MBNA and Arrow Global - claim form received - bal prob all unlawful charges ***Struck Out With Costs***

[MrHat]

Right - Just called them and was told the following: 1. That I have not followed the correct protocol as I need to file my defence prior to them providing documents in responce to CPR 31.14 request

[MrHat]

2. It may take them up to 6 weeks to get hold of documents requested

[MrHat]

3. That I should file my defence without having access to docs 4. My other CPR 18 request for details of transactions and charges is not possible to respond to 5. They probably will not agree to an extension What now? (sorry no paras due to being on work pc)

[AndyOrch]

Yep thats Arrow litigators for you, mixing their protocol with civil procedure rules:|

 

Read here look were their understanding of " Protocol" got them Claim form from Arrow Global / RBS Mint

 

I will get back to you shortly Mr Hat I need to lay down in a darkened room after your post:!:

 

Regards

 

Andy

[MrHat]

Thanks Andy - just read that thread. Interesting reading. I am wondering whether I should e-mail over an extension request based on today's phone call. The case is being dealt with by Arrow not the sols. I rang the Sols and was told that the solicitor was merely putting his name to it but it was being handled by one of the Arrow team who IO spoke to and got the e-mail address. I recorded the call btw.

[MrHat]

My CPR 31.14 request stated that if they did not comply that I may ask the court to strike out the claim - should I stick to my word? Or try CPR 15.5 request by e-mail first (just to show that I am doing everything I can to follow procedure)

[AndyOrch]

You have no alternative but to make application to request extension , disclose documents, or strike out if they don't favor the first 2. Muppet's!!!!.

 

Andy

[citizenB]

Right - Just called them and was told the following: 1. That I have not followed the correct protocol as I need to file my defence prior to them providing documents in responce to CPR 31.14 request

 

 

Erm nope.. they issue claim.. either with documents or shortly after in order for you to be ABLE to prepare a defence. If they dont, then you request them by CPR31.14 and they send them .. if not, you are able to request extra time in order for them to find them, send them and then you get to be able to prepare your defence. !!!

 

2. It may take them up to 6 weeks to get hold of documents requested

 

 

So, is this what they are going to the tell the judge when he ORDERS them to provide these documents.. the ones they should have in order to bring the claim ??

 

 

3. That I should file my defence without having access to docs 4. My other CPR 18 request for details of transactions and charges is not possible to respond to 5. They probably will not agree to an extension What now? (sorry no paras due to being on work pc)

 

 

What mickey mouse solicitor are they using ???

 

 

Yep thats Arrow litigators for you, mixing their protocol with civil procedure rules:|

 

Read here look were their understanding of " Protocol" got them Claim form from Arrow Global / RBS Mint

 

I will get back to you shortly Mr Hat I need to lay down in a darkened room after your post:!:

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy - just read that thread. Interesting reading. I am wondering whether I should e-mail over an extension request based on today's phone call. The case is being dealt with by Arrow not the sols. I rang the Sols and was told that the solicitor was merely putting his name to it but it was being handled by one of the Arrow team who IO spoke to and got the e-mail address. I recorded the call btw.

 

Ah right.. they arent using a solicitor.. hmmm, so he is just signing HIS name to their cock ups ?? Should we be letting the SRA know about this arrangement ?? You recorded the call.. brilliant

 

 

 

I will get back to you shortly Mr Hat I need to lay down in a darkened room after your post:!:

 

Move over Andy

[MrHat]

considering that I was told on the phone that it can take up to 6 weeks to get documents, should I request the maximum 28 days extension? Is it ok to do this via e-mail or should it be by post (or both)? Also how long should I give them to agree to one of the first two before attempting to strike out considering that I only have 8 days left until defence needs to be filed? Would I still need to prepare a defence for the 13th Sept in any case?

[AndyOrch]

Must be rent a Sol CB , their world collapses when the defendant challenges the claim.

[AndyOrch]

considering that I was told on the phone that it can take up to 6 weeks to get documents, should I request the maximum 28 days extension? Is it ok to do this via e-mail or should it be by post (or both)? Also how long should I give them to agree to one of the first two before attempting to strike out considering that I only have 8 days left until defence needs to be filed? Would I still need to prepare a defence for the 13th Sept in any case?

 

Phone them up dont request " tell " them you need them to email conformation, in light of the 6 weeks to produce paperwork for their claim, of an agreed 28 day extension CPR 15.5 failure will leave you no alternative but to request an order for their compliance or to strike out their claim.

 

Andy

[MrHat]

Right - phoned and they were not happy. They said that I had clearly been online googling and that I am clearly not legally minded!

Think I have made a slight error though. They said without me even asking for it that they are agreeing to a six week extension and that they would notify the court. I said, I need it in writing by e-mail tomorrow so that I could notify the court or I would have to ask the court to order compliance if they do not do so. They said 'We would welcome you to do so'.

