Ingeus

[antone]

I had this issue,

 

They were sending letters to my old address I think, what do you think would have happened to me if I continued to ignore them? (they used to phone leave voicemails i'd never phone back not sure if he forgot to make appts and actually sent letters). I didn't go to ingeus for 7 months roughly it seems JSA didn't give ingeus my new address and they said they aren't allowed to update it on their system only JSA can send them something to do so. Reason I phoned them today is this time I think he did actually make me an Appt and then phoned me on day saying I had missed it which he never did in past so I was like oh crapp I better sort it now and ring them back.

 

I thought if they leave voicemail on your phone etc. or anything like that means they've made you an appointment and if you miss it you are in for a sanction? Only reason I phoned them today because I was worried of a sanction but they have my old address on their system still so I was worried that they would say oh well we sent a letter but you didn't attend boom sanction.

 

Well, if you provided the DWP with your up to date address then it's not your fault if the WP provider sends out mail to the old one. If referred for a sanction you would simply point out that you were not receiving the MANs because they were sent to an old address, despite the fact that you have kept everyone current.

 

There are others here who are more experienced in WP watching than I am, but as I understand the guidelines, a voicemail or text is not sufficient to count as a MAN, so you could contest any sanction on the basis that you were not correctly mandated. Of course, you can attend voluntarily in response to such communications, but you can't be sanctioned if you don't.

[Mr.P]

There's different rules for 1st n 2nd class mail and assumed receipt.

 

There's even the rule that where evidence of postage is not recorded then 2nd class is assumed in all cases.

 

There will also be the actual envelope that will be stamped or franked as 2nd class.

 

So your above example is complete scare mongering [naughty word] tbf

 

Errmmm.... The intent was not one of scaremongering, but to point out a badly worded section of the guidance notes (it should make a distinction between 1st & 2nd class post, but it doesn't). That said, I did have A4e trying to pull a stunt on me by way of sending notice of a job to apply for. Posted out on a Monday 2nd class, deadline for applying was 18:00, Thursday. Got home late that day to find the deadline missed. When I admonished the "adviser" for the use of 2nd class post, her excuse was "We can not be held responsible for time it takes for Royal Mail to deliver a letter".

[Bakatcha]

 

If you hand over your cv for them to look at what is stopping them just

taking it to the photocopier and taking copies?

Me! Before I let them see it I say - this is not for retention nor can you take copies. If they were to then ignore me there would immediately follow a demand to see their superior and a strongly worded complaint would be made - at a level sufficient to be heard by everyone else in the room. Shrinking violets do not fare well in the WP environment. People need to stand up for themselves.

Also I have never done a CV so would more than likely be sent on a CV course and

I bet they would try and take a copy whilst on the course plus get you to upload

it onto UJmash.

Not having a CV is another way to avoid giving them a copy! Not one I would recommend since it makes you an obvious candidate for a CV course. As for getting you to upload it to UJM, at present WP advisers do not have the power to mandate you to register with UJM (this is restricted to JCP advisers by means of a JSD), so I don't see how a WP adviser can make you upload it to UJM. Knowledge is power, get the facts and don't be afraid to use them to stand up for yourself.

[Bakatcha]

If you didn't receive a MAN (Mandatory Activity Notification) through the post or handed to you in person then you can treat the appointment as voluntary. If you don't attend and a doubt is raised against your claim, point out that no MAN was issued.

 

Whether you want the hassle, though, is a different question.

Exactly right Antone!

[Jmulv]

Well, if you provided the DWP with your up to date address then it's not your fault if the WP provider sends out mail to the old one. If referred for a sanction you would simply point out that you were not receiving the MANs because they were sent to an old address, despite the fact that you have kept everyone current.

 

There are others here who are more experienced in WP watching than I am, but as I understand the guidelines, a voicemail or text is not sufficient to count as a MAN, so you could contest any sanction on the basis that you were not correctly mandated. Of course, you can attend voluntarily in response to such communications, but you can't be sanctioned if you don't.

 

Dammnit!!

 

I probably could have kept ignoring them then. I thought oh crapp if they sent it to my old address I could be sanctioned, but their system did have my old address on it said on phone and I had been living in new property for 8 months. JSA didn't send them relevant info. I was employing aversion tactics on ingeus because they did nothing but waste my time and I have to travel so far to get in for it.

 

He did say on phone to me when I missed that appointment "oh it was voluntary so it won't effect your benefit" when he did say that I did clock it and think hmmm what? I didn't know ANYTHING ingeus was voluntary. He phoned me loads of times over 8 months saying oh I'll send you a letter for your next appt and never got one so carried on as normal. But as I said this time he said he'd make me an appt month later I got phone call on day it was supposed to be and he said i'd missed it. So I assume that he just kept forgetting to make me appointments.

