Suspension pending possible disciplinary/dismissal action

[Marieleeza]

That's very helpful thank you, I'm going to pull as much information together as possible to strengthen my case and put everything together tonight. They issued the letter on Tuesday but I didn't get it until Friday, so I will send it via a secure email system they use which they've issued several letters to me though, just to make sure I'm within the 7 day period. I'll request a read receipt also and follow it up in writing.

 

Thanks

Lauryn

Given that you have already submitted a grievance. You might be in a position to fill in the ET1 immediately. It depends on what your grievance was about. I would also mention the fact that the grievance was ignored in my appeal letter.

 

 

It takes the Tribunal office just a few days to accept a claim and notify both parties that it has been accepted.

 

I think it would be a good psychological tactic for the ET1 to arrive by next Friday. It costs the employer £2K to get a solicitor to respond on an ET3 form, so they may well cut their losses, give you your commission and a reference.

Edited August 7, 2011 by Marieleeza
typo

[stuart_coogh]

your company should acknowledge your grievance within 14 days, if they dont then you bring that up in the ET, as MarieLeeza says its a good psychological tactic for the ET1 to get filled in and sent, do you have legal insurance cover in place, if not you might be eligible for legal aid, but 1st thing is to find yourself a good solictor, i would suggest that you look at link to commercial website removed

[LaurynM]

Thank you again - I've written my appeal letter which I will send tomorrow morning, however should I or should I not state that I intend to fill in the ET1, or is it better to let this land and give them a pleasant surprise?

 

I've stated in my appeal letter over and above my obvious disagreement at being dismissed and why, that they failed to follow the correct procedure for:

 

* Not acting consistently (suspending me the same day the "anonymous" letter was received but not suspending the others named in the letter)

* Failing to give me my entitlement of three clear working days notice to attend disciplinary hearings (they gave me 2 days, 0 days, and just 1 day on 3 separate occasions)

* Breaching my privacy and confidentiality when handling the investigation (already raised in the grievance letter - submitted 13 days ago at present without any acknowledgement so far....)

* Providing me with an out of date company disciplinary policy and procedure, also containing an out of date employee assistance number, revoking my right to this confidential assistance at a time when I really did need some guidance and help

* Unreasonably delaying decisions or confirmation of those decisions by agreeing to send their decision in writing on 1st August via email, then emailing that morning asking me to come in for another meeting to discuss the outcome (no new evidence etc), then moving it to the following day when I couldn't attend, and then sending it in writing (again taking longer) when we had both agreed to send letters via a secure email system, meaning that I didnt receive the letter until 5th August, when I had been dismissed on the 2nd!

* Revoking my £1,975.27 commission without prior notification, despite agreeing to continue paying my salary and providing all other contractual benefits during my suspension, which may also be classed as an unlawful deduction of wages.

 

Some points may not be entirely strong or relevant but I have pieced together as much as possible to strengthen my case. Any last minute feedback would be fab.

 

Thanks again

Lauryn

[Marieleeza]

Thank you again - I've written my appeal letter which I will send tomorrow morning, however should I or should I not state that I intend to fill in the ET1, or is it better to let this land and give them a pleasant surprise?

 

I've stated in my appeal letter over and above my obvious disagreement at being dismissed and why, that they failed to follow the correct procedure for:

 

* Not acting consistently (suspending me the same day the "anonymous" letter was received but not suspending the others named in the letter)

* Failing to give me my entitlement of three clear working days notice to attend disciplinary hearings (they gave me 2 days, 0 days, and just 1 day on 3 separate occasions)

* Breaching my privacy and confidentiality when handling the investigation (already raised in the grievance letter - submitted 13 days ago at present without any acknowledgement so far....)

* Providing me with an out of date company disciplinary policy and procedure, also containing an out of date employee assistance number, revoking my right to this confidential assistance at a time when I really did need some guidance and help

* Unreasonably delaying decisions or confirmation of those decisions by agreeing to send their decision in writing on 1st August via email, then emailing that morning asking me to come in for another meeting to discuss the outcome (no new evidence etc), then moving it to the following day when I couldn't attend, and then sending it in writing (again taking longer) when we had both agreed to send letters via a secure email system, meaning that I didnt receive the letter until 5th August, when I had been dismissed on the 2nd!

* Revoking my £1,975.27 commission without prior notification, despite agreeing to continue paying my salary and providing all other contractual benefits during my suspension, which may also be classed as an unlawful deduction of wages.

 

Some points may not be entirely strong or relevant but I have pieced together as much as possible to strengthen my case. Any last minute feedback would be fab.

