Magistrates court for unpaid council tax.

[bunny64]

I had an interesting time at court yesterday.I was bailed to appear for a review of my financial situation with a view to my comittal to prison for unpaid council tax.The amounts go back to 2007 when I worked part time and medway council messed up my benefit claim.I have had endless visits from bailiffs and have posted about them before.However yesterday as I am unemployed and caring for my ill partner on a very low income the magistrates remitted part of the debt and wouldnt let council claim court fees.the warrant officer from the council wanted them to give me a suspended prison sentance against the remaining debt,but the magistrates legal advisor disagreed and said that wasnt legal.They are still arguing about it now!I ended up without a suspended sentance-a result for me but I wonder how many people have had a remittal then given a suspended sentance for the remaining debt?If they have it is apparently against the law.Does anyone know about this or experienced similar?

[jimbo45]

Hi there

If you don't have any money you can't pay --end of.

 

Debtors Prisons ended around 1800 so whatever the actual Law says the Magistrate was obviously doing what was sensible.

 

After all what is the point in a Prison sentence if you CAN'T pay. In any case Prisons are really meant to be used for CRIMINALS -- pursuing an unemployed person for unpaid Council Tax is just IDIOTIC and won't result in ANY BENEFIT TO ANYONE if you DO go to prison--

 

1) The Council will have spent a lot of money and STILL don't get their back tax.

2) The Prison Service is overloaded and has to find a suitable place for you.

3) It costs MORE money per week to keep a person in Prison than to put them up at London's Hyde Park's Inn on the Park.

4) Chances are when you come out the Council would have to spend MORE money on re-housing you.

 

A totally 100% NO WIN situation for the Council. Just be glad that the magistrate did the sensible thing and I doubt whether the Council would even THINK of appealing this.

 

Cheers

jimbo

[outlawla]

From the numerous minutes I've read from various council meetings, it is clear that our local authorities typically spit their dummies out over courts not sending enough alleged C.T debtors to prison.

 

It seems that the low number of committals to prison over C.T issues is down to the courts; if it were down to our councils half the UK population would be behind bars.

 

P.S

 

The reason prison costs don't enter into the equation as far as the councils are concerned is because they're more interested in C.T collection rates as a percentage. They are prepared to waste £millions of tax payers money to add a 0.001% onto their published figures.

[bunny64]

Thanks for your replies which I agree with of course.My point is,the magistrates wanted to remit part of debt but council wanted to attach a suspended custodial sentence for the remainder,the legal advisor to Magistrates said she did not believe they could do that under council tax legislation.She took advice from a higher authority and they agreed.Therefore I did not receive a suspended sentence for remaining debt and agreed a payment plan.But how many people have had a remittal and got a suspended sentence for remaining debt?Medway Council's warrant officer said that is what they always do and was furious that they would not impose suspended sentance for rest of debt.It would appear they cannot do that and are therefore not following legislation?

[bunny64]

I have just had my car clamped by whyte and co even though I went to magistrates court and agreed tp pay £5 a week.I do not know if this is the same debt or another one that has appeared.I do not own the car.it is a motability car for my son on their hire purchase scheme.Any advice on what to do?

[hallowitch]

I have just had my car clamped by whyte and co even though I went to magistrates court and agreed tp pay £5 a week.I do not know if this is the same debt or another one that has appeared.I do not own the car.it is a motability car for my son on their hire purchase scheme.Any advice on what to do?

 

get on to the council and your MP now and inform them that a bailiff has clamped a car that does not belong to you

[bunny64]

I have just spoken to the council and they wont take the debt back and said I have to negotiate with the bailiffs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

have just spoken to the council and thet wont take the debt back and say I have to negotiate with the bailiffs???

[hallowitch]

this is nothing to do with taking the debt back

 

your bailiff has clamped a car that does not belong to you your council are responsible for this they must inform swifts to remove the clamp

 

phone your MP now

 

I notice you have had lost of problems with this council

 

I worked part time and medway council messed up my benefit claim (why don't you SAR the council could be the best £10 you ever spent )

[hallowitch]

I suggest you get in touch with him now

 

The Leader of the Council is Councillor Rodney Chambers

Correspondence Address:

For Council matters:

Gun Wharf, Dock Road

Chatham

Kent

ME4 4TR

Phone: PA (Rita Mason) 01634 332514

Email: [email protected]

Home Address:

[caledfwlch]

I thought the Magistrates could only issue a prison sentence/suspended for people who refuse to pay, not can't pay, as long as you agree a repayment plan?