 

Makes sense now though, I'm moving house in 2 months so maybe I can pull this off again. ha-ha we'll see. Obviously it's just risky and I was thinking sanction could happen any time. Rather get part time work to be fair.

[jasta11]

My advisor rang me last week and asked me to come tomorrow to do jobsearches at Ingeus. I did not receive a letter in writing telling me to come with the time etc but he told me over the phone last week, he said I will get an automated text the day before to remind me.

 

Suppose I 'forgot' about the interview and did not go, could I be in any trouble?

 

Plain and simple, he's not allowed to do that (and he probably knows it)...but I'd still go, just to cover yourself totally and show willing. Check my post #3478 a couple of pages back, print out the extract from DWP guidance and show it to him, saying that next time you'll report him to his manager, his head office in London and the DWP for breaching their regulations.

 

I'm all for a quiet life too but if you let him get away with it once he'll take it that he's allowed to just telephone you appointments and you'll get it again and again. If it's mandatory, you need it in writing, delivered in plenty of time and laid out according to DWP specifications including ; full details of what you're going there for, the compulsory 'blurb' about 'If you fail to attend', etc. Keep the letter too for your own records, don't hand it in to the receptionist.

 

Once they've sent a letter, they're allowed to phone/email/text you later to give you a reminder - but that's all they can use those methods for.

 

They only get away with things because we didn't know the rules..but a lot of us do now

[Mr.P]

Once they've sent a letter, they're allowed to phone/email/text you later to give you a reminder - but that's all they can use those methods for.

 

But only if you have agreed to them phoning/emailing/texting - I had given A4e explicit (or so I had thought) instruction that all communication was to be in writing. Took a few calls ending with "and which part of in writing only do you not understand ?" before they got the message.

 

Oh, and if you have a landline, BT has this service that converts text messages to speech and replays it on any phone - Damned annoying, but fortunately it is easily disabled. See: http://www.bt.com/includingyou/calling-easier-unwanted-calls.html#more3 - Disabled that "service" a long time ago on my phone number.

[G4C389]

Do alot of people withdraw consent in each branch? I did a while back cause my manager kept questioning me about it because I put down something else on the application form instead of job seeking to help my application, it nearly got me sacked them calling my employer but to be fair they didn't know

[Chester6]

Would it be possible to use sars to request the info as to how many have withdrawn consent as I would be curious about that?

[Bakatcha]

A Freedom of Information request (FOI) rather than a SAR I think. You would probably have to do ne for each drone though.

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[Chester6]

I lose track of the terms but I would be interested in the two local ones and if they are both drones or just mine

Edited June 30, 2013 by citizenB

[antone]

Would it be possible to use sars to request the info as to how many have withdrawn consent as I would be curious about that?

 

Yes, it would be an FoI request - a SAR is for personal data.

[Mr.P]

They only get away with things because we didn't know the rules..but a lot of us do now

 

In addition to the specific guidance notes for WP Providers, there is also a raft of "generic" guidance notes intended to cover all DWP programs delivered by contractors. http://www.dwp.gov.uk/supplying-dwp/what-we-buy/welfare-to-work-services/provider-guidance/framework-generic-guidance.shtml

 

The section that Chester6 and others need to quote with regards to travel expenses is Chapter 2, Para. 140.

Participants attending provision are entitled to a refund of the travel costs they incur. It is your responsibility to pay the participant's costs as travel expenses are included within the funding received from DWP as part of the overall contract package.

 

In other words, if Ingeus (and others) are not refunding travel expenses as per contract, they are (possibly) committing fraud.

[jasta11]

That's about the only aspect of my branch of Ingeus I can't fault - they pay expenses without any problems. I think I'll start printing my own T-shirts with various DWP guidelines on them..anyone for a 'Mandation Regs' T-shirt? All sizes catered for I expect this one to be a best seller.

[Mr.P]

Can you go one better and print it on to a wet kipper (or failing that, an Attitude Readjustment Tool) ?

[jasta11]

Can you go one better and print it on to a wet kipper (or failing that, an Attitude Readjustment Tool) ?

 

 

..sadly no, my printer won't print onto a baseball bat Some more suggestions for the T-shirts;

 

'I record EVERYTHING!'

'LOVE those GUIDELINES!'

'Consent WITHDRAWN!'

'EXPENSES - or else!'

'Activity NOT REASONABLE!'

'NOPE - not allowed!'

