BT unlawfully? charging me...

[Alastrum]

My apologies if this info is well known already... but I suppose it's always useful for someone new to this site.

I was given this tip by a friend who used to work for a debt-collection agency. I haven't yet had the occasion to try it myself, but I do know someone who has used this, and it worked very successfully.

 

If you start getting threatening letters from a debt collection agency, write back to them. Write a very long letter, waffling on and on about your hardships and how you arrived at these circumstances. Plead your case, asking for sympathy/clemency blah blah. The point is to bore whoever reads the letter, to the point where they start skimming over passages. Then, in the penultimate paragraph, say that you are enclosing a cheque for £XX (a token amount, perhaps 10% of the sum owed), and ask for them to accept it as full and final settlement of all monies owed. Close by expressing a desire to be as helpful as possible, but again asking for consideration/sympathy etc.

 

What usually happens is that your letter will arrive in an office and be opened and skimmed by one of a team of juniors, usually students doing holiday or part-time work. If a cheque is enclosed, it will go into a pile to be paid in at the end of the day/week. The letter, if it requires further action, will go in an intray for reading by those higher up.

 

The point is, that your cheque will almost certainly be paid into their bank before the letter is read by someone with the knowledge and/or authority to deal with it. But by then it's too late, because paying your cheque in means that in law they have accepted your terms i.e. full and final settlement. There is nothing they can do, and they cannot legally chase you for any more money.

 

My friend who used this, got a £3000 debt wiped out, only paying about £300 of it.

[payingonlyencouragesthem]

I prefer the CCA route. It only costs £1. I think your "friend" is giving some very suspect advice here...

[ashmk]

I think your friend may either be telling you porkie pies or he was very lucky.

 

I wouldnt advise using this 'tatic' to anyone.

 

The only time it would be time to use such a tatic is when you have used up all the correct legal ways ie CCA request.

When your found bang to rights then mabey give it a go.

[dannyboy660]

Alastrum,

 

It sounds good in theory, but DCA's have a habit of 'losing' letters.

 

It's true they're dealt with by the minions, but most letters are opened 'en masse' and if they don't contain cheques/PO's/Cash they go straight in the confi waste. Those that do, simply have the amount and account number noted, and the amount offset against the outstanding debt.

 

A letter asking for F&F will almost certainly disappear, as the DCA has to earn it's keep from the OC, and even if the debt has been 'purchased', I can't imagine they would really give in that easily. The mail is very rarely read in full, it just isn't realistic.

 

It might be worth a try, but I have my doubts 8-)

[Alastrum]

While I respect the advice given in this forum, and would always prefer/recommend it over any advice from any other source (except a lawyer), I would like to point out that this was posted here in good faith, and given to me in good faith. I do know for a fact it has worked, and my friend is a real person (not imaginary, as implied by the inverted commas!).

I'm sure there are better ways, but this seemed to me to be a quick and rather neat solution, although I accept it might not get past an eagle-eyed clerk in every instance, especially if they're wise to it.

[djdave]

I'd still take the CCA route, unless I knew for certain that I really did owe the DCA money and wanted to "trick" them.

 

Certainly I'd rather spend £1 than £300!

[renegotiation]

I certainly don't see how it could be legally binding unless you had a letter from the DCA offering full and final settlement in the first place. Possession is nine tenths of the law as the saying goes. They could deny having your letter and you wouldn't have a leg to stand on. I'm all for tricking those nasty DCA's, but I would say anyone trying that would have to be bonkers. ***NO ONE TRY THIS*** That's my opinion anyway.

[payingonlyencouragesthem]

I do know for a fact it has worked, and my friend is a real person (not imaginary, as implied by the inverted commas!).

 

Sorry about that - maybe he is real but this is not something that's likely to work again.

[jaxads]

Not that I would try it (would prefer the £1 CCA route & wouldn't have a spare £300 anway!!) but - if you state in your letter to them, something along the lines of

 

"cashing of the enclosed cheque will be seen as acceptance by yourselves of full and final settlement of this debt"

 

............... would that work ????

 

As they must have the letter to have the cheque --- and therefore cannot cash the cheque without the letter??

[djdave]

I'm uncomfortable with this whole idea. 99.9% of the time the DCA is fishing or has bought an unenforcable debt, so there's no need to resort to tricks.

 

We're the first to complain - rightly - when a DCA tries to fleece us, so I don't feel there's a need to stoop to their level when most of the time the law is on our side anyway.

[ashmk]

I do know for a fact it has worked, and my friend is a real person (not imaginary, as implied by the inverted commas!).

 

 

Reminded me of a great homer simpson quote.

 

 

Oh! Look at me! I m making people happy! I m the magical man from Happy Land, in a gumdrop house on Lollipop Lane!