 

Thanks again

Lauryn

It looks fine to me Lauryn. I would not mention the ET1 and leave it as a surprise. I would make the Unlawful Deduction CLaim now and put the details of the whole saga on the ET1 form. You get three pages to tell the tale. I take it that you are happy to leave with a reference and your commission. Did you get notice pay and holiday pay?

[LaurynM]

It looks fine to me Lauryn. I would not mention the ET1 and leave it as a surprise. I would make the Unlawful Deduction CLaim now and put the details of the whole saga on the ET1 form. You get three pages to tell the tale. I take it that you are happy to leave with a reference and your commission. Did you get notice pay and holiday pay?

 

My letters tend to run on about so 3 pages is good. Yeah, given the stage that things are at now - plus I have actually started a new job (they wrote directly to my Team Manager for a reference who provided an accurate reference minus any information about the suspension), I would accept my commission being paid, my dismissal being revoked and letting me resign (either way I'm not going back so they don't have to worry about that), and providing references to any future employers if requested. I think thats fair, otherwise I'm more than happy to keep fighting it and take it all to an ET.

 

They dismissed me without any notice pay and I'm not sure what is happening about my holidays - my balance renewed on 1st July and I had some other hours carried over from July 10 - June 11, so they will need to look at the annual leave taken during July (authorised before I was suspended) and total up what is owed either way. I think I have enough to cover myself though, hopefully anyway!

 

Thanks

Lauryn

[Marieleeza]

My letters tend to run on about so 3 pages is good. Yeah, given the stage that things are at now - plus I have actually started a new job (they wrote directly to my Team Manager for a reference who provided an accurate reference minus any information about the suspension), I would accept my commission being paid, my dismissal being revoked and letting me resign (either way I'm not going back so they don't have to worry about that), and providing references to any future employers if requested. I think thats fair, otherwise I'm more than happy to keep fighting it and take it all to an ET.

 

They dismissed me without any notice pay and I'm not sure what is happening about my holidays - my balance renewed on 1st July and I had some other hours carried over from July 10 - June 11, so they will need to look at the annual leave taken during July (authorised before I was suspended) and total up what is owed either way. I think I have enough to cover myself though, hopefully anyway!

 

Thanks

Lauryn

I would bet that you never see the inside of the ET Lauryn. Get that online claim done for holiday pay, notice pay and commission ASAP. I think that they are likely to pay you the money rather than pay a solicitor and hang around for days at a Tribunal.

 

Pleased to hear that you are working again and that the reference was no problem.

[LaurynM]

I would bet that you never see the inside of the ET Lauryn. Get that online claim done for holiday pay, notice pay and commission ASAP. I think that they are likely to pay you the money rather than pay a solicitor and hang around for days at a Tribunal.

 

Pleased to hear that you are working again and that the reference was no problem.

 

I will complete that form tomorrow, beginning to feel a bit more positive now. I'm still absolutely devastated and sad that this has happened, but the only way forward now is to fight it and clear my name.

 

Thanks for everyone's help, especially Marieleeza

[LaurynM]

So my grievance will be heard at 5:30pm this evening and I have my appeal at 6pm, hopefully I can turn things round, but I reckon the evidence to clear me of gross misconduct (i.e. record of the call which should be on their files and also a note was in my outlook for a follow up - both which are now controlled by the company and totally outwith my control) will still not have been located, so I need to nail them on not following disciplinary procedures correctly to clear my name.

 

Also with the grievance, I don't really know what I expect to achieve but I feel strongly that my name was blackened so quickly and personal information was leaked when it should never have come to light. Plus it all helps when I file an ET1

 

Thanks

Lauryn

[Marieleeza]

So my grievance will be heard at 5:30pm this evening and I have my appeal at 6pm, hopefully I can turn things round, but I reckon the evidence to clear me of gross misconduct (i.e. record of the call which should be on their files and also a note was in my outlook for a follow up - both which are now controlled by the company and totally outwith my control) will still not have been located, so I need to nail them on not following disciplinary procedures correctly to clear my name.

 

Also with the grievance, I don't really know what I expect to achieve but I feel strongly that my name was blackened so quickly and personal information was leaked when it should never have come to light. Plus it all helps when I file an ET1

 

Thanks

Lauryn

I think it is worth fighting this Lauryn. How far away is the deadline for your ET1 ( 3 months less 1 day since the act complained of)?

[LaurynM]

I think it is worth fighting this Lauryn. How far away is the deadline for your ET1 ( 3 months less 1 day since the act complained of)?

 

I was suspended on 16th June and dismissed on 2nd August so I still have time yet.

[Marieleeza]

I was suspended on 16th June and dismissed on 2nd August so I still have time yet.

I would get the ET1 done by August 15 to avoid any out of time argument by employer. It can be assessed as 3 months less one day from the act complained of. Keep us up to date with developments.