'Nice try - REPORTED!'

'Read the RULES, buster!'

[Mr.P]

Some more suggestions for the T-shirts;

 

'Say PLEASE, not do it'

'Address me as SIR, not bud'

'You are stuck in here every day. I get to go home in five minutes.'

'Emancipation through employment' (modern version of "labour makes [you] free")

Edited May 5, 2013 by Mr.P

[Chester6]

Do no address me as darling or sweetie

 

You will address me as sir

[Chester6]

Ingeus are .......

Fill in the blanks with as many accurate terms as possible, there may not be a t-shirt big enough for that

[Bakatcha]

Ingeus are .......

Fill in the blanks with as many accurate terms as possible, there may not be a t-shirt big enough for that

Some time ago I used some plain white T shirts and some felt tips to make my own protest T shirts which I wore whilst signing on. Slogans included "WP =21st century slavery", "Don't laugh - I'm here to take your job - courtesy of the WP" and "Arbeit Macht Frei". The only one who understood the latter was one of the G4s guards who originated in West Africa and spoke some German.

[Chester6]

Don't Matter

Edited May 8, 2013 by Chester6
Can't delete post

[Lorise]

Hey Guys/Gals, i am after some advice please, was at my weekly Ingeus appointment today, my advisor...(number 6) has told me i have to apply for this job he has printed off for me, it's for shop work which is fine as that is what i am after but it's full time and i am only after part time as i'm a single parent and i have no parents (both deceased) to help look after my son, and he is too old really for child care at 13years old, the job is between 7am to 7pm with the odd 11pm finish, he also wants me to sign up to the new universal job match site and upload my CV as he says the job centre will want to keep track of my job applications,he wants this all done in time for my next appointment with him next week. Do i have to register with Universal site if the job centre haven't asked me yet, also do i have to apply for this full time job. Thank you in advance for any help.

[jasta11]

Everything Ingeus ask you to do must be 'reasonable in the participants circumstances'. Your advisor will be aware of your limitations due to a dependant child so he shouldn't be asking you to apply for such jobs (but of course they aren't bothered; it's all potential payments to them). I'd be inclined to tell the JC and see what they say, hopefully common sense will prevail.

 

Regarding him 'telling' you to register with UJ.. he can't. Only a JC FLA (Front Line Advisor) can mandate you to register - and it's purely at their discretion - plus it must be done via a formal Jobseekers Direction (get it in writing). As for him telling you the JC will 'want to keep track of your applications', remember that even if you do register, you don't have to tick the box giving the JC permission to view your account.

 

Extract from the DWP CPS Union document here;

 

The Secretary of State for DWP will make an announcement on 1st March 2013 that, with effect from 4th March 2013, FLAs can mandate claimants to register for UJ. This will be done via a Jobseeker Direction. Importantly, however, management have acknowledged that mandatory sign up to UJ will not be a blanket approach; instead, FLAs should encourage claimants to use UJ. Mandatory sign up will be on an individual basis, if the FLA feels that UJ would be beneficial to the claimant, and they have „unreasonably refused‟.

 

My Ingeus bod tried the same thing with me and I told him that while I use UJ, I have not been formally mandated to register by the JC and only they can do this, not him. He just said 'Ok, no problem'.

Edited May 7, 2013 by jasta11

[Lorise]

Thank you Jasta11, that is a great help, will look into that DWP cps document more, i think they are starting to panic now as the whole thing hasn't worked the way they wanted it to and now they are getting desperate, as he has been my advisor twice now and this is the first time he has shown me a job vacancy....all be it the wrong one as i'm down for part time work not full, roll on August time as that's when i'm up for parole as been there 2 years by then haha thanks again.

[Mr.P]

my advisor...(number 6) has told me i have to apply for this job he has printed off for me, it's for shop work which is fine as that is what i am after but it's full time and i am only after part time

 

If your JSag states "part time work only", then he'd have a hard time forcing you to apply (and that assumes he has issued a mandation notice with all the correct wording in writing). That said, it might be worth your while applying anyway - You never know, the shop might be willing to offer part time hours... In the meantime, your adviser may change before the next meeting and/or he might have forgotten about his demand.

 

If you need more info on the specific wording of a MAN, I'll dig out the references again - In a nutshell, it must be in writing, verbal/email/txt is not acceptable.

 

Oh, you might also want to read the terms and conditions of the UJ web site - Pay attention to the phrases "we accept no liability for..." and "will share data with any/all tom dick & harrys". If need be, print it out, highlight any/all sections that you might reasonably object to and thrust it under the nose of your adviser.

Edited May 8, 2013 by Mr.P