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    • If anybody has any advice here, it would be greatly appreciated, I already suffer with pre-existing disabilities & have struggled with this so far. 
    • so return of goods order etc etc read upload  scan pages to jpg, redact in mspaint. the convert to and merge to one mass PDF  read upload and use the online listed sites for all 3 stages. do you want to keep the car? i will guess this was a manual paper claimform direct from the co.court or was it org sent from salford bulk processing and has just got reaq ssigned?      
    • Speaking of the reformatory boys, here they are with all of their supporters, some of whom traveled with them from miles away, all carefully crammed together and photographed to look like there were more than about 80 .. rather like Farages last rally with even fewer people crammed around what looked like an ice cream van or mobile tea bar ... Although a number in the crowd apparently thought they were at a vintage car rally as they appeared to be chanting 'crank-her'. A vintage Bentley must be out of view.   Is this all there is? Its less than the Tory candidate. - shut up and smile while they get a camera angle that looks better
    • in order for us to help you we require the following information:- Which Court have you received the claim from ? Canterbury Name of the Claimant ? Moneybarn No 1   How many defendant's  joint or self ? One Date of issue –  29/05/24 Acknowledged by 14/06/24  Defence by 29/06/24  Particulars of Claim PARTICULARS OF CLAIM 1.  By a Conditional Sale Agreement in writing made on 25th August 2022. Between the Claimant and Defendant, the Claimant let to the Defendant on Conditional Sale. A Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi (200 P S) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200cc (Sep.2015) Registration No, ******* Chassis number ***************** (“The Vehicle”).  A copy of the agreement is attached  2.  The price of the goods was £15,995.00. The Initial Rental was £8500.00.  The total charge for credit was £3575.;17 And the balance of £11,070.17 was payable by 59 equal consecutive monthly instalments of £187 63. payable on the 25th of each month. 3.  The following were expressed conditions of the set agreement, Clause 8: Our Right to End this Agreement  8.1   Subject to sending you the notice as required by law, any of the following events will entitle us to end this Agreement: 8.1.2  You fail to pay the advance payment (if any) or any of the payments as specified on the front page of this agreement or any other sum payable under this Agreement. 8.1.3 If any of the information you have given us before entering into this Agreement or during the term of this Agreement was false 8.1.4 We consider, acting reasonably, that the goods may be in jeopardy or that our rights in the goods may otherwise be prejudiced. 8.1.5 If you die 8.1.6 If a bankruptcy petition is presented against you; if you petition for your own bankruptcy, or make a live arrangement with your creditors or call a meeting of them. 8. 1.7 If in Scotland, you become insolvent or sequestration or a receiver, judicial factor or trustee to be appointed over any of your estate, or effects or suffer an arrestment, charge attachment or other diligence to be issued or levied on any of your estate or effects or suffer any exercise, or threatened exercise of landlords hype hypothec 8.1.8 If you are a partnership, you are dissolved 8.1.9 If the goods are destroyed, lost, stolen and/or treated by the insurer as a total loss in response to an insurance claim. 8.1.10 If we reasonably believe any payment made to us in respect of this Agreement is a proceed of crime. 8.1.11 If steps are taken by us to terminate any other agreement which you have entered into with us. Clause 9.  Effect of Us Terminating Agreement 9.1 If this Agreement terminates under clause 8 the following will apply 9.1.1 Subject to the rights given to you by law, you will no longer be entitled to possession of the goods and must return them to us to an address as we may reasonably specify, (removing or commencing the removal of any cherished plates) together with a V5 registration certificate, both sets of keys and a service record book. If you are unable or unwilling to return the goods to us then we shall collect the goods and we'll charge you in accordance with clause 10.3 9.1.2 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you for all payments and all other sums do under this agreement at the date of termination 9.1.3 We will sell the goods or public sale at the earliest opportunity once the goods are in a reasonable condition which includes a return of the items listed in clause 7.1.4 9.1.4 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you of the rest of the Total Amount Payable under this agreement less: ( a) A rebate for early settlement ias required by law which will be calculated and notified to you at the time of payment (b) The proceeds of sale of the goods (if any) after deduction of all costs associated with finding you and/or the goods, recovery, refurbishment and repair. Insurance, storage, sale, agents fees, cherished plate removal, replacement keys, costs associated