[LaurynM]

I would get the ET1 done by August 15 to avoid any out of time argument by employer. It can be assessed as 3 months less one day from the act complained of. Keep us up to date with developments.

 

I'm going to send that tomorrow, thanks. The grievance meeting went really well tonight but the appeal meeting wasnt great, I felt as though they were trying to trip me up and make me say/agree to things that I didnt actually mean.

[Marieleeza]

I'm going to send that tomorrow, thanks. The grievance meeting went really well tonight but the appeal meeting wasnt great, I felt as though they were trying to trip me up and make me say/agree to things that I didnt actually mean.

Yes that is typical.

 

Employers tend to treat such meetings as courtroom scenarios which they are definitely not.

 

It would be good if they backed down now but they rarely show that much intelligence.

 

Hope they enjoy getting the ET1.

Edited August 29, 2011 by Marieleeza
spacing

[LaurynM]

So do I

 

The best bit yesterday was when I was asked if I had any explanation as to why my earnings near enough doubled between March and April - hmm, perhaps because I went from part time 20 hours per week with a lot of time off in March to complete my degree and hand my dissertation into Uni, and then went full time in April at 37.5 hours and did a lot of overtime. Wow!

[Marieleeza]

So do I

 

The best bit yesterday was when I was asked if I had any explanation as to why my earnings near enough doubled between March and April - hmm, perhaps because I went from part time 20 hours per week with a lot of time off in March to complete my degree and hand my dissertation into Uni, and then went full time in April at 37.5 hours and did a lot of overtime. Wow!

They sound like a right bunch of eejits so it looks good for getting your commission back.

[LaurynM]

They sound like a right bunch of eejits so it looks good for getting your commission back.

 

I know, he must have felt like an idiot when I answered that for him, they were clearly trying to allege that I was mis-claiming another 100% of my commission fraudulently, never mind the simple fact that it near enough doubled because my hours doubled! I had to laugh to myself at that.

[Marieleeza]

I know, he must have felt like an idiot when I answered that for him, they were clearly trying to allege that I was mis-claiming another 100% of my commission fraudulently, never mind the simple fact that it near enough doubled because my hours doubled! I had to laugh to myself at that.

They are really clutching at straws aren't they? I am glad that you have another job as there could not have been much of a future with such dimwits.

[LaurynM]

They are really clutching at straws aren't they? I am glad that you have another job as there could not have been much of a future with such dimwits.

 

The appeal manager must have thought he had nailed me with his 'discovery'. Funny haha! The sad thing is Marieleeza, they are a HUGE company, one of the biggest in the UK and their parent company is also huge globally. I loved working for them but sad I had to leave under such circumstances.

 

On a positive note, I have an assessment for an area manager job with a great company tomorrow, brilliant starting salary plus a company car, and a final interview for another fab company on Friday where I have made it to the final 2 for the position, so I'm very happy that my previous employer gave me the push to go and find better things. Just crossing my fingers re the grievance and appeal hearings.

 

Thanks

[LaurynM]

Bad news I'm afraid, they wrote to me today admitting a catalogue of errors but refused to overturn their decision. I feel so disheartened but still going ahead and filing ET1 papers this week - was just waiting on their final decision to take them for unfair dismissal on the basis I disagree with their actions, or if they overturned the decision this would be an admission of unfair dismissal and this would be the point I would have led with. Sadly not.

 

Key points which they have admitted (taken from their full letter):

 

While it is agreed that you were not given 3 working days notice prior to the meeting on the 26th July 2011. We believe that you had sufficient opportunity to move the meeting to another date if you required.

 

The meetings that you were requested to attend on the 1st and 2nd August were to deliver the outcome of your disciplinary. It was felt by the original panel that there was no need to offer the 3 working days notice as they wanted to deliver their outcome to you as promptly as possible so as you were not placed under any further undue stress. You had originally requested the outcome to be sent via email however given the outcome of the disciplinary it was felt inappropriate to issue an email which was why the panel requested your attendance. We did however agree that expecting you to attend a meeting with 2 hours notice was unreasonable and this will be given as feedback to the original panel.

 

While it was unfortunate that you were given a policy that obtained an out of date telephone number for the company’s EAP service, at no point did you seek to obtain the correct number. There were a number of sources that this could have been raised to, including the original panel and your line manager. (INCORRECT - THE CORRECT NUMBER WAS REQUESTED FROM THE ORIGINAL PANEL AND NOT PROVIDED)

 

With regards to the final point of your appeal letter. We believe that the original panel incorrectly blocked your **** (commission) account prior to understanding if there were any further instances of fraudulently claimed commission. It is therefore our recommendation that further investigation into the commission claimed over the months of April, May and June is instigated. Once this has taken place any balance owed to you will be released

 

The decision

 

Whilst we believe that there are lessons to be learned and that there may have been some technical errors during the disciplinary process we feel that these would not change the outcome of the original disciplinary hearing. It is therefore the panel decision to uphold the original sanction of summary dismissal on the grounds of gross misconduct.