[bunny64]

Igt would appear the law is an ass and the council do what they like.Today they have taken away my partners car which was sorn because he is ill.Didnt put log book in his name cos he couldnt drive it.Will be auctioned and wont even cover debt.Is a catch 22.Was taken to court over 2008 and 2009 then they sprang 2010 on me.I only worked until july and lost my job because of my partners illness.The debt went from £400 to £1200.Is wrong.I have contacted the MP but have no faith in this government so wont hold my breath.have never refused to pay council tax just cant afford to!

[ploddertom]

If the vehicle is on HP from Motability whose name is it in? Have you advised both Bailiffs & Council the vehicle is subject to finance - you may have to provide copies of the agreement? How long does the agreement have left to run? Although SORN'd did you leave the old tax disc visible and was it a fee one that showed the taxation class as disabled? Even though off road were any Blue badges left on the dash - this should have given the Bailiff a warning about the vehicle's use?

 

It certainly appears that they may have jumped the gun by not doing a DVLA/HPI check.

 

PT

[bunny64]

I had 2 cars,one on hp via motability which they couldnt take.The other one which was paid up and was sorn is the one they took.The old tax disc did have disabled class and although I originally gave it to my partner was still registered to me.Was sorn'd because he is too ill to drive it.They will sell it at auction because I don't have £1200 and it won't cover the debt so the bailiffs will be back.Complete catch 22.We did our best to stop them taking it with the help of our neighbours but the bailiffs won again!

[ploddertom]

Goods if removed to auction must:

1 - cover all Bailiff fees

2 - cover all removal & storage fees

3 - cover the costs of the auction

4 - cover the Auctioneers costs

5 - pay a proportion of the debt owing

6 - if a surplus is made this must be returned to you

As your car is subject to a Bailiff removal this will reflect in the price obtained - usually because no keys or V5 - and will be typically very low. The Bailiff if you owe some £1.4k therefore should have levied on goods to a value of approx £15k - yes 10% is approx the norm.

 

As you say your vehicle is perhaps only worth a couple of hundred at the most it may only be lucky to acheive £50 at auction. Therefore there is a case the Bailiff has only made a levy to make a financial gain for himself and his Company - and hopes you do not know this. Initially you must challenge the levy by writing to them - send initially by email with a letter in the post to follow. The chances are they will argue it is correct and refuse to remove the levy and all associated charges.

 

As you are aggrieved by the levy you may then file a Regulation 46 Complaint to the local Magistrates Court where you then name the Council as defendant - things then tend to happen pretty quick after this.

 

PT

ps - the figures alluded to are from a post I made in another thread

[bunny64]

Thanks for that,v interesting.The delightful Mr Foxley from Whyte & Co told me if the car didnt raise enough at auction then he would be back.I have never let them in my house so they have never been able to raise a levy on goods in the house.They do have the key to the car by the way,saw no point in keeping it.My car would have been worth about £1800 by private sale but obviously different at auction.I will challenge the levy as you suggested.I have asked my mp Tracey Crouch for assistance but don't know if they can do anything.I only have 5 days to raise the money before the car is auctioned so the time scale not on my side.

[brassnecked]

Thanks for that,v interesting.The delightful Mr Foxley from Whyte & Co told me if the car didnt raise enough at auction then he would be back.I have never let them in my house so they have never been able to raise a levy on goods in the house.They do have the key to the car by the way,saw no point in keeping it.My car would have been worth about £1800 by private sale but obviously different at auction.I will challenge the levy as you suggested.I have asked my mp Tracey Crouch for assistance but don't know if they can do anything.I only have 5 days to raise the money before the car is auctioned so the time scale not on my side.

 

Do you have a recording or anything in writing to the effect he wiil be back if the car raises an insufficient amount? If so this is prima facie evidence of a levy soley for his and Whyte & Cos financial gain, as he knew full well that it's seizure and sale would not cover the costs and a proportion of the debt as per post#14 by ploddertom, imho, and he has left himself wide open for a Formal Complaint to Council CEO with a view to Ombudsman involvement.

Edited April 28, 2011 by brassnecked

[bunny64]

Unfortunately in the bedlam I didnt think to record that and he didnt put it in writing.I asked him what would happen if debt wasnt covered and he just said they would be back.

[bunny64]

Can anyone advise me again?

