Looks like I'm gonna have to take Vodafone to court

[silverfox1961]

I have been dealing with a Vodafone/Fredericksons issue for my daughter (with her authorisation)

 

I sent VF a SAR on 18/01/2011

Reply dated 31/01/2011. All they sent were screenshots of account history, nothing else.

Sent letter dated 9/01/2011 asking for the rest

Sent another letter dated 10/03/2011 giving them 7 days to comply

Letter dated 14/03/2011 querying the letter dated 9/02/2011 saying they hadn't received (yes they did-I have the proof)

Sent another letter back on 17/03/2011 giving them a further 7 days to comply

 

Nothing back, no communication-nothing-nada-zip:evil:

 

I will be doing a LBA later on giving them a last chance.

 

My query though. If I end up taking them to court, will it have to be in my daughters name or mine? Can I act on her behalf in court?

I'll find out which court forms I need nearer the time

[silverfox1961]

double post

[silverfox1961]

Well I never got round to sending the LBA. Glad I didn't send it now as I got some more stuff through the post this morning. Just need to reconcile the data against what I already have. VFs Code sheet runs to 41 pages

 

They are still refusing to supply a copy of the contract saying it is outside the scope of the DPA 1998 and the CCA 1974 so I need to work out another way to get sight of it. They say it is stored off site (which is fair enough) so if they were to supply the address of where it is stored, I would be prepared to visit and get a view of it.

 

What has come to light is that VF never sent any letters until after the account was terminated. How can VF default an account without giving the customer adequate notice to rectify the default.

[pmj91]

Why on earth is a company able to refuse to supply you with a copy of the contract? How can that in any sense be fair when the contract is what sets the rights of both parties - if you can't see it, how can you comply by it?

[2Grumpy]

I'm sure they could send an unsigned copy of what the contract without the personal details - you are only interested in the t&cs

[silverfox1961]

They have told me I can go on to the website to see terms and conditions however, after a good look around I can only find T's&C's going back to 2009 and my daughter initially took out the contract in 2006 and upgraded in 2008.

My biggest beef is about the default. No DN was sent-ever. They just disconnected with no notice. My daughter was cr*p at paying on time but still they should have given fair notice that this would happen if the bill wasn't paid on time.

[2Grumpy]

I agree

 

Vodaphone seem particularly bad at this. Does the SAR show that they didn't try to contact before registering the default? I am sure that is contrary to the ICO guidance.

 

Vodaphone are also pretty good at saying that the info is correct & won't be removed. The threads in the CRA forum look promising - the original party has right to continue processing personal information after the contract has been terminated & the CRA is acting as the agent of the original provider

[silverfox1961]

It's very hard to work out exactly what means what on the screenshots but it is perfectly clear that they disconnected on 20/08/2008 with absolutely no written contact before that. I'm not saying two wrongs don't make a right but VF should have let her know what would happen if she didn't pay-they didn't.

 

I would like to know what regulations they use to default anyone. If they are not covered by the CCA 1974 then what?

 

There is also the issue of her paying the full contract rate. If her contract was just line rental then I can accept that but where there are features involved (free calls/texts) which won't be provided after the contract is cancelled, should she be charged for them. It's a bit like money for old rope. Make em pay the full bill but don't provide the service. Sour grapes maybe but it just seems wrong to me

[Human Writes]

I would like to know what regulations they use to default anyone. If they are not covered by the CCA 1974 then what?

 

There are no regulations specific to mobile phone contracts and defaults as far as I'm aware. The DPA would apply as it does to all processing of data.

 

Your daughter would have agreed that Voda could record information with 3rd parties such as CRAs about her payment performance under the terms of the contract, when she entered into it. Voda then recorded this information on your daughter's credit file in accordance with this contact. The dispute is a contractural one.

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Well I never got round to sending the LBA. Glad I didn't send it now as I got some more stuff through the post this morning. Just need to reconcile the data against what I already have. VFs Code sheet runs to 41 pages

 

They are still refusing to supply a copy of the contract saying it is outside the scope of the DPA 1998 and the CCA 1974 so I need to work out another way to get sight of it. They say it is stored off site (which is fair enough) so if they were to supply the address of where it is stored, I would be prepared to visit and get a view of it.

 

What has come to light is that VF never sent any letters until after the account was terminated. How can VF default an account without giving the customer adequate notice to rectify the default.

 

They have told me I can go on to the website to see terms and conditions however, after a good look around I can only find T's&C's going back to 2009 and my daughter initially took out the contract in 2006 and upgraded in 2008.

