an online application from within the gym's premises

 

That is my point of view - I am no expert on the DSD

[slick132]

Hi Lolu,

 

Can you just confirm if you used the gym's own system to sign up for membership, at the gym.

 

Or did you sign up from home or somewhere else, away from the gym.

 

Were you shown any Terms and Conditions at the time or were these sent out to you later.

 

You have every chance of arguing against the demands they are making and I'll draft a letter for you to send back to CRS and/or the gym.

 

Edited October 23, 2011 by slick132

[lolu123]

Hi, I did used my computer at home, I have not see the terms & conditions till CRS send me a copy and told me that on the gym's website they have the terms and conditions, then I checked it it was nothing on still and they explained that the gym is changing ownerships or something like that so for this reason t&m is not available. Thank you very much !