I went to court in March for unpaid council tax for 07.09 and 09.Part of the debt was remitted,council didnt get their costs and I agreed to pay £5 a week,In the meantime they took my car for 09/10(I only worked for 3 months that year),they still have the car.I asked my MP for help but she was useless.My partner is on ESA(joint claim).The DWP had a glitch and paid us late so on 2 occasions standing order wasnt paid.I have since paid it and paid the missing amounts.The council are taking me back to court on Monday unless I pay over £1000,which of course I dont have.I asked for a breakdown from council and they have included court costs which they were not awarded.I care for my partner full time and I am very worried about what may happen.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[brassnecked]

Are you totally reliant on benefits and do you get CTax benefit?, if so and you are on ESA income based with other top ups I,m sure you are vulnerable as a family but others will know more. Hallow and PT et al will be along soon I think

[bunny64]

Yes we are.Partner has a multitude of health problems incl severe depression.I lost my job last year because of it.Council have no sympathy what so ever.

[brassnecked]

Others can be more precise but as you are a carer for your partner, and, your remaining vehicle is on HP from Motability, you would fall within the vulnerable category under the National Association Of Enforcement Officers Guidelines 2002 imho:

from

 

http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/enforcement/bailiffs/standards.htm#part10

 

Vulnerable situations

 

 

• Enforcement agents/agencies and creditors must recognise that they each have a role in ensuring that the vulnerable and socially excluded are protected and that the recovery process includes procedures agreed between the agent/agency and creditor about how such situations should be dealt with. The appropriate use of discretion is essential in every case and no amount of guidance could cover every situation, therefore the agent has a duty to contact the creditor and report the circumstances in situations where there is potential cause for concern. If necessary, the enforcement agent will advise the creditor iffurther action is appropriate. The exercise of appropriate discretion is needed, not only to protect the debtor, but also the enforcement agent who should avoid taking action which could lead to accusations of inappropriate behaviour.
  
• Enforcement agents must withdraw from domestic premises if the only person present is, or appears to be, under the age of 18; they can ask when the debtor will be home - if appropriate.
  
• Enforcement agents must withdraw without making enquiries if the only persons present are children who appear to be under the age of 12.
  
• Wherever possible, enforcement agents should have arrangements in place for rapidly accessing translation services when these are needed, and provide on request information in large print or in Braille for debtors with impaired sight.
  
• Those who might be potentially vulnerable include:
  
  • the elderly;
    
  • people with a disability;
    
  • the seriously ill;
    
  • the recently bereaved;
    
  • single parent families;
    
  • pregnant women;
    
  • unemployed people; and,
    
  • those who have obvious difficulty in understanding, speaking or reading English.
    

   

The Council and the bailiff know this, and I am wondering if as ESA is a replacement for Incap, there is still misunderstanding as to it's scope

and whether it is a benefit that can have CTax arrears deducted from it at the nominal rate allowed from Income Support

 

Arrears of CTax CAN be deducted from ESA according to the pdf circular here:

 

Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit Circular

 

as detailed on Page 4.

 

I would write back to the head of revenues, council leader, CEO, and MP again even if you have already, pointing out your vulnerability, under the guidelines, the affect it is having onand copy the relevant part of the pdf to show that they can take it back and deduct from benefit. I'm sure the others will be along soon. Are CAB any good in this neck of the woods?

 

Imho it is completely rediculous for the council to carry on like this, and for the bailiffs to be adding fees, making the debt burden virtually unpayable, and is it right that the council spend more money to try to send you to prison for a debt you are unlikely to be able to pay eve,r how they keep adding fees. Is this an Ombudsman scenario I wonder, as it is obvious that any rrpayment plan set up by magistrates is likely to fail due to glitches in the benefit system,?

[bunny64]

I went to court today.Was taken back because I missed 1 payment because benefit money didnt go in.I made up the payment but left court today with a 28 day suspended prison sentance.This was for years 08 and 09.The magistrates refused to award the council their costs.I now have to fight the fact that my car was seized by bailiffs nearly a month agofor unpaid council tax from 2010-2011.The bill is £1200 even though I only worked from April to July in 2010 and have been on full benefit since then in a joint ESA claim for my seriously ill partner.The council wont tell me if my car has been auctioned yet,my MP was no help at all.The council have said they cannot take direct payments from the ESA because it is in my partners name and the council tax bill isnt as he has only lived with me since he became ill.I am not sure if I am classed as vulnerable,I care for my partner(without carers allowance because he was awarded DLA at lower rate,against which I am appealing)My eldest son is disabled.He does not live with me full time now but was in 2008 and 2009,and does visit home.I am at a loss what to do next,any advice much appreciated.

Thanks.