with obtaining service history for the goods and in relation to obtaining a duplicate V5 registration certificate 4, The following are particulars required by Civil Procedure Rules. Rule 7.9 as set out in 7.1 and 7.2 of the associated Practice Direction entitled Hire Purchase Claims:- a)     The agreement is dated 25 August 2022. And is between Moneybarn No1 Limited  and xxxxxxxxx under agreement  number xxxxxx. b)    The claimant was one of the original parties to the agreement. c)    The agreement is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. d)    The goods claimed Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi ( 200 PS) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200 cc (Sep2015} Registration No ^^^^^^^ Chassis number ***************** e)     The total price of the goods £19570 f)     The paid up sum £1206 5 g)    The unpaid balance of the total price £7505 (to include charges) h)    A default notice was sent to the defendant on 20th February 2024 by First class post i)      The date when the right to demand delivery of the goods accrued 14 March 2024 j)      The amount if any claimed as an alternative to delivery of the goods 7505 22 include charges 5.  At the date of service of the notice the instalments were £562.89 in arrears. 6. By reason of the Termination of the Agreement by the notice, defendant became liable to pay the sum of £7502 7. The date of maturity the agreement is 24th August 2027. 8. Further or alternative by reasons of  the Defendant breaches of the agreement by failing to pay the said instalments, the Defendant evinced an intention no longer to be bound by the Agreement and repudiated it by the said Notice the claimant accepted that repudiation 9. By reason of such repudiation the claimant has suffered loss and damage. Total amount payable £19570 Less sum paid or in arrears by the date of repudiation £12064 97 Balance £7505 (to include charges.) ( The claimant will give credit if necessary for the value of the vehicle if recovered.)  The claimant therefore claims 1.    An order for delivery up of the vehicle 2.    The MoneyClaim to be adjourned generally with liberty to restore,  Upon restoration of the MoneyClaim following return or loss of the vehicle. the Claimant will ensure the pre action protocol for debt claims is followed. 3.    Pursuant to s 90 (1)  of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. An order that the Claimant and/or its agents may enter any premises in which the vehicle is situated in order to recover the vehicle should it not be returned by the Defendant 4.    further or alternatively damages 5.    costs Statement of truth The Claimant believes that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true. The Claimant understands that the proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes or causes to be made a false statement in the document for verified by statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. I am duly Authorised by the Claimant to sign these Particulars of Claim signed Dated 17th of April 2024  What is the total value of the claim? 7502   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No   Never heard of this   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? n/a Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After  Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? In a garage  Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes  Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? n/a   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? They said sent but nor received   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? None seen   Why did you cease payments? Still Paying,   What was the date of your last payment? Yesterday  31st May 2024   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Yes on 12 Feb 2024   What you need to do now.   Can't scan, will do via another means as you cant have jpg  
    • Now that is an interesting article which adds afew perspective that I hadn't thought significant - but on reflection of the perspectives offered ... Now Starmer is no Blair, however 'blairite he may be perceived, but the Tories aren't tories and aren't even remotely liberal   The fast 'unannounced and unexpected election call from sunack may well be explained by the opinion linked that he hoped reform would be unprepared and effectively call a chunk of Farages largely empty bluster - making him look even more of a prat, leave scope for attacks on shabby reform candidates and mimimise core vote losses to reform - while throwing the 'middle ground' (relative) tories TO THE DOGS - and with the added bonus of likely pacifying his missu' desire to jogg off to sunny cal tout suite somewhat   thumb in the air - I expect about 140ish tory seats, but can hope for under a hundred Reform - got to admit the outside possibility of 1, maybe 2 seats with about 8% of the vote - but unlikely. I think projections of over 10% of the vote for reform is nudged and paid for speculation - but possible with the expected massive drives from Russian, Chinese and far right social media bot and troll prods targeting the gullible.
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train fines and wrong addresses


