Loading / unloading as a continuous process?

[princess_tiswas]

nt

[lookinforinfo]

The clue is in the word "continuous". If you are loadind or unloading a vehicle

entailing perhaps several trips between the vehicle and the shop then I guess the

onus is on you to prove that each journey takes more than 5 minutes. Or one of

the loads necessitated that length of time because of its weight, awkward size

or obstacles in the way. Can you show that you were actually delivering or

collecting items at the time?

 

In London just recently there have been instances of those manning cameras in

cpz areas ticketing people who in their opinion, were shopping rather than

collecting from a business. The concession is for deliveries not for people

shopping since that does not constitute a continuous act. Sio their criteria is

that if you go into a shop and take more than 4 or 5 minutes to reappear, the

likelihood is that you were shopping rather than collecting.

 

Big brother really is watching you these days.

[Recycler]

one of the best resources for Loading & Unloading issues is the Jane Packer Flowers PATAS key case - which explains all the ins & outs Jane Packer Flowers -v- Westminster City Council

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[amandafairman]

Yopu do need to be seen continuously loading, thats at least once every 5 minutes or you can get a PCN, you will not win if you were not seen loading within a 5 minute period

[patdavies]

Yopu do need to be seen continuously loading, thats at least once every 5 minutes or you can get a PCN, you will not win if you were not seen loading within a 5 minute period

 

Sorry Amanda, but that is not true. Read the judgements referred above. This is set at such a level in the legal system as to form binding precedent.

 

It overrules anything a PA or local council may tell you.

[amandafairman]

I worked in the job for 13 years in London as parking managament, and I was a trainer for PCFL, having trainer many PAs for different London Boroughs. I was Parking Attendant for many many years myself too. This is the way PAs are trained and work everywhere I'm afraid, continuous loading is to be seen once every 5 minutes.

[demon_x_slash]

Then they appear to need some re-training.

[gwc1000]

I worked in the job for 13 years in London as parking managament, and I was a trainer for PCFL, having trainer many PAs for different London Boroughs. I was Parking Attendant for many many years myself too. This is the way PAs are trained and work everywhere I'm afraid, continuous loading is to be seen once every 5 minutes.

 

Proof that the people who enforce the rules don't know the rules. I succesfully defended a ticket whilst loading and the van was observed for seven minutes with no activity.

[demon_x_slash]

Thanks for posting your experience though, amanda - it is good to know how things operate from the inside.

[Twistedsista]

I am currently in a similar dispute as princess tiswas with Lambeth Council who ticketed me because no activity was observed in 2 minutes. I was collecting a rotary airer from a nearby store and the whole process was 7 minutes. I thought I was ok because the notice says maxmimum time allowed 20 minutes. Is 5 minutes of continuous loading the rule of thumb then?

[demon_x_slash]

No, as explained by Patdavies and the attached .pdf file above. Appeal.

[amandafairman]

Continuous loading means that to be classed as continuous, the person has to be seen carrying from the car to the nearest drop off point of the place you are delivering to, once every five minutes, so if you are delivering to the 5th floor of a building for example and that will take you 8 minutes to do, you are only entitled to deliver to the entrance of that building and back to the car again, which you should be able to do within a 5 minutes period, once you have dropped of at the building, you must then move the car, legally park and pay, then return to the building to finish your delivery. I know this is impractical and ridiculous, but that is the definition in accordance with the Road Traffic Act I'm afraid and that is the rules that Parking Attendants go by. A lot of people make the mistake of parking on yellow lines when loading restrictions are in place (kerb blips and white time plate beside), no one is permitted to load here during the restrictions.

 

The maximum of 20 minutes means 'to be seen at least once every five minutes up to a maximum of twenty minutes'.

 

As for the person who wrote:

"Proof that the people who enforce the rules don't know the rules. I succesfully defended a ticket whilst loading and the van was observed for seven minutes with no activity".

You were lucky to get a reasonable admin assistant reading your letter, I'm sure she compasionately took into account your mitigating circumstances, not the norm, lucky you, usually they would push to the adjudication process.

 

The rules are the rules: there are lots of rules that motorists don't even know exist and would be shocked to know, so I'm afraid 'you' are the one who doesn't know the rules.

