So I have my ET hearing date...

[Warbeard]

Hello

 

This is my first post here. I was directed here by another member, unfortunately I do not know thier username but if they show up they will be able to support the stuff I'm going to talk about.

 

I was summarily dismissed from employment on the 22nd March 2011 for three counts of gross misconduct. These were;

-Failing to obey a reasonable management instruction: breaching uniform policy.

-Failing to obey a reasonable management instruction: not leaving my shift halfway through and the building due to the breach of uniform policy.

-Allegedly threatening the general manager's 6 year old daughter.

 

I will happily provide the dismissal letter and also my appeal letter (which runs to over 7000 words) to anyone interested, just give me your email. I will try and be as short as possible with this as I can, it's a long winded one.

 

It all started in July 2010, when the new general manager sacked a friend of mine. I wrote a letter of complaint to head office about it as procedure had not been followed, but because my friend had been employed for under 1 year there was nothing legally she could do.

 

Not long after this I was suspended for allegedly letting this same friend into the building (which I didn't) and I was suspended for a whole month. They listed the offence as gross misconduct but instead of getting sacked they gave me a final written warning. Which turned up over 2 months later, after I kept asking them for it, so I could appeal it.

 

They 'lost' my appeal email, sending it to the wrong person, so in feb 2011 the final written warning was removed from my record.

 

In nov 2010 I was wearing extra layers on top of my uniform, as it was VERY cold. The place has an ongoing chronic problem with temperature every summer and winter. Part of the extra clothing was a wooly hat I wore, as there is cold air con being blown directly on to our heads all the time. The same general manager came to me and told me that I must remove the hat or go home and forfeit pay for the rest of the day. I tried to discuss it reasonably until she eventually turned it into 'leave or I will call the police'. I left the shift halfway through and lost the rest of that days pay. I raised a grievance and a grievance appeal to this, all were dismissed.

 

In jan 2011 again the temperature was very cold and so I was wearing extra layers over my uniform, so once again the same general manager told me to remove them or be sent home. This time I stayed, as I did not want to be docked pay and I did not remove the extra layers. I continued to work so she called the police. The police arrived and escorted me out of the building. I was then suspended until mar 2011 when I was sacked.

 

On the same day I was removed from the building, the general manager told staff that I had threatened her daughter. I found out the next day when staff rang me to tell me. The following day I went to the police station to see if I could do anything, but the police seemed to have no idea what I was talking about in terms of the threat.

 

Apparantly there was a witness to this alleged threat, but this witness has given two statements that contradict each other, and the witness cannot remember WHEN the threat was supposed to have happened. When I first heard of the allegation I thought that they were saying I made the threat that day, but apparantly it occured weeks prior. But no-one knows when.

 

I then entered into a very long email debate with the person dealing with my hearing, asking for all sorts of information as many things had been stated including the general manager putting in a statement that the police placed her under police protection 'due to my nature', yet the police have not once contacted me to question me about ANYTHING. Rather, I have gone to them for information.

 

One additional thing that happened was that in sept 2010 I was sent a letter from my regional manager with a threatening tone about legal action that could be taken against me about a facebook page that wasn't mine. It even included information that they had gone to the police and the matter had been given the crime referance number '176', if you can believe that.

 

I'm just wondering how far this will go, as I'm having difficulty getting legal help. I've had one legal firm turn my case down already because my wages were too low for them to bother, and it seems to be the time of year where it is diffcult to get a speedy response.

 

Any questions fire away.

 

Cheers

 

Ali

[LKM1982]

pm me and im more than willing to have a look and try and help if possible

[madari]

Feel free to PM me and i will look into your case tomorrow [Monday]

[Warbeard]

It's probably worth adding that all the staff wear extra non uniform layers when it's cold. None of them have been disciplined, let alone sacked. Also, my employment record was clean.

[Sidewinder]

They called the Police to escort you from the premises? And then again to complain about something on Facebook?

 

Un-be-lievable

 

I bet the local Plod are absolutely delighted....

[Warbeard]

They called the police over a facebook account back in August/September 2010. It slagged off the same general manager that has been causing all the problems. Thing is, she is hated by just about everyone. She has made so many enemies with the way she sacks people and treats people that figuring out who did it would be like a where's wally contest. Funnily enough the company absolutely love her and protect her to the hilt.