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I've been worrying about a situation that happened the other day.

 

I got a train from the west country to the midlands(the main part of my journey).

 

I had bought return tickets for this.

 

I had to change over and get a half hour long journey to another destination.

I only had a four to five minute change-over time to catch this train(from the same platform that i had just got off the last train onto.)

I did not have a ticket for this final part of the journey but was confident that i'd be able to get one on board as i have bought one from this station on the train many times with no problem.

 

On getting aboard the train, as soon as it started to leave i was approached by ticket collectors.

On asking how much the fare was I was told that i was not allowed to buy on the train and would be issued a fine.

I was not told the amount of the fine and was informed it would be by post.

 

I had nightmare images of it being hundreds of pounds and panicing gave not one but 3 false addresses

(the last was the house i previously lived in where i knew i would be able to collect the post as friends live there -- they accepted this address.)

 

I had not seen any signs detailing what the standard penalty is on the station or the train, despite the conductor claiming they are 'everywhere'.

 

I was read my rights for giving false addresses and told i would recieve a letter detailing what would happen 'in a few weeks'. I signed the notebook.

 

I did not receive any paperwork from the ticket person.

Now I am worried about extent of fine, conviction etc...

.would I have any success in appealing due to the fact i had intended to buy on train rather than dodge the fare

and i had valid tickets for the majority of my journey plus a very brief changeover train time,

or have I completely shot myself in the foot by giving false addresses?

(including the last place, which i moved out of a year ago)

:|

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Unfortunately you've done yourself no favours here and have dug yourself something of a rather large hole!

 

It wasn't a fine or a Penalty Fare you were issued, and the Train Operating Company (TOC) won't be issuing you one through the post directly. For a fine to be imposed you'll have to be convicted at a Magistrates' Court, which I'm afraid is quite likely in this case if the TOC decide to prosecute. You'll likely be prosecuted under Section 5.3(b) and 5.3© of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. The former relates to you only paying for part of your journey, with the intent to defraud the TOC of the cost of the remainder. The latter relates to the false details. The former offence depends of what can reasonably be proved to be honest, and will have been bottomed out during questioning under caution. Offences under RRA 1889 are recordable on the Police National Computer and tend to mean a heftier fine at Court (about £350 plus costs etc usually depending on means). If prosecuted under a railway Byelaw, it wont be recorded on the PNC and the fine will be a lot less. Either way you'll obtain a criminal record though.

 

You can't really do anything until the TOC write to you at one of your addresses, but when they do, give them all the info they request and express how sorry you are. I suggest offering to meet all their reasonable admin charges to remain out of court, as this could severely affect your future job prospects etc. Tell them it's the first time you've ever done such a stupid thing (assuming it was of course!) and you've truely learned your lesson. They don't have to accept this offer, but it'll save you a lot of grief on the long run if they do, I'm sure!

 

Unfortunately the initial correspondence could take several weeks to arrive (often around 8-weeks!), so don't panick if you don't receive anything, although it doesn;t help that the TOC has 3 addresses to potentially confuse with one another! One question though, did you give the final address so as to avoid further corresponce, as it too, by your own admission, is false, although you knoiw who lives there? Just seems rather strange to me.

 

To sum up; I believe you were cautioned, questioned and reported as the RPIs suspected that you might have committed offences. It's not a Penalty Fare matter and you were reported by them, hence the caution. The RPI will submit a report (form MG11) and it will be forwarded to the relevant Prosecutions Dept.

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Thanks Stigy, so will I receive a criminal record even if I manage to settle out of court? It is quite important as I work on a self-employed basis (for pretty much minimum wage as well- can this affect the fine?) in the legal system. I could be sacked if receive a criminal record from this and also will affect career prospects...all for a ticket that I was intending to buy in the first place!