 

My mistake is that they cannot agree to a 6 week extension as the maximum is 28 days. I also suspect that if they do e-mail confirmation, it will not be suffient for a 15.5 extension as it needs to state a specific date within 28 days. Am I correct?

 

They are attempting to frustrate the process and mislead me on CPR. I will tell them 1st thing tomorrow that I need e-mail confirmation "agreeing to a CPR 15.5 extension until 11th October".

 

I don't think they are going to play ball.

 

What steps do I need to take to get a court order for compliance and/or strike out?

 

I am short on time, especially as I am away from Thu-Mon.

[AndyOrch]

1st Credit & LCS Battle - court papers received - help - help post 430 saves me repeating myself.

 

 

 

Right - phoned and they were not happy. They said that I had clearly been online googling and that I am clearly not legally minded!

 

Wot like they is ha ha

 

 

 

Andy

Edited September 5, 2011 by Andyorch

[MrHat]

Hi Andy,

 

I have prepared my N244 form and am working on my 'Draft Order' although it will be quite similar to the one you told me to look at.

 

Questions for you:

 

1. Bearing in mind that my defence is due by 4pm on 13 Sept, what date should the draft order say that they should comply by?

2. How long does it take to hear back from the court re N244 and is it ok to fax it over to speed things up? - just read that you can fax it

3. If this date is beyond my defence due date, do I still need to enter a holding defence in the meantime?

4. I take it that a N244 has no bearing on my deadline for defence?

5. Is the court likely to accept this N244 request bearing in mind the facts in this case? Or is it a bit of a lottery?

 

My plan of action is to request a proper agreement for an extension by tomorrow (sent to me by e-mail). If I get that, I will notify the court and get the extension. If I don't, we go down the N244 route. Is this a good plan of action?

 

Many (many) thanks for all your help

Edited September 5, 2011 by MrHat
additional q sn

[MrHat]

Also - I assume that it's ok to use virtually the same Draft Order text as the chap on the other thread did. Just need to personalise the docs I am requesting. Is this ok? S

 

Sorry for all the Qs, I will hopefully learn from all of this and be able to help others and take some of the burden off you AndY!

[AndyOrch]

Hi Andy,

 

I have prepared my N244 form and am working on my 'Draft Order' although it will be quite similar to the one you told me to look at.

 

Questions for you:

 

1. Bearing in mind that my defence is due by 4pm on 13 Sept, what date should the draft order say that they should comply by? Providing you get your extension plus 28

2. How long does it take to hear back from the court re N244 and is it ok to fax it over to speed things up? - just read that you can fax it last heard in the region of 2 weeks behind yes ok to fax but then ring to check receipt

.3. If this date is beyond my defence due date, do I still need to enter a holding defence in the meantime? Depends the Court should enter a bar on your defence on receipt of the application hence the phone call

4. I take it that a N244 has no bearing on my deadline for defence? If it contains a request for CPR 15.5 extension then yes

5. Is the court likely to accept this N244 request bearing in mind the facts in this case? Or is it a bit of a lottery?The claimant must prove its claim and you must be allowed to submit a defence, without disclosure it very hard whether a DJ will agree is another thing

My plan of action is to request a proper agreement for an extension by tomorrow (sent to me by e-mail). If I get that, I will notify the court and get the extension. If I don't, we go down the N244 route. Is this a good plan of action?

If they dont you put the request for CPR 15.5 within your application also.

Many (many) thanks for all your help

 

Regards

 

Andy

[AndyOrch]

Also - I assume that it's ok to use virtually the same Draft Order text as the chap on the other thread did. Just need to personalise the docs I am requesting. Is this ok? S

 

Sorry for all the Qs, I will hopefully learn from all of this and be able to help others and take some of the burden off you AndY!

 

Yes thats fine just state which CPR you have used and what you asked for and what you wish to be disclosed.

Andy

 

[MrHat]

Thanks for the response:

 

"1. Bearing in mind that my defence is due by 4pm on 13 Sept, what date should the draft order say that they should comply by? Providing you get your extension plus 28"

 

So if I put that I need 28 days CPR 15.5 extension on my N244 form, I will not have to file my defence on 13th September? Correct?

 

And then could I put in the draft order that they need to supply the docs 14 days prior to my new defence deadline - say 27th September and then my defence deadline would be 11th October

 

Would that work?

 

Also, I assume I need to pay a fee. How much is it and how can I pay?

 

And finally: If the claimant does agree to an extension, was I right in saying (in a recent post) that it can only be up to 28 days and that I need to get it in writing that they agree to a "CPR 15.5 extension until 11th October". Think they were trying to confuse matters by verbally saying that they have agreed to a 6 week extension and would post to me 'at the end of the week' and notify court. Suspect they are trying to trick me into missing my defence deadline.

 

If I do get a satisfactory e-mail, I can then fax off to the court and notify them of our agreed extension??? Not holding my breath though.

