What SHOULD they have?

[Tingy]

I'm battling a little over 3 year old CT and bailiffs charges. Already had a good refund, but I'm now saying a print out saying a visit took place is not proof it actually did. (They repaid all levy fees on this basis as they had no paprework).

 

We had no paperwork through our door so don't believe they made their four visits. My question is, if they did make them, what record should they have of the visit? Should there be a carbon copy of what should have been posted through my door? If not, what proof should they have? I can't believe simply writing down it happened is sufficient back up proof from their side.

 

Definite answers only please. Thanks as always,

 

Tingy

[ploddertom]

Would this have been pre PDA or GPS possibly?

 

PT

[Tingy]

I can't see a bailiff proving where he was in 2007 using PDA or GPS. Any body know what should have been retained by them as proof of visit?

[ploddertom]

The letters they use are just mass printed leaflets and I doubt they ever keep copies. I assume you are putting them to strict proof of visits, therefore the Bailiff's notes should show what he was doing on a particular day and at what time. I have to keep all my records for a minimum of 6 years in case of query, as you know anyone can chase these fees going back 6 years as well, if they have binned them then I would argue that is their problem. Some of what should have been noted is house number or name, colour of door, location of any external goods. Should make for an interesting reply.

 

PT

[Tingy]

You asume right. All the SAR says is semi detached house - fair condition. Google Earth could tell you more than that.

[ploddertom]

You asume right. All the SAR says is semi detached house - fair condition. Google Earth could tell you more than that.

 

Is that just a general comment or does it have a specific date on it? Do you know of anyone else who was in a similar situation at that time, give them a tenner for their SAR and compare notes!

 

PT

[Tingy]

They have fabricated dates. They've already refunded all levy fees saying they have lost the paperwork (never was any!), so decided to go for fees. Rather hoped they'd have to have something concrete about the visit - we had no paperwork. They have admitted no paperwork re visits to the council and I have this in writing. Head of revenues refused refund today so I sent a letter to him copied in e-mail to CEO. Head of revenues condoned the bailiffs actions which I pointed out to the CEO includes charging for two visits on one day for different LO's - this is illegal and so he is laying the council open to litigation. Also pointed out had to wait three months for SAR from bailiffs and had to chase up other half (business side) of council SAR - they only sent domestic.

 

I would like to get the visit fees back as well - just need a way pretty sharpish!

[Thegreenpimpernel]

The fact that they have been caught out telling pork pies about the levy must count for something.

 

They have surely lost 'the benefit of the doubt' if anyone was naive enough to give it them in the first place.

[Tingy]

Sadly the council are saying it's unlucky the bailiffs lost the paperwork, but it has been three years, so they were making a gesture of goodwill refunding the levy fees (goodwill my ar5e). Both are trying a cover up and I've got to find a way to expose it. If they get away with it with me who (not boasting) is reasonably intelligent - 3 degrees, 2 post grads, endless diplomas - then heaven help the "ordinary" person round here. There has to be something they have to keep as evidence of visiting a house.

[ploddertom]

Sadly the council are saying it's unlucky the bailiffs lost the paperwork, but it has been three years, so they were making a gesture of goodwill refunding the levy fees (goodwill my ar5e). Both are trying a cover up and I've got to find a way to expose it. If they get away with it with me who (not boasting) is reasonably intelligent - 3 degrees, 2 post grads, endless diplomas - then heaven help the "ordinary" person round here. There has to be something they have to keep as evidence of visiting a house.

 

From what you say the Council obviously speak Bailiff. I assume you have tried FOI requests to the Council to elucidate how they keep track of their contractors actions. have you also tackled your Councillor(s) opinion on this, I agree the Council appear to leaving themselves wide open. I'm positive an article in the press may bring others into view in a similar position at the time.

 

Shame you waited so long for the SAR but appreciate hindsight is wonderful. I wonder if the Council could be accused of maladministration in this?

 

PT

[Tingy]

From what you say the Council obviously speak Bailiff. I assume you have tried FOI requests to the Council to elucidate how they keep track of their contractors actions. have you also tackled your Councillor(s) opinion on this, I agree the Council appear to leaving themselves wide open. I'm positive an article in the press may bring others into view in a similar position at the time.