 

The police never contacted me over it, and it can't be that hard to trace ips of stuff on facebook, so they (my former employers) just send me a letter trying to threaten me and convince me that the police are coming to get me AND that they are going to take me to court for something I had no control over. But putting in the letter 'This crime has been given the crime reference number 176' is just ridiculous. I have no doubt they called the cops over it, but it is obvious the cops had no interest in pursueing me over it.

 

They then called the police on the 29th Jan 2011 to get me removed from my work, while I was on shift. I asked the police what crime had been commited and why they were there, they responded that they were there to prevent a breach of the peace and to help remove a trespasser. I asked how there would be a breach of peace when I am currently working a rota'd and contracted shift in my place of work, they said that was not what they were told. The manager told them I wasn't getting paid therefore I wasn't on shift and they didn't want me in the building therefore I was trespassing.

 

Part of this whole process against me has been my former employers using the weight of police involvement against me. However, when I heard of an allegation against me about a supposed threat to a young child whilst on the premises of my work, I requested multiple times that they involve the police to investigate. The place I used to work has a creche and claims to be ofsted regulated, yet they refused to involve the police, claiming it was a personal matter for the manager. The manager has put in statements that the police ARE involved and that they are investigating the matter, yet once again I have not been questioned over the matter. I have requested proof of this involvement, like incident numbers, none of this information has been forthcoming.

 

Just to put this into an even more unbalanced light, there was a serious theft from the safe in September 2010 that was into the thousands, about 3 or 4 days later it happened again. As far as I'm aware, the police were not involved. The matter was investigated only internally. The fact that there were two thefts from the safe in a week means that there would be very few suspects, as it was done using keys. From what I understand, only 1 person would have been in the postition to do this. This person happens to be connected to a manager that I witnessed forge health and safety documents whom I reported in August 2010, and THAT manager is in very tight with the general manager. Quite a picture it paints.

[withallmyhart]

It sound like your week shut of that place, for the management its not what you know its who your stabbing in the back that counts.

I would suggest you go to the citizens advice, they are fantastic at helping you Gerry everything together to take the case to the employment tribunals yourself, if you have the evidence, reports, letters and emails it sounds like you should have then take it to the tribunals your self, its really not all that scary, I represented my partner a few years ago and it was fine, we won and the victory felt so much better because I knew they were using some hot shot solicitor, hahaha.

Just make sure you can evidence everything you bring up as evidence, see if there is pictures of others wearing extra garments, plus look up the legal lower temp limit your allowed to work in without them having to provide these extra layers as thermal layers, you could get them on health and safety to boot.

Good luck.

[Warbeard]

Already covered the health and safety angle with them, they are doing their best to ignore it and squirm out from it. I can provide a large amount of witnesses to the temperature and to people wearing extra layers, but the staff themselves are too scared of losing their jobs (like me) to tell the truth, so they lie to keep themselves safe. The witnesses I can provide however are members and not staff, so they can't be sat on.

 

I've got an appointment with the CAB but it's not for weeks yet. I'm also trying to get the community law centre to help, it just seems to be a difficult time of year to get speedy response.

[withallmyhart]

Be patient they are busy because they are good, you get some time to take your revenge and its a dish best served cold with plenty of planning, you have several angles you can get them over, if you have no proof of the temp and they don't measure it then you need to report them to them to the health and safely, they will pay a visit to test, this can then be your evidence so there is no need to get employees involved. I'm no solicitor but I'm sure they will agree that you have a very strong case, its hard when you have a bee in your bonnet and it needs letting lose but be patient the CAB will be a massive help, they wont be able to represent you but they will prep you to do it your self and by the way you come across on here you sound very capable, and it means you can say your points the way you mean them instead of the solicitor perhaps mixing things up a little, which is sometimes heard of (sorry to any solicitors on here)

Have you had much back from solicitors on here?

Edited April 18, 2011 by withallmyhart

[Warbeard]

Not had any legal feedback from here yet, early days though. Went to the community law centre and spoke to acas today, I'm already doing everything I'm supposed to, just need to get my appeal meeting done.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but is there a way to get legal people to look at this thread?