Also is it standard practice for the conductors not to inform of the cost of the fine when they initially go to fine you. No figures were once mentioned during the whole incident. It was this that caused me to panic and supply the false details- if i had been told the standard fine is only £20 I wouldnt have paniced and got myself into more trouble.

The first two addresses I gave were variations on a place I lived at when I was younger, they worked out this was false. The third addressis a house I moved from a year ago but it is near my street and still have good friends there. My thinking was I wanted to receive the letter but have space to think at a distance removed, if that makes sense.

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Thanks Stigy, so will I receive a criminal record even if I manage to settle out of court? It is quite important as I work on a self-employed basis (for pretty much minimum wage as well- can this affect the fine?) in the legal system. I could be sacked if receive a criminal record from this and also will affect career prospects...all for a ticket that I was intending to buy in the first place!

Also is it standard practice for the conductors not to inform of the cost of the fine when they initially go to fine you. No figures were once mentioned during the whole incident. It was this that caused me to panic and supply the false details- if i had been told the standard fine is only £20 I wouldnt have paniced and got myself into more trouble.

The first two addresses I gave were variations on a place I lived at when I was younger, they worked out this was false. The third addressis a house I moved from a year ago but it is near my street and still have good friends there. My thinking was I wanted to receive the letter but have space to think at a distance removed, if that makes sense.

 

NO, you only get a criminal record if you are convicted of a criminal offence by a Court

 

You should not give details that you can be identified from in posting here, but it is important which train operating company (TOC) you were travelling with in order to dispel possible misunderstandings that you seem to have.

 

Firstly, not all TOCs have Penalty Fares schemes and secondly, any Penalty Fare is not just £20.00

 

Which train company were you travelling with and where were you travelling to and from? It will help determine how you might be dealt with and by whom.

 

A penalty fare is at least £20.00 and is the greater of that minimum or twice the single fare for the journey being made, so, if the single fare would have been more than a tenner, the penalty would be twice that.

 

If you were travelling on Cross Country there are NO penalty fare notices and it is likely you will have been reported for prosecution.

 

Given that you did not receive any paperwork, I assume that you have been reported for a similar process, whichever TOC you were travelling with.

 

When your friend receives the letter at your old address, the worst thing that you can do is to ignore it.

 

.

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Thanks Stigy, so will I receive a criminal record even if I manage to settle out of court? It is quite important as I work on a self-employed basis (for pretty much minimum wage as well- can this affect the fine?) in the legal system. I could be sacked if receive a criminal record from this and also will affect career prospects...all for a ticket that I was intending to buy in the first place!

Also is it standard practice for the conductors not to inform of the cost of the fine when they initially go to fine you. No figures were once mentioned during the whole incident. It was this that caused me to panic and supply the false details- if i had been told the standard fine is only £20 I wouldnt have paniced and got myself into more trouble.

The first two addresses I gave were variations on a place I lived at when I was younger, they worked out this was false. The third addressis a house I moved from a year ago but it is near my street and still have good friends there. My thinking was I wanted to receive the letter but have space to think at a distance removed, if that makes sense.

Firstly, No you won't receive a Criminal Record if you settle out of Court. This counts as the case being closed.

 

Secondly, you seem to be mistaken. As I have said, the RPI did not fine you, only the court can do that. I think you are mistakening a fine for a Penalty Fare anyway, although you were not Penalty Fared either. You were reported for the consideration of prosecuting you for offences. The reason no 'fine' levels were mentioned was because it was irrelevant as you were NOT Penalty Fared.

 

And finally, the level of the court fine should you be prosecuted does depend on your means. You will have to fill out a means form which states how much you earn, along with how much you spend etc. You need to fill it out accurately, especially if as you say, times are tough, as if this doesn't show, you could be fined a lot more!

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Whether or not an opportunity to settle out of Court is allowed is entirely up to the TOC.

 

Once you failed to pay the correct fare before travelling and then gave false details to the ticket inspector, you are very likely to be reported and the case listed for prosecution. By giving false details you provided rail staff with good cause to report you for intending to avoid payment. By repeating that on more than one occasion you compounded this, making the likelihood of prosecution much more likely.