 

 

Think we are almost there for the night!

[MrHat]

and also - here is my draft 'draft order' - is it ok?

 

 

Unlessby 4pm on 27

th

September 2011 the claimant complies with requests made by thedefendant on 25

th

August 2011 pursuant to CPR 18 and on 25

th

August 2011 pursuant to CPR 31:14 to clarify information pertainingto the defendants request and provide copies of the followingdocumentation:-

1.Copiesof the Agreement and any docum

ents/

termsand conditions

referr

edto within, which the claimant seeks to rely upon

2.A copy of the Default Notice and Proof of Postage

3.A current full statement of account showing how the balance claimedis calculated including all transactions, interest and charges ('latefees' and 'overlimit fees')

4.The Termination Notice

5.The Notice of Assignment, with proof of service of the same compliantwith s196 of the Law of Property Act 1925

6.Copies of any statement or other document relied upon

 

Theclaim shall stand struck out and the defendant shall be at liberty toenter judgement against the claimant without further order of thecourt and [ii] the Claimant shall pay the Defendant his/her costs ofthis case to be assessed on the standard basis and pursuant to theprovisions of The Litigants in Person (Costs and Expenses) Act1975.

 

In the event that the Claimant shall comply with thisorder

1.TheDefendant shall within 14 days thereafter file his defence

2.TheClaimant shall pay the Defendant the costs of this application

[AndyOrch]

Thanks for the response:

 

"1. Bearing in mind that my defence is due by 4pm on 13 Sept, what date should the draft order say that they should comply by? Providing you get your extension plus 28"

 

So if I put that I need 28 days CPR 15.5 extension on my N244 form, I will not have to file my defence on 13th September? Correct? In theory

And then could I put in the draft order that they need to supply the docs 14 days prior to my new defence deadline - say 27th September and then my defence deadline would be 11th October

 

Would that work? Correct if the extension is accepted

 

Also, I assume I need to pay a fee. How much is it and how can I pay? £45.00 cheque to HMCS

And finally: If the claimant does agree to an extension, was I right in saying (in a recent post) that it can only be up to 28 days and that I need to get it in writing that they agree to a "CPR 15.5 extension until 11th October". Think they were trying to confuse matters by verbally saying that they have agreed to a 6 week extension and would post to me 'at the end of the week' and notify court. Suspect they are trying to trick me into missing my defence deadline. Perhaps they googled that

 

If I do get a satisfactory e-mail, I can then fax off to the court and notify them of our agreed extension??? Not holding my breath though. Yes with no charge

 

Think we are almost there for the night!

 

Before you can complete the application its depends on whether they will agree separately or you have to seek their compliance with the application.

On a separate request for extension (ie without an application the accepted term is 28 days, anymore and you have to make it vis a vis an N244 so you pay).

You have to make sure all goes to plan so everything fits date wise but i see you seem to understand the system so far.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[MrHat]

Great, I think I sort of get it.

 

So if I go down the N244 route, I could ask for more than 28 days, in theory, by citing that they told me on the phone (which I recorded) that they need up to 6 weeks to comply to CPR 31.14. Question is, do I want to give them enough time to comply when they should have got these documents prior to bringing the claim and have supplied them to me with 7 days upon request? Think I will stick with plan A if I do need to do the N244.

 

I am first going to request that they write me an e-mail agreeing to a 28 day CPR 15.5 extension to avoid the N244. If they have any sense, they should do it as this would work best for both parties. If they do agree, I can always do the N244 nearer the extended deadline if I haven't received docs 1 week out from my new defence due date.

 

Tomorrow should be interesting.

 

Please correct me if any of the above is wide of the mark or ill-thought out

[AndyOrch]

Sounds like a plan:wink:

[MrHat]

 

One final q for the night:

 

Any reason that I shouldn't e-mail the Arrow rep (this is all being handled by one individual at their end and I have their e-mail addy) a CPR 15.5 request then follow up with a phone call requesting that they reply directly to my e-mail and agree to the 28 day extension?

 

Just trying to avoid being sent some waffle such as "we will suspend collection activity until we supply docs and won't request a default judgement, honest, trust us etc" as clearly the court would not view that as a CPR 15.5 agreed extension.....

[AndyOrch]

However you feel most comfortable and can achieve an agreement and conformation to get off to Court.

 

Andy

[MrHat]

Hi Andy -

 

In my N244 draft 'draft order' can I add this?:

 

 

CPR 15.5 28-day extension to 4pm 11th October 2011 (extended from 13th September) granted for the defendant to file a defence in light of claimants failure to reply to CPR 31.14 and CPR 18 requests and subsequent refusal to agree to a CPR 15.5 extension upon request.

Then I would also make a brief reference to it in box 4 on the N244 form too?

Otherwise it will be similar to the one on the thread you told me to read...

Does that read ok?