 

Shame you waited so long for the SAR but appreciate hindsight is wonderful. I wonder if the Council could be accused of maladministration in this?

 

PT

 

Only waited as I didn't have the knowledge back then, hence my determination to see justice done. If they don't pay up after a letter to the CEO, maybe a letter to the press would be more productive than small claims court - council condoning illegal fees, bailiffs levying on goods with no paperwork to substantiate it. Even got the bailiffs claiming the fees are different in Wales than in England recorded on my Truecall AND in writing ..... hmmmm - I think I'd get some letters and would be able to put a fair bit of pressure on the council and bailiff firm. What do you reckon? Anyone interested in taking further action contact me through a designated e-mail. Now we're talking damage!

[ploddertom]

Hi Tingy

 

Whilst I appreciate where you are I think a two pronged attack is on the cards. If you are going to use the press you will need a national Welsh daily if there is such a thing - please excuse my ignorance - on top of this I think you may also need to contact the Daily Mail or similar. Part of your reasoning has to be along the lines of the day I came to see you - I did call but never left anything for you but charged you £80 for the privilege. Of course the National Standards for Enforcement Agents state in part:

"Enforcement agents will on each and every occasion when a visit is made to a debtor's property which incurs a fee for the debtor, leave a notice detailing the fees charged to date, including the one for that visit,...."

Taken from:

http://www.dca.gov.uk/enforcement/agents02.htm#part7

 

PT

[Tingy]

PT - you'll have to come and visit. The Welsh valleys are beautiful AND have several daily papers! I'd be happy to forego the visits money to really hit them - even better do both. If you knew the damage they did to our family at the time, you'd know why I feel so terribly vindictive towards them. Fortunately we pulled through, but only after losing the house, me never being able to work again through ill health (used to be a Headteacher!) and basically being toatlly plucked by them! I will never forgive them for their endless lies and the horrendous pressure they put us under to pay money we simply did not have. We borrowed what we could and it still wasn't enough; We made payment arrangements we could afford, then were accused of defaulting on them when we hadn't. They are nasty, evil people who deserve all they get.

[brassnecked]

PT - you'll have to come and visit. The Welsh valleys are beautiful AND have several daily papers! I'd be happy to forego the visits money to really hit them - even better do both. If you knew the damage they did to our family at the time, you'd know why I feel so terribly vindictive towards them. Fortunately we pulled through, but only after losing the house, me never being able to work again through ill health (used to be a Headteacher!) and basically being toatlly plucked by them! I will never forgive them for their endless lies and the horrendous pressure they put us under to pay money we simply did not have. We borrowed what we could and it still wasn't enough; We made payment arrangements we could afford, then were accused of defaulting on them when we hadn't. They are nasty, evil people who deserve all they get.

 

Wales is a beautiful country, I think that all bailiff complaints in Wales should go to the AMs as well as MP, and they should be reminded that if they win the vote today for extra powers WE expect them to act on ending this medieval legalised extortion. They are worse than King John and Robber Barons. Here in North Wales I see the white VW vans with bailiffs plying their trade on the housing estates. I challenged one going to a house where the family are on benefits and said they were prima facie vulnerable, he said So What! What a plonker.

 

Good luck in nailing these evil parasites Tingy

[hallowitch]

don't know if this will help you its an old post by tomtubby

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?214391

A Screen Shot is a VITAL document because it is the COMPUTER RECORD of you ENTIRE account and it will show the following:

Amount of Liability Order

Date received

Details of any telephone calls made to to bailiff co.

Details of messages etc from the local authority

Brief description of your house (colour of door etc)

Name of any bailiff who has visited your home.

Details of whether a person was at home or not.

Details of any "levy" made on goods to include a number plate of vehicle.

Full details of charges put onto your account and by which bailiff.

[Tingy]

Thanks HW,

 

They've already admitted they have no paperwork to back up any claimed visits. This was the reason they refunded levy charges, but where no levy took place I still think there should be something -eg- they have to leave paper through the doorway with fee incurred, and details about any future visits etc.... We have not had any of these, but we rather hoped they'd have to have a carbon copy of that they put through our door. If there was something we could put our finger on that should prove they've been there it would be perfect.