 

You can only try to avoid this outcome by being entirely honest in dealing with any correspondence and in answering, you can only ask the TOC to consider allowing an out of Court resolution. The final decision is theirs.

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The journey was only £5 ticket, seems extreme to potentially ruin my livelihood for that! Is there not any grounds for appeal if it goes to court? i know the false addresses was a stupid impulsive action but does the fact that it was a short journey, there was only a brief train time change-over, I intended to pay from the outset and had a ticket for the first large part of my journey count as any kind of mitigation?

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'Mitigation' are any factors which will make the 'crime' seem less bad. If you try to think like a Magistrate, or 'the man on the Clapham omnibus', and look at what you think is mitigation, do those things make it less bad or more bad?

 

The warning for anyone trying to reduce the impact of being found guilty, or pleading guilty, is that if your mitigation varies enormously from the truth, the prosecutor, and in some circumstances, the defence counsel, may leap to his or her feet and tell the Court that they are being misled.

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Whether it is 'extreme' to potentially ruin lives/careers and so on over a £5.00 fare, you need to remember that it is the actions of 'the offender' that are being examined, not the choices of the prosecuting authority.

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The journey was only £5 ticket, seems extreme to potentially ruin my livelihood for that! Is there not any grounds for appeal if it goes to court? i know the false addresses was a stupid impulsive action but does the fact that it was a short journey, there was only a brief train time change-over, I intended to pay from the outset and had a ticket for the first large part of my journey count as any kind of mitigation?

 

Hello there. I don't know what the others think, as I have no experience of court, but the argument over a fiver could work against you. A lay person like myself [and I believe magistrates are lay people] might argue that it it's not much money, you should have paid it.

 

Also, it is the passenger's responsibility to seek out a ticket inspector on the train and buy a valid ticket if they don't have one.

 

My best, HB

Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Hello there. I don't know what the others think, as I have no experience of court, but the argument over a fiver could work against you. A lay person like myself [and I believe magistrates are lay people] might argue that it it's not much money, you should have paid it.

 

Also, it is the passenger's responsibility to seek out a ticket inspector on the train and buy a valid ticket if they don't have one.

 

My best, HB

Absolutely. Also, all these £5 fares add up! I've reported people for £1.90 fares and succeded quite easily at court!

 

AvAn, you can always appeal the Magistrates' decision, but I believe the appeal will be heard by the Crown...

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I dont think its about the amount of the fare avoided, its to show that people who 'steal' journeys will be dealt with robustly.

There is an attitude at the moment that trivial things should be ignored, in my experience if you can nip minor offences in the bud they wont grow into serious offending.

Im all in favour of zero tolerance for minor offences like speeding, shoplifting, public order, criminal damage & fare evasion, it will set the boundaries that parents & teachers fail to give young people.

There are a lot of victims of crime & offenders in jail that wouldnt be there if someone had just said 'No, you cant do that'.

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RE: SRPO's reply_

we truely are living in a Tory country arent we if you class this 'crime' as the same as criminal damage etc and I am not a 'young person who needs boundaries'. The fact is that on this particular journey there has previously seemingly been a policy for years where conductors go round the train selling tickets from a small machine to those who do not have one, not once have they previously said 'you should have bought one at the station' etc. Why should I be criminalised due to the double standards of the railways? ( I hasten to add that it is the exact same rail company that usually dish out tickets on board that have done this.) If you see things in black and white this much then you have a very simplistic view of the law and have led an extremely sheltered existence.

I was fully intending to pay and asked the conductor for a ticket as they approached me as soon as the train left the station, i had the money there, I would have paid a penalty fare etc...I came here for advice (and granted have received it from some helpful people) not ridiculous and patronising self-righteous put-downs

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Ladies, gents, are we at risk of 'personalising' this thread?