 

Twistedsista

A maximum of 20 minutes, means you must be seen at least once evry 5 minutes up to a maximum of 20 minutes.

[demon_x_slash]

Amanda, please read the .pdf file that Recycler posted above concerning judgements (i.e., cases that have actually been through court at a high enough level to set a precedent) on continuous loading/unloading. Your information may be what you have been told by your employer; sadly, it is often the case that employees are misdirected and even lied to for ease of operations.

[gwc1000]

Hi, amandafairman I can assure you no admin assistant looked kindly on any mitigating circumstances and the Council refused to back down until it went to the adjudicator and then they chose not to proceed.

[lamma]

try this link http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/LOADADJ.pdf and check the contents that describe sprake v tester although the fact that the vehicle in question was not a goods vehicle was not of itself fatal. “It means a loading or unloading for some commercial purpose, and I think there is a reason why it is not limited to goods vehicles. I can understand a private motor-car coming along with a load of things inside it; it might be a piece or two of furniture, it might be half a dozen pictures to be reframed or cleaned, I would not even exclude a heavy laundry basket. There may be many cases in which the motor-car would be used for something which it would not be reasonable for anybody to carry in his hand; and therefore it might be said persons putting such things into or out of the car were loading or unloading within the terms of this order.”

[Guest Ting]

if you are delivering to the 5th floor of a building for example and that will take you 8 minutes to do, you are only entitled to deliver to the entrance of that building and back to the car again, which you should be able to do within a 5 minutes period, once you have dropped of at the building, you must then move the car, legally park and pay, then return to the building to finish your delivery. I know this is impractical and ridiculous, but that is the definition in accordance with the Road Traffic Act I'm afraid and that is the rules that Parking Attendants go by.

The maximum of 20 minutes means 'to be seen at least once every five minutes up to a maximum of twenty minutes'.

 

As for the person who wrote:

"Proof that the people who enforce the rules don't know the rules. ".

The rules are the rules: there are lots of rules that motorists don't even know exist and would be shocked to know, so I'm afraid 'you' are the one who doesn't know the rules.

 

Got a link to those ‘Rules’ ?

As you admit responsibility for training a number of people who now adversely affect peoples’ lives on a daily basis – you are exactly the kind of person and culture I am fighting via my interest in these matters. I seriously believe you should be brought to account for this.

Exactly what gives you the right to ignore the DfT Guidance on the matter and to impose your interpretation on others

Edited August 31, 2008 by Ting
browser probs

[lamma]

"It must be stressed that the lack of any delivery /unloading activity at the vehicle does NOT automatically mean that delivery/unloading is not taking place - see above. Nor is it correct to follow a policy that “it was not seen therefore it could not have happened”. Local Authorities often state that “loading or unloading must be continuous” implying that there must be an uninterrupted movement of the goods to or from the vehicle for the exemption to apply. I can find no authority in these terms for this proposition - indeed in Macleod v 9 Wojkowska it was put forward in argument by the Crown and rejected by the decision of the court. It is ,of course correct to say that the exemption only applies whilst the unloading/delivery is taking place but as I have set out above these words cover rather more than simply moving the goods. It is of course up to Local authorities whether they lay down a particular observation period for their Attendants before issuing a PCN. However, for my own part I would have thought that in the case of any commercial vehicle or other vehicle showing signs of possible delivery/unloading activity a zero observation period would inevitably lead to unnecessary correspondence and appeals. Whereas an observation period of, say, 5 or even 10 minutes in these cases would in some cases save the issue of a PCN at all and in the remainder the Local authority would be entitled to take a stricter line when considering explanations given for longer absences - always bearing in mind that each case must be considered on its own merits." From jane packer flowers - compulsory reading in my view.

[green_and_mean]

Why are we discussing a two year old thread??

 

But since we are....

 

Continuous loading

Does not mean that you have to be unloading at the vehicle for the entire time parked, as some Councils imply. What it means is that you must be parked for the purpose of loading for the entire duration of stay. You cannot as many builders try pop back to unload another 'tool' everytime a PA arrives, unload a flat pack piece of furniture then remain parked whilst you assemble it for the customer or take a ten minute tea break whilst unloading etc etc. The vehicle cannot be parked any longer than it takes to unload/load and complete paperwork.