 

 

Sorry

[Alastrum]

Ha ha, very funny:) Well, I guess I can't prove he's real and that it really happened, without publishing his name and contact details, and I doubt he'd want me to do that. So, it's not worth getting het up about; either you believe it or you don't, I don't care. I was just trying to be helpful, that's all.

[sosumi]

I think it's important to keep an eye on the bigger picture here. £1 for a CCA is a challenge - not only a legal request, but a statement that their (DCA) behaviour is unacceptable. What disturbs me is the thought that many people aren't aware that they have any rights to question the actions of DCAs. So they're still suffering - many going under. The only way to stop it from happening is to challenge them legally. And to formally make a complaint. If spending another £10 to request an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) helps the complaint, it's money well spent.

 

I'm in this situation and although it's hurting, with the help here I feel stronger. But I don't want anyone else to go through this. I don't want to trick tricksters. These people shouldn't be allowed to do what they do. Not to anyone. That £1 is a powerful start towards change.

[The Lantana]

I've written countless letters to Banks and DCA's. When they run to two pages I print 'double sided'. This saves paper and postage. The thing is, from my experience, they often miss the second page. I think what maybe happens is the mail gets 'bulk scanned' on arrival and their scanners only scan the first side!

 

So it might actually work. Personally I'd only send £1.00 if I was going to try it.

 

If you really wanted a laugh, you could send two separate letters at the same time - one with the sob story enclosing the cheque, and the other with the full and final offer! They bank the cheque, you wave letter number two at them. However I think this would be seen as unfair and is probably against OFT debt repayment guidelines - if any exist.

 

Regards

 

Lantana

[Alastrum]

I've been on this site long enough to know this is a no-brainer, but I'd appreciate some advice as to how best to tackle this.

 

I've been a BT customer for many years, but about 3 years ago I took advantage of a good deal from my ISP (Virgin) to switch my (landline) call charges over to them (basically, unlimited landline calls as part of my broadband package: they don't do it now, but are still honouring those customers who signed up for it), while still paying BT for line rental.

 

Everything was fine for a while, then about a year ago I got a phone call from BT trying to entice me back. It was a very sneaky phone call, asking me if I was interested in a particular service, and when I said I might be: tell me more, they only then revealed that it would involve transferring my call charges back to BT. At this, I said I wasn't interested, and the conversation ended.

 

A week or so later, I got letters, one from Virgin saying basically "Sorry you're leaving us", and one from BT saying "Welcome back!"

Naturally, I got straight on the phone to both BT and Virgin and demanded to know what was going on: it seems that despite my refusal to return to BT, they had gone and signed me up anyway!

 

I was adamant that I didn't want to leave Virgin and return to BT, so I kicked up a fuss, and BT agreed to drop the whole thing. I got letters from both Virgin and BT confirming there had been an "error", and that I was staying with Virgin. The next statement I got from Virgin, I checked, and my call charges remained part of the package, so I assumed that the matter was resolved.

 

Fast forward to last week, and I got a quarterly statement from BT that I thought seemed a little high (over £80), so I checked my online statement, and discovered that they'd charged me for calls! Disturbed by this, I checked the previous 2 bills, and discovered that they'd been charging me for calls since the incident related above, DESPITE me insisting they'd done it against my wishes and I wanted to stay with Virgin, and DESPITE their assurances that the matter was resolved a year ago.

 

So, naturally, I rang BT and disputed the bill. It took a while, as I started with a call centre worker in India who could barely speak English. After some shouting, I got her to connect me with another worker who spoke better English (who, laughably, pretended his name was "Paul", presumably to make me think i was speaking to someone in the UK, but his Indian accent was unmistakable). After some more irate shouting from me, I was finally transferred to someone in the UK.

 

I explained the whole story to them, and said I refused to pay the amount they were requesting. I pointed out that they had been taking the call charges without my agreement or consent for the past year, despite my contract with Virgin, and that that was unlawful. I said I'd pay the line rental, and nothing else, as per my contract with them, and demanded they deduct both the present and the previous call charges from the bill before I paid it.

 

Here's the really silly thing: I don't use the phone much anyway, so the entire amount of call charges, from 3 quarters' worth of bills, is less than £50. This would leave me paying BT around £30. Guess what: BT REFUSED!!!!!!!!! I was flabbergasted: they have clearly taken these charges by unlawful means, and not even ANYONE at BT can be dumb enough to know that they can't bill me for charges I haven't signed up for (can they???) I argued and argued, but they insisted I had to pay.

 

My response? I told them to stick their bill where the sun don't shine, and that in view of their unlawful activity and unreasonable attitude, they'd just lost a customer. I promptly hung up and phoned Virgin: within a few minutes, I'd transferred my line rental over to Virgin, and am now not a BT customer anymore. Didn't hear a peep from BT until yesterday, when I got a Final Bill, which includes the full amount of the £80 bill, plus a termination charge or two, and the total is now £97.91.