 

Things are never 'black and white'. 'Fare dodging' must be considered, if in the same spectrum, lesser than criminal damage, the prosecution of fare dodging is 'summary only', shoplifting (theft) is 'triable either way'. That is to say, fare dodging is only heard in the Magistrates Court, theft can be heard in either 'Mags' or the Crown Court.

 

Under the old rules of whether a country is socialist or not, it is normally considered that if a 'state' spends more than 25% of GDP, the country is socialist, and my own view of world history is that socialist countries are the ones where petty crimes are punished most severely. That is just a personal view.

 

However, minor crime is often an indicator of a propensity to commit crime generally. (often, not always) As such, it may well be that paying attention to minor crime is very sensible. In one of my local Courts yesterday was a man I know well. He was there for 'bunking' a £2.10 fare. He had in his possesion at the time property which was probably shoplifted, and was 'committing offences whilst on bail'. I know him well, the Court is very familiar with him, and whilst he was there, a passing policeman asked me 'what is he here for?' as he too knows him well. It may well be that he has his liberty removed as a result of a prosecution by the local railway whilst currently on a 'suspended sentence' for theft and also on bail for another theft. It follows that the areas he lives and steals (incidentally, they are the same) will be a better place without him.

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I was fully intending to pay and asked the conductor for a ticket as they approached me as soon as the train left the station, i had the money there, I would have paid a penalty fare etc...I came here for advice (and granted have received it from some helpful people) not ridiculous and patronising self-righteous put-downs

 

I hope that you don't see this as a 'put-down', it isn't mean to be, it is an explanation of why a prosecution would be deemed appropriate

 

You say that you fully intended to pay the fare, but your action in repeatedly giving false details suggests otherwise. In this case as in virtually all others, the amount of the fare is irrelevant.

 

It is on the evidence of your action that the prosecutor's decision is most likely to be made.

 

.

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AvAN- Curious as to why, if you bought return tickets for 'the main' part of the journey before travelling, why not just buy them point-to-point, for the whole journey, which if nothing else may have worked out cheaper?

 

All the best.

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and then ask yourself, if there had been no inspector, would your fare have been paid?

Views expressed in this forum by me are my own personal opinion and you take it on face value! I make any comments to the best of my knowledge but you take my advice at your own risk.

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The only 'criminalising' to have been 'done' here is by the OP, who has potentially raised the stakes from a (Civil Matter) Penalty Fare to a criminal conviction for giving false details.

 

Legislation is by its nature, black and white. It is for the courts to apply the (broader) interpretation. The OP will quite possibly have the opportunity to witness this process in action.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? :razz:

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Nice, Maxwell- more subtle patronising. I have seen court processes in action many times and not from the obvious stand point that you are assuming. I take point with the 'personalising' Wriggler but it seems you are doing exactly that with your unhelpful anecdote- how does this relate to my situation in any way? if anything it should support it- the fact that you list a load of assumptions about a guy the courts know 'only too well' means that I should be at least considered for not possessing stolen goods,not being known in a bad way to the courts, willingly wanting to buy a goddamn ticket etc.....

 

re:Grotesque- I was travelling a journey I often do and always buy tickets for. My friend was going to pick me up from the station i normally get off at but couldnt due to work so I had a quick changeover on the next platform on a journey where prior to this the ticket guys always dished em out on the train with no problem(and for those who are claiming it is a dodged journey etc I have taken this journey many times,never had a 'free' ride, always paid on the train, always had a conductor give tickets). I instantly offered to pay and was rebutted , fined etc....I concede that the false addresses part is where i paniced and went wrong but for various self-righteous dickheads to try and slot me in a bracket with various people they consider habitual offenders/**** is ridiculous. These people are the same kind of sheep that brought Hitler to power. In my eyes the offence was the false addresses which i obviously regret whole-heartedly, can people leave their Daily Mail judgements to themselves. If anyone has anything helpful to say rather than judgements on class/'crime' etc it would be appreciated, the fact is it is me asking for insight, not judgement(again, apologies if this is 'personalising')