My biggest beef is about the default. No DN was sent-ever. They just disconnected with no notice. My daughter was cr*p at paying on time but still they should have given fair notice that this would happen if the bill wasn't paid on time.

 

Hi silverfox,

 

Without checking the airtime account in question it's difficult for me to comment further on this.

 

However, I'll take a look at this and will get in touch with you as soon as I can.

In regard to obtaining a copy of the airtime service agreement I'll also follow this up internally and get back to you once I have an update.

 

It's very hard to work out exactly what means what on the screenshots but it is perfectly clear that they disconnected on 20/08/2008 with absolutely no written contact before that. I'm not saying two wrongs don't make a right but VF should have let her know what would happen if she didn't pay-they didn't.

 

I would like to know what regulations they use to default anyone. If they are not covered by the CCA 1974 then what?

 

There is also the issue of her paying the full contract rate. If her contract was just line rental then I can accept that but where there are features involved (free calls/texts) which won't be provided after the contract is cancelled, should she be charged for them. It's a bit like money for old rope. Make em pay the full bill but don't provide the service. Sour grapes maybe but it just seems wrong to me

 

When any airtime account is cancelled prior to the minimum contractual commitment has been fulfilled and early cancellation fee will be billed to the customer's next monthly bill. This is calculated at the agreed monthly line rental rate minus the VAT and multiplied by the number of months remaining.

 

I'll also check this to make sure it's been calculated correctly.

 

Thanks,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

[2Grumpy]

When any airtime account is cancelled prior to the minimum contractual commitment has been fulfilled and early cancellation fee will be billed to the customer's next monthly bill. This is calculated at the agreed monthly line rental rate minus the VAT and multiplied by the number of months remaining.

 

Typical - don't supply the service but charge for it as though it had been supplied.

 

If a comms company is going to recover the money, why can't they continue to supply the service?

Likewise if they are going to cut you off, are they entitled to charge as if they had provided the service?

 

This doesn't represent their actual losses. Is this why mobile cos sell debts rather than litigate?

 

This might be in the terms and conditions, but are they fair (ie not contrary to unfair trading legislation) and lawful?

[Human Writes]

Typical - don't supply the service but charge for it as though it had been supplied.

 

If a comms company is going to recover the money, why can't they continue to supply the service?

Likewise if they are going to cut you off, are they entitled to charge as if they had provided the service?

 

This doesn't represent their actual losses. Is this why mobile cos sell debts rather than litigate?

 

This might be in the terms and conditions, but are they fair (ie not contrary to unfair trading legislation) and lawful?

 

In answer to your questions, they can't continue to supply the service because the person they have cut off has demonstrated either an unwillingness or inability to pay their bills, in which case it is perfectly reasonable to prevent them from accessing the network and increasing the charges they owe until such time as they do pay their bills.

 

 

Whether they can continue to charge if the person they have cut off no longer able to pay their bills would depend on the wording of the contract, in most cases I'd imagine though it will state that if the customer breaches the terms of the contract they are liable for the remaining months.

 

I've commented on actual losses before, if you of your own free will enter into a contract with a phone company for 18 months agreeing to pay a specific amount per month, then you default on the contract after six months, the network have actually lost the other twelve months you agreed to pay for, it is an actual and a recoverable loss.

 

IMO they sell debts because the debt recovery process is cheaper than litigation, they don't want to pay the solicitors and court fees required to chase these debts through the courts except in the case of large debts.

 

Whether or not the contract terms are fair would be something only a court could decide, you could try to advance the argument that the contract terms are unfair in accordance with the UTCCR before a Small Claims Court, however, you'd be doing so against the Legal Department of a multinational company and I'd imagine Voda don't hire idiots for legal counsel - it'd be very much an uphill struggle. In any case I'm not all that certain that the contract terms are unfair, so I'm not certain you could convince a judge of that.

[silverfox1961]

The issue with the costs are that the contract is for line rental with the extras thrown in for 'free' (phone, calls, texts etc.) however, these costs are factored into the line rental (you don't get anything for free)

 

I will also be taking VF to task over their 'administration fee' In the terms and conditions, VF state they will apply a reasonable admin fee. Does 15% or £100 (max) seem a 'reasoanable' fee. My daughter was charged around £95 as an admin fee. This (to me) is an unfair term as they are not quantifying their costs, just slapping on the charge irrespective of how much work has gone into admin

[2Grumpy]

In answer to your questions, they can't continue to supply the service because the person they have cut off has demonstrated either an unwillingness or inability to pay their bills, in which case it is perfectly reasonable to prevent them from accessing the network and increasing the charges they owe until such time as they do pay their bills.