 

I've been trawling through my files looking for the old letter from BT that admitted they had made a mistake and wouldn't be transferring me back, but I haven't found it yet... still looking though, as this would be a big help.

 

But in the meantime, any advice as to how I begin tackling this? I obviously don't want to give BT another penny after their despicable behaviour, but I accept I probably have to pay for the line rental for the last quarter. But how do I get them to deduct the call charges that they should never have taken in the first place?

[Sidewinder]

Were you paying Virgin for the calls too? If not, then you will probably need to make an assessment of what BT have charged compared to what Virgin would have done, and deduct the difference from their final bill, but if you were paying for calls with both providers, then that is another matter altogether.

[Alastrum]

Yes I was, that's the whole point: my call charges were collected by Virgin as part of my broadband package. Landline to landline calls were free, but calls to mobiles and certain numbers were charged. So BT have charged me for calls that I was already paying Virgin for. That's why I want them deducted from the final bill. I can't have 2 providers charging me for the same calls: it's insane, illegal, and wrong!

[Alastrum]

Hello,

 

I have an old debt from several years back: the debt originated in about 2001 (messy divorce), although I made efforts to repay it for a couple of years afterwards, until I was made redundant, and couldn't afford to keep up the repayments. I don't remember the exact last dates of acknowledgement/payment but I'm 95% certain it's Statute Barred by now, and if not, then it will be soon in a matter of mere months.

 

I've heard absolutely nothing about it from either the original creditor or any DCA for a few years now, until suddenly I've started receiving a rush of letters and calls from Mackenzie Hall.

 

A month ago I moved into a new rented property, and a Credit Reference check was done on me by my new landlord: I suspect this is what has flagged me up for attention again.

 

The thing is, in 2005, having traced my real father, I changed my name by deed poll to match his. The letters from MH are addressed to my old name.

 

I changed my name for personal/family reasons, not to escape creditors, but it does seem that, although it was an unintended consequence, my name change perhaps confused my creditors for a time. However, I've made no secret of my name change, and they must associate the 'new' me with the 'old' me, otherwise I wouldn't be hearing from them at all. The name change took place long after I'd ceased making payments to the creditors, and no payments have ever been made under my new name.

 

I haven't responded to any of the letters or calls (if I don't recognise the number on caller display, I never answer).

 

From reading all the threads here, I feel fairly confident I can just safely ignore them, and not respond at all. But I thought it wise to check, just in case. Given MH seem to be well known for chasing SB, or near SB, debts, and given that in any case, the debt "belongs" to someone who no longer exists as a legal entity, am I correct in assuming that this debt is no longer recoverable?

 

Many thanks.

[ScarletPimpernel]

If you can be sure it's SB, then write and tell them that, and that you won't be paying them anything; that should put a stop to their comms.

[dpick]

I would just keep quiet for now Mackenzie Hall are well known for purchasing debt that are statute barred or just about statute barred. I would wait until they send you something that requires a reply, then post up details for the experts to give their opinion on.

 

dpick

[Alastrum]

I'm kind of reluctant to have any contact with them at all, under my new name, as this will definitely confirm to them that we are one and the same person. At present, they seem unsure, as their letters are all addressed to, and refer to their need to trace, the 'old' me. Once I can be 100% sure the debt is SB, then I don't mind contacting them. If I wait until 2012, then I know for certain that the debt is SB. So can I just ignore them for a few months?

[Alastrum]

dpick,

 

Yes, my thoughts exactly: while they remain unsure, I think I'm safe. If they send me a legal doc that requires a legal response, then I'll do something about it....

 

Thanks.

[Bazooka Boo]

Food for thought here, but in reality none of us exist except on paper (birth certificate) but that touches on another subject and isn't for discussion on CAG.

 

Ideally what you need to do is to find out exactly when the last payment was on this, that will put you in a much stronger position, alternatively if you feel it is over the six year limitation period (5 in Scotland) then just send them the SB letter, and let them either contest it or admit they have been had again, Muckhall are infamous for trying to recover SB debts, they hope that people don't know their rights or consumer law and will pay up without question.

[Bazooka Boo]

If they send me a legal doc that requires a legal response, then I'll do something about it....

 

Ha ha, you'll be waiting for eternity, these clowns don't know the meaning of legal!

[Alastrum]

Yes, I agree. I changed my name in 2005, and no payments were ever made under my new name. Although I can't be sure, and have no way of finding out, exactly when I made the last payment, I know it was before I changed my name. So if I wait until the end of 2011, then I know for certain it's SB. So I'll ignore them for now, and if they haven't given up by the end of Jan 2012, I'll write to them.