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Nice, Maxwell- more subtle patronising. I have seen court processes in action many times and not from the obvious stand point that you are assuming. etc etc

 

re:Grotesque- I was travelling a journey I often do and always buy tickets for. My friend was going to pick me up from the station i normally get off at but couldnt due to work so I had a quick changeover on the next platform on a journey where prior to this the ticket guys always dished em out on the train with no problem(and for those who are claiming it is a dodged journey etc I have taken this journey many times,never had a 'free' ride, always paid on the train, always had a conductor give tickets). I instantly offered to pay and was rebutted , fined etc....I concede that the false addresses part is where i paniced and went wrong but for various self-righteous dickheads to try and slot me in a bracket with various people they consider habitual offenders/**** is ridiculous. These people are the same kind of sheep that brought Hitler to power. In my eyes the offence was the false addresses which i obviously regret whole-heartedly, can people leave their Daily Mail judgements to themselves. If anyone has anything helpful to say rather than judgements on class/'crime' etc it would be appreciated, the fact is it is me asking for insight, not judgement(again, apologies if this is 'personalising')

 

 

Invoking selective morality tailored to perceived circumstances is a common reaction to 'being found out'. There is nothing Daily Mailesque nor even 'Tory' in the responses from those who witness these behaviours on a daily basis; more a weary cynicism. It appears that your actions may land you in court and no amount of wriggling on the hook will change that. And whilst we are on the subject of personalising, do you not think that comments ref Hitler and 'dickheads' rather work against your argument?

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? :razz:

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I'm pleased that you recognise the false addresses issue, and leaving all the other comparisons and observation aside for a moment, you will need to recognise that it is this specific element that makes the matter so much more serious.

 

So much so, that the law makes the ultimate penalty for conviction for this particular offence imprisonable. I will immediately qualify this comment by saying that you shouldn't be alarmed. A fine is the usual penalty.

 

The custody option is extremely rarely applied and normally only in the cases of recidivist offenders so I wouldn't be concerned by that fact, but I hope that it illustrates why the matter is looked on in the manner that prevails.

 

How can a traveller who hasn't paid and who then gives a false name and address expect a Magistrate to believe that he didn't intend not to pay? Doing so repeatedly just makes it all the more obvious.

 

If the rail inspector had accepted the false name and address without question, how would the traveller be contacted?

 

.

Edited by Old-CodJA
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Thanks Codja, and apologies for offence caused to anyone from my rant, just it's stressing me out a bit (and yes, I definitely would not use the 'rant' approach in court). So my best bet is to write to the TOC when I get the letter then? What about phoning them also, is that reccomended? Is there a rough range that can be indicated of what the fine would be(I think Stigy said around £350...) as i've heard it can be up to a grand.

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Thanks Codja, and apologies for offence caused to anyone from my rant, just it's stressing me out a bit (and yes, I definitely would not use the 'rant' approach in court). So my best bet is to write to the TOC when I get the letter then? What about phoning them also, is that reccomended? Is there a rough range that can be indicated of what the fine would be(I think Stigy said around £350...) as i've heard it can be up to a grand.

 

The maximum fine for conviction on a first offence is £1000, BUT that is never the case in my experience

 

Generally, the Magistrates will impose a fine of around the average weekly income for a person in full time employment and that is assessed at £350.00.

 

If you plead guilty at the earliest opportunity and apologise, showing that you are genuinely remorseful, the Magistrates will give credit for that and reduce the fine accordingly. It is not possible to be specific, but the fine could be reduced to around £150 (it could be more or less depending on the Court) and you may be ordered to pay all or part of the prosecution costs, which are usually between £100.00 and £200.00.

 

There would also be a 'victim surcharge' imposed by the government this is a fixed charge of £15.00 applied to anyone fined by a Court. You would be likely to be ordered to pay compensation of the fare avoided.

 

In my experience it is always best to put your request to 'settle out of Court' in writing. You may try telephoning, but it is always best to write promptly when the TOC letter arrives and ensure that your apology and request is on file.

 

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