 

As regards the screenshot they've got a list (which we believe to be fabricated) which mentions the name, date and time of visits and a description of our house (semi-detached in reasonable condition). If they HAD to put details of windows or front door we've had those changed since, so could prove them wrong, but how many houses would fit that description? Funnily enough the visits where they said they'd levied they have refunded the money as they've "lost" the paperwork. The council's Head of Revenues is backing them up by condoning everything they've done and making a special mention of this "gesture of goodwill." Yep, it was so kind of them to give us our money back again at last.

 

I've sorted him though, as in giving the bailiffs his 100% support he's condoned illegal fees (two lots for the same thing on one day, and their phone call - so according to him the law is different in Wales than in England - he's even put it in writing). I'd have loved to be there today when the CEO received my e-mail informing him of his Head of Revenues knowledge of his job!

 

Thanks anyway, but sadly I don't think there'll be anything concrete enough in three for us to pin them down.

 

I'm of the opinion if we lose this battle we may need to go to the press with our story with an offer to check other people's fees for them free of charge. That would do some damage!

[ploddertom]

I'm of the opinion if we lose this battle we may need to go to the press with our story with an offer to check other people's fees for them free of charge. That would do some damage!

 

I think I would do it anyway!

 

PT

[silverfox1961]

I don't know if you have tried this but WAAAY back I contacted the Chief Executive of my council to let her know what her underlings were doing. The cascade downwards was felt a mile away and my (retrospecrtive) Housing Benefit was sorted within two weeks. This after two years of fighting with my council.

 

I have to check my spellings now I know what you used to be

[ploddertom]

 

They've already admitted they have no paperwork to back up any claimed visits. This was the reason they refunded levy charges, but where no levy took place I still think there should be something -eg- they have to leave paper through the doorway with fee incurred, and details about any future visits etc.... We have not had any of these, ........ so they don't abide by the National Standards for Enforcement Agents, also do the Council suggest they should.

 

 

PT

[Tingy]

SF - sent CEO e-mail yesterday pointing out his Head of revenues appeared to have no grasp of the law and was condoning illegal activity by their appointed bailiffs quoting a few examples. Would have loved to have been there today.

 

HT was 8 years ago now, so I'm not as gud at spelling az I woz, don't wurrie!

 

PT How do you fancy drafting a press article?

[ploddertom]

 

PT How do you fancy drafting a press article?

 

One should go cap in hand to my OH as this is something she has done in a previous life, I will be suggestive to her.

 

PT

[Tingy]

It would be very good for her to see if she still has the golden touch!

[Thegreenpimpernel]

"I'm of the opinion if we lose this battle we may need to go to the press with our story with an offer to check other people's fees for them free of charge. That would do some damage!"

 

Hopefully. Great minds and all that......

 

I've been planing to put an advert in our local paper, and do a leaflet drop (with the support of my printer neighbor) to the same effect.

 

I'm trying to finalize the wording, but to the effect of seeking people who have been subject to bailiff action in the last six years.

 

I also need the backing of a local solicitor if things get contested. I'm not allowed to represent people in court.

 

Hope to have all this in place by the summer.

 

It seems that my local fraudsters routinely add up-to £300 van fee on every first visit.

 

6 years x 350 bailiff actions / year (small town) x £300 x 0.2(?) Hit rate = Pain for bailiff.

[Tingy]

And I know damn well there's a lot of people here in trouble with council tax who know me well enough to trust me!

[Thegreenpimpernel]

Trust.

 

That's a good point.

 

With the sullied reputation of debt reduction / management companies fresh in the minds of the public, i would expect the average person to reasonably assume it was some sort of [problem], or contain hidden costs somewhere down the line.

 

Needs some thought...

 

EDIT - Did that cagbot thing just censor my post? The word it has replaced with 'problem' was [problem]pi minus the 'pi' at the end.

What's that all about?

 

EDIT2 - Its done it again, but this time it censored the word ending in 'pi'!!!! The word goes into the phrase "----pi and chips". Comes wholetail or reformed, and is sold in the frozen section. What the heck is that about? Are we allowed to say 'lobster'?

Edited March 5, 2011 by Thegreenpimpernel