[Sidewinder]

You should be aware that this is not a LEGAL advice service, but a Consumer Advice website where people share experiences. Some people have legal experience, but the vast majority are those who have been through a variety of situations themselves and may be able to give pointers. We are a mix of volunteers, including some of us who have a variety of knowledge in certain areas, including employment dispute and resolution.

 

Sadly, if you want legal advice, then you need a solicitor. For what it is worth, I believe that the nature of your particular case is such that only a legal professional would be able to unravel the various parts into some sort of order. On the face of what you have said, there would appear to have been a vendetta against you, maybe due to having helped a colleague by raising the issue with head Office, maybe due to their failed attempt at disciplinary action - difficult to say, but the fact is that you seem to have had your card marked.

 

Insofar as you have said about the reasons for dismissal, IMO you made a mistake in refusing to remove the woolly hat when asked, and in refusing to obey a reasonable instruction this has given the employer ammunition. IT may have been wiser to comply with the request and to then deal with the issue of the cold in a more appropriate way. You then, despite having already been disciplined (rightly or wrongly) repeated the act of 'insubordination' very shortly afterwards, and this has now been listed as a primary reason for dismissal which could fatally flaw any attempt to go for an Unfair Dismissal case. If you were to take this to a Tribunal, they would not be at all interested in what led to the event, merely that dismissal was within the range of reasonable responses open to the employer. Employment Tribunals do not like to interfere with the way in which an employer runs their business, so they would establish that you were asked to remove the non-uniform items of clothing, failed to do so until made to, and then did exactly the same on a further occasion which led to your dismissal. Would they then decide that the employer's response in dismissing you was fair and reasonable? Almost certainly, and that then makes any further argument over the other reasons given for dismissal completely irrelevant.

[elpulpo]

Aye, I agree.

[madari]

Sorry to say, but i am with Sidewinder on this.

[elpulpo]

I agree with that too, Madari.

[Warbeard]

Wow. Really?

 

I would point out that I was not disciplined the first time there was an incident with my wearing extra layers, I was merely sent home without pay. I was the one who raised a grievance over that matter, as no other staff has been treated in this way yet all staff in my department wear extra non-uniform layers in winter. So when I was summarily dismissed it was a 'first offense' as it were, with my employee record being clean at the time.

 

The reason I refused to remove the clothing is because the temperature was extremely cold and uncomfortable, and we (the people in my department) have been complaining on an informal level since I've worked there (over two years) about the ongoing problem. If I were to remove the layers that kept me warm, all that would happen is that I would get even colder. They have demonstrated no attempt at all to resolve the issue for us.

 

Do I not have the right to protect my own health and safety at work? I have refuted that the instructions were reasonable the entire time. Surely the disciplinary procedure is not meant to be used in this way? I thought that dismissal was supposed to be seen, by reasonable people, as a last resort.

[withallmyhart]

For your manager to call the police did the conversation get very heated on your part during the final incident? Could the way you spoke with your manager be classed as gross misconduct?

Did you formally report your grievance concerning the cold and the sending home incidence, as in on paper and if so do you have or could you get copies of these?

If you have you need to check what your contact of employment states regarding the way they say they will deal with your complaints, if they have gone against what it says in your contact then you may have a claim against them for breaking their terms of the contract, not sure if this will get you any where, I know in business, contact terms can not be broken without risk of claims bring pursued. Its just a thought and I'm sure the other guys/gals on here maybe able to say if I'm barking up the wrong tree for you.

Just don't like hearing people bring treated the way you have and the corporate people getting away Scott free.

[Sidewinder]

Just don't like hearing people bring treated the way you have and the corporate people getting away Scott free.

 

Believe it or not, neither do I and I am inclined to believe that your treatment has been nothing short of disgraceful.