[Marieleeza]

Bad news I'm afraid, they wrote to me today admitting a catalogue of errors but refused to overturn their decision. I feel so disheartened but still going ahead and filing ET1 papers this week - was just waiting on their final decision to take them for unfair dismissal on the basis I disagree with their actions, or if they overturned the decision this would be an admission of unfair dismissal and this would be the point I would have led with. Sadly not.

 

Key points which they have admitted (taken from their full letter):

I think it would have been unusual for them to overturn a decision on appeal, particularly when you have left already as it amounts to an admission of liability.

 

They are going for the reasonable belief defence and this is what you will have to argue against.

 

They have covered themselves or tried to on the procedural errors and seem to be promising the return of your commission.

 

You have nothing to lose by putting in the ET1 now as the threat of the tribunal might force them to back down on the dismissal and agree the wording of any future reference with you. I know that they gave you a fair reference recently, but it is in your interests to ensure that the dismissal is never mentioned to another employer based on what has been kept on file.

[LaurynM]

I never left the company, I wanted to resign but felt confident that my name would be cleared and didn't want to look guilty or as if I was hiding anything. Looking back I almost wish I had now.

 

The reference came from my line manager in the company who was also my representative throughout the investigation, the company were never directly involved and I fear that any new employers might contact the HR department of which I have no say over in relation to my reference.

 

I think the whole thing stinks! They're in charge of all the evidence to clear me, dealt with the investigation in a sloppy and incorrect manner, but refuse to give me the justice I'm entitled to. It's been 3 long months but I have nothing to lose now by going to an ET.

 

Sigh

 

Thanks

Lauryn

[Marieleeza]

I never left the company, I wanted to resign but felt confident that my name would be cleared and didn't want to look guilty or as if I was hiding anything. Looking back I almost wish I had now.

 

The reference came from my line manager in the company who was also my representative throughout the investigation, the company were never directly involved and I fear that any new employers might contact the HR department of which I have no say over in relation to my reference.

 

I think the whole thing stinks! They're in charge of all the evidence to clear me, dealt with the investigation in a sloppy and incorrect manner, but refuse to give me the justice I'm entitled to. It's been 3 long months but I have nothing to lose now by going to an ET.

 

Sigh

 

Thanks

Lauryn

They seem to be backing down over the lost commission and admitting some of the procedural errors.

 

However, as you got another job really quickly, you would not have much of a lost earnings claim against them.

 

I am hoping that you can build a case on the factual and procedural errors resulting in potential damage to your career resulting from the dismissal.

 

Hopefully lthey will agree the reference content with you in exchange for withdrawal of the ET1.

 

Unfortunately, workers being walked all over and losing their jobs after either an unfair disciplinary or grievance investigation is not really something that the ET cares much about.

 

I am in a similar positon having raised a well founded grievance. I am hoping to get satisfaction via the Tribunal but have realised that the ET is not really concerned with justice or standards but just focuses on legalities and financial compensation. The prevailing attitude seems to be "what is done is done". Can a reference be a remedy, I believe that it can.

[LaurynM]

They seem to be backing down over the lost commission and admitting some of the procedural errors.

 

However, as you got another job really quickly, you would not have much of a lost earnings claim against them.

 

I am hoping that you can build a case on the factual and procedural errors resulting in potential damage to your career resulting from the dismissal.

 

Hopefully lthey will agree the reference content with you in exchange for withdrawal of the ET1.

 

Unfortunately, workers being walked all over and losing their jobs after either an unfair disciplinary or grievance investigation is not really something that the ET cares much about.

 

I am in a similar positon having raised a well founded grievance. I am hoping to get satisfaction via the Tribunal but have realised that the ET is not really concerned with justice or standards but just focuses on legalities and financial compensation. The prevailing attitude seems to be "what is done is done". Can a reference be a remedy, I believe that it can.

 

The part which upsets me the most is that I had hoped to go into a career in financial crime following my graduation, i.e. fraud or money laundering, and now I have a dismissal from an FSA regulated company for fraud/gross misconduct! It really gets me down because it could affect my whole future and that hurts. The loss of earnings isnt the end of the world but my future is now potentially ruined and I dont really know what else to do to be honest.

 

Sorry to hear about your situation, it infuriates me how disgustingly some employers treat their staff.