 

 

Whether they can continue to charge if the person they have cut off no longer able to pay their bills would depend on the wording of the contract, in most cases I'd imagine though it will state that if the customer breaches the terms of the contract they are liable for the remaining months.

 

I've commented on actual losses before, if you of your own free will enter into a contract with a phone company for 18 months agreeing to pay a specific amount per month, then you default on the contract after six months, the network have actually lost the other twelve months you agreed to pay for, it is an actual and a recoverable loss.

 

IMO they sell debts because the debt recovery process is cheaper than litigation, they don't want to pay the solicitors and court fees required to chase these debts through the courts except in the case of large debts.

 

Whether or not the contract terms are fair would be something only a court could decide, you could try to advance the argument that the contract terms are unfair in accordance with the UTCCR before a Small Claims Court, however, you'd be doing so against the Legal Department of a multinational company and I'd imagine Voda don't hire idiots for legal counsel - it'd be very much an uphill struggle. In any case I'm not all that certain that the contract terms are unfair, so I'm not certain you could convince a judge of that.

 

They will save on network capacity (not from an individual but the cumulative effect from all in this position) and not paying termination charges, but I agree that you would have an up-hill struggle, especially with the phone company seeing a large slice of income disappearing. I suspect that the company might prefer to settle or negotiate before it got to court though, even though it might win, rather than have the issiues aired in public, especially if it's not for an enormous amount.

 

I thought contracts were generally inclusive of calls phone & line, not paying for line rental & free everything else (no charge for not exceeding what has been paid for)

[silverfox1961]

Related thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?277251-Vodafone-cancelled-account-no-notice

 

Got an answering machine message and email from VF today saying they would like to speak to me. Not this time I'm afraid. Everything is going to be done via Recorded Delivery. Nothing against Lee or the team as they do a good job here.

 

Posting VF another letter tomorrow as they are still prevaricating over supplying data. This will be my last one to the Data Team and if they fail to supply what I ask for, I may just file an order for disclosure (the agreements)

There is also an issue with one of the calls noted on the account history. When my daughter rang VF, she (apparently) was told that she would have to pay a reconnection charge for 2 numbers?? She only had one phone

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi Silverfox,

 

Thanks for updating your thread to confirm the follow up contact attempted yesterday.

 

Whilst I wouldn't wish to dissuade you from writing to us again I'm more than happy to assist you further with this.

 

If you'd like me to take a closer look at things just let me know.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

[PaulW922]

I have been dealing with a Vodafone/Fredericksons issue for my daughter (with her authorisation)

 

I sent VF a SAR on 18/01/2011

Reply dated 31/01/2011. All they sent were screenshots of account history, nothing else.

Sent letter dated 9/01/2011 asking for the rest

Sent another letter dated 10/03/2011 giving them 7 days to comply

Letter dated 14/03/2011 querying the letter dated 9/02/2011 saying they hadn't received (yes they did-I have the proof)

Sent another letter back on 17/03/2011 giving them a further 7 days to comply

 

Nothing back, no communication-nothing-nada-zip:evil:

 

I will be doing a LBA later on giving them a last chance.

 

My query though. If I end up taking them to court, will it have to be in my daughters name or mine? Can I act on her behalf in court?

I'll find out which court forms I need nearer the time

 

 

 

Hi Silverfox - to answer your original questions:-

 

The court claim needs to be in your daughters name. You may prepare it for her but it remains her application.

 

If it gets as far as a hearing then, assuming you are not a solicitor yourself, you can ask the court for permission to help her as a litigation friend (sometimes referred to as a MacKenzie advisor after the Judge who first allowed this in a criminal case). it is at the court's discretion but will almost certainly be ok as long as you are not acting as a witness for her too - they may not like that.

 

Could I ask what you are intending to sue for? You say that Vodafone is chasing her for an os debt - what would your claim be for?

[silverfox1961]

Hi Paul,

What I was intending to do is file for disclosure (in my daughters name) of the documents they are refusing to give me (agreement(s) and T's&C's from inception which I cannot find online)

 

They have included only a summary of the statements, not a full breakdown as some of the bills were over £100. My daughter cannot remember what she signed up for (the joys of M.E) and I want to see what she did sign for and what extras were included then see if she was charged for anything which should have been part of the package.

 

They have not included a breakdown of how their 'administration' fee is calculated. Charging a flat fee of 15% or £100 (whichever is the lower) seems to me unjust. Their T's&C's state a 'reasonable' fee will be charged but don't go into details.