 

However. Regarding temperature, you have to be absolutely certain when it comes to Health & Safety. All that the relevant legislation requires is that the temperature in the workplace should be 'reasonable'. What is reasonable? This depends in part at least on the nature of the work, and many people are surprised to find that there is no legal definition of this, nor any law which says that the temperature has to be above a certain limit. All that exist are guidelines of 16 degrees or 13 degrees where the work is of a physical nature, and if you are certain that the temperature could be deemed 'unreasonable' then you should raise a formal grievance, and ask for a Risk Assessment to be carried out. If the employer failed to deal with this correctly, then a complaint could be made to the Environmental Health department, who would also expect to see a RA and what steps the employer had taken to resolve the issue which may have involved authorising additional clothing to be worn in the event of cold weather. You would then have had a degree of protection against action by the employer as a dismissal for asserting a legal right or raising a matter of Health & Safety would in most cases be automatically unfair. Unfortunately you are now not working from a position of strength.

 

Similarly, the fact that you were sent home without pay also needed to be dealt with correctly at the time, for this was effectively a suspension without pay, which is unlawful unless your contract allows it.

 

I am assuming that you have appealed against the dismissal and have been unsuccessful?

 

It might be worth sending a Subject Access Request to the employer asking for any and all details relating to your employment, including notes of disciplinary hearings and all notes and memos relating to your dismissal. It won't turn up everything, and will cost £10, but it may throw up something which might help to decide whether you have a case.

[withallmyhart]

Hi Sidewinder, if the proceedings that lead up to the 'event' were due to the unreasonable request of removing clothing that were there for health and safety reasons and Warbeard can legal prove this by the time it goes to the tribunals could the circumstance then be brought up to prove that the manager was being unreasonable?

I ask this as you seem to have given a way in which Warbeard can now prove the temp problem.

[Warbeard]

I did not act in any heated way whatsoever. I remained calm (and a little taken back) during the whole situation. I did absolutely nothing that would suggest police involvement was needed.

 

I did raise a grievance relating to the uniform and temperature before all of this happened, back in July 2010 because the staff were all complaining about it and had been since I worked there. However, we were always told the same thing, that uniform was as it is. I raised a grievance that included a complaint about the uniform being unsuitable in winter, but the grievance was dismissed in the same way the informal complaints had; the uniform is as it is. I even have an email from another member of staff to a member of management from Sept 2009 complaining of the cold, and his response and head office's response was the same; the uniform is as it is.

 

When I was sent home without pay in November 2010 I did raise a grievance about the temperature, and the treatment I recieved. The grievance was dismissed. I then appealed that, that was dismissed also. However, the appeal letter then went on to say that the uniform policy was being reviewed thanks to my information, and that extra risk assesments were being put in place to prevent this happening again. Which does not make sense, dismissing my grievance but saying 'you have a point'.

 

I don't think it is that difficult to raise the issue of unreasonable temperature in the workplace (at least I hope not), as the gov website has that thermal discomfort checklist which I can tick off quite a few boxes. I've told them this on a number of occasions.

[Warbeard]

Oh and I have sent in the appeal letter,but have yet to have the appeal meeting. The person taking the dismissal appeal meeting is the same person who is currently investigating my grievances that I raised due to the whole process being used against me, before I was dismissed. So it's a pretty safe bet that my appeal will be unsuccessful.

[Warbeard]

I have gone through one of the websites from here to contact a lawyer, they are now talking about helping me make a claim. Thing is, it's alot of money to pay. Just the ET1 form costs £800 + vat. I am not experienced in such matters, is it possible still to get no win no fee? If I do pay for a lawyer that also acculates costs per hour is there a way I can claim the money back if I win? Because my job was relatively low pay a basic award would not be massive (I don't think, I'm not sure) but because they have slandered my name it directly relates to my business, so I feel that I must fight it. I work with children, parents, teachers, you name it. Something like this is career ending.

 

Any help is really appreciated.

[LKM1982]

you would be better to file the ET1 yourself. Doesn't cost anything. It is very easy to do, and if you need any help, am sure one of us can help you. Don't see the point in you paying £800 for something you can do yourself.

[madari]

The Citizens advice bureau will help you fill out your ET1...if you ask them nicely!!!

[Warbeard]

Yeah I've got an appoinment with their employment expert in May. I'm just trying to get as much help as possible. If I submit my ET1 form on my own, would that hinder me if I required a lawyer later on?

[madari]

You can chop and change representatives at any point up until the full hearing, what the ET will not allow is for you to ask for late amendments so be carefull that nothing is left to chance when filling out your ETI

 

At the end of the day it is easier to withdraw then to try to amend a claim.