 

Their is a couple of more things I have noticed but I can't go into details here as I don't want to give VF a heads up until I either start a formal complaint or get legal on their a**

[PaulW922]

I reckon you'll get that with a bit of pressure!

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi Paul,

What I was intending to do is file for disclosure (in my daughters name) of the documents they are refusing to give me (agreement(s) and T's&C's from inception which I cannot find online)

 

They have included only a summary of the statements, not a full breakdown as some of the bills were over £100. My daughter cannot remember what she signed up for (the joys of M.E) and I want to see what she did sign for and what extras were included then see if she was charged for anything which should have been part of the package.

 

They have not included a breakdown of how their 'administration' fee is calculated. Charging a flat fee of 15% or £100 (whichever is the lower) seems to me unjust. Their T's&C's state a 'reasonable' fee will be charged but don't go into details.

 

Their is a couple of more things I have noticed but I can't go into details here as I don't want to give VF a heads up until I either start a formal complaint or get legal on their a**

 

Hi Silverfox,

 

As you know, I'm happy to liaise with the relevant departments in regard to the paperwork sides of things to see what can be done here. Additionally, I'd be able to assist with any billing concerns - can I ask if your letter details which bills you're looking for copies of?

 

In regard to the administration fee I'd say that any balance breakdown or copy bills which we provide won't include this as this is only added once an account is referred to a DCA, As you'll appreciate I wouldn't be appropriate for me to comment further on this publicly but if you'd like to discuss this further just let me know.

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

 

 

[silverfox1961]

Just another update on this.

I sent the Data Protection team another letter on 27th April and again this has gone unanswered so this morning I have drafted a Formal Complaint which will go in the post tomorrow. It seems very strange that in the two letters that have asked for very specific information, both have gone unanswered. The first time I prompted them, they supplied some data but this time, no response at all and I'm not prompting them again.

Is this obstruction or is it poor staff management. It remains to be seen.

[Lee Vodafone Company Rep]

Hi silverfox,

 

Thanks for the update here although admittedly not with the news I was hoping for.

 

As I'm sure you can understand I don't like reading about instances where customers experience difficulties with us but I am always happy to assist where possible.

 

Please be assured that I'm equally happy to help you out further with this and whilst I usually deal with customers either via phone or email if you'd prefer to correspondence via letter then I'm happy to do this.

 

As such, would you be able to send me a copy of your previous two letters so I can review this case further and I'll come back to you as soon as possible?

 

Kind regards,

 

Lee

 

Web Relations Team

 

Vodafone UK

[silverfox1961]

Another update

Got a Recorded Delivery letter today from VF

They have included the two contracts my daughter had. One for mobile broadband and one for the phone. I had forgotten she had a mobile dongle which explains the two phone numbers. It does make you think though. If the complaints team can get the contracts, why couldn't the DPA team?

The mobile broadband account was for 18 months and the phone was for 21 months and of course I cannot find any historic price plans for a 21 month contract

 

They also included 4 statements from when she got into difficulty and from a cursory look over, they seem ok. It looks like my daughter made calls to 0800 and 0844/5 numbers that were not covered in the included minutes.

 

They have stated that they don't have copies of the phone call recordings and I have no way of proving otherwise so I will have to accept that.

 

Now the issues

1 In the letter, they state a default notice was sent out on 21/09/08 and according to their screenshots they disconnected on 28/08/08. Methinks something is wrong there. There is also the issue of her statement dated 18/08/08 which shows the account as cancelled.

Do Vodafone have two different systems for recording account info as there is nothing on her account screenshots that show a default was issued. The only contact was when my daughter rang them on 16/09/08 and of course they don't have the recordings so no-one can say what was or was not said.

 

Either way, it looks like VF terminated the account long before the 'alleged' default notice was sent out.

 

2 The complaint response totally ignored my question of their 'Administration' fee. I asked for a full breakdown and they have not responded. If they are not prepared to do that, what do they have to hide.

 

Oh well, another letter going back

[philharg]

Silverfox it seems to me that they must run two systems, or at least not bother to read into any accounts. I managed to have a default processed against me when my account information didn't even contain a mobile phone number!

[silverfox1961]

Silverfox it seems to me that they must run two systems, or at least not bother to read into any accounts. I managed to have a default processed against me when my account information didn't even contain a mobile phone number!

 

Yes, I did read your thread with utter incredulity. If it was me in your shoes, I would be winging my way